Golden Arrow - 100K Light

My Golden Arrow’s “100,000” point light is turning on at 91k points. PCB on 10k reel looks fine, clean, rotating contact seems to be in correct position (same as my Jacks Open, which is working fine). My thought is must be an issue with PCB or contact alignment, but not seeing it yet, looking at schematics I can see JX needs to activate and is done when 9th position on 10k reel is achieved (so with 91k this requirement is met) and the “Add 10k’s Unit” switch closes, but I’m not understanding the “Add 10k’s Unit” switch, is this driven by the 9 advancing to zero on the 1k reel, and if so, as this is not advancing early can this somehow be part of my issue or should I go back and dig deeper into the 10k score reel, PCB, and rotating contact? I did look to see if any shorting of wires on the PCB and don’t see anything odd. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks again,

Matt

#2 16 days ago

MarkG

The "On Add 10k's Unit" switch is mounted at the bottom of the 10k score reel with the End Of Stroke (EOS) switch. The EOS switch opens when the plunger pulls in and the "On Add 10k's Unit" switch closes. If that switch is stuck closed or shorted I think you'd get the behavior you've described.

/Mark

#3 16 days ago

MDF

frenchmarky

Pinside member

Moreno Valley, CA

5y 81,800 3,169 7 30

Make sure the top switch of the switch stack inside the 1000 reel is not closing early. It should only close at position '9'. If it was closing early or was stuck closed it could cause the 100K relay to trigger as soon as the score hit 91K. But then I'd think you would be seeing messed-up scoring too so...

#4 16 days ago

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mdo1998

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Quoted from MarkG:
The "On Add 10k's Unit" switch is mounted at the bottom of the 10k score reel with the End Of Stroke (EOS) switch. The EOS switch opens when the plunger pulls in and the "On Add 10k's Unit" switch closes. If that switch is stuck closed or shorted I think you'd get the behavior you've described.
/Mark

Mark,

Seems my switches are operating in reverse to how you indicated, EOS is closing, and Add 10k is opening, when plunger activates; see attached pics. It’s a bit hard to see, but looks like the EOS is the switch closest to the reel, and this switch is open normally and closing when plunger actives, and “add 10k” the YEL+BL & SL-WH is closest to the bracket and is closed normally, and opens when plunger activates. Any thoughts?

Matt

IMG_0889 (resized).jpeg

IMG_0890 (resized).jpeg

IMG_0891 (resized).jpeg

#5 16 days ago

MarkG

Agreed. You could compare to the EOS switches on the other score reels but it looks like your assessment is correct. If you block the "Add" switch, does the 100k light no longer light at 91k (or ever for that matter)?

Your switch stack may have been removed and reinstalled incorrectly at some point. The inner two switch blades appear to have been incorrectly adjusted too.

#6 16 days ago

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mdo1998

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Quoted from MarkG:
Agreed. You could compare to the EOS switches on the other score reels but it looks like your assessment is correct. If you block the "Add" switch, does the 100k light no longer light at 91k (or ever for that matter)?
Your switch stack may have been removed and reinstalled incorrectly at some point. The inner two switch blades appear to have been incorrectly adjusted too.

I was wondering if maybe somebody had removed the switch stack and put it back in a “flipped” position. If the others are working as you have described, should I remove the switch stack and simply flip it? If it had been flipped, both of these switches would be working incorrectly and as such should I see other issues, as I don’t see any other issues whatsoever, the only fault with this pinball is this 100k light and I’ve been ignoring it for the six months I’ve owned it as everything else is working so nicely.

#7 16 days ago

MarkG

I think it may have been disassembled and reassembled wrong. Compare yours to this one:
Gottlieb Score Reel EOS switches (resized).jpg
I can't claim that this is a good reference, but notice that on this one:
- the plastic insulator has a phenolic spacer between it and the frame
- both switches have just one spacer between the blades
- all of the blades are fairly straight coming out of the switch stack

You probably just need to take it apart and see if you can get it back together in a way where the EOS switch opens and the Add switch closes when the plunger pulls in.

#8 16 days ago

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mdo1998

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Quoted from MarkG:
I think it may have been disassembled and reassembled wrong. Compare yours to this one:
[quoted image]
I can't claim that this is a good reference, but notice that on this one:
- the plastic insulator has a phenolic spacer between it and the frame
- both switches have just one spacer between the blades
- all of the blades are fairly straight coming out of the switch stack
You probably just need to take it apart and see if you can get it back together in a way where the EOS switch opens and the Add switch closes when the plunger pulls in.

Perfect! Thanks again, always appreciated.

Matt

#9 16 days ago

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mdo1998

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Quoted from MarkG:
I think it may have been disassembled and reassembled wrong. Compare yours to this one:
[quoted image]
I can't claim that this is a good reference, but notice that on this one:
- the plastic insulator has a phenolic spacer between it and the frame
- both switches have just one spacer between the blades
- all of the blades are fairly straight coming out of the switch stack
You probably just need to take it apart and see if you can get it back together in a way where the EOS switch opens and the Add switch closes when the plunger pulls in.

Wow, much harder to disassemble than I would have envisioned, luckily I have some “spare” parts to replace some of the broken pieces. I may just build a new switch stack on the bench and solder the four wires onto fresh blades vs. trying to save what I’ve got. Interesting I looked at my other Gottlieb’s and a general theme is the EOS on the 10k reels are messed-up, missing contacts, never making contact as adjusted wrong. Only one of four was correct. Surprised this causes no issue. I assume the EOS turns off the power to the plunger, if that’s correct, any idea why I’m NOT having problems on the other machines? On the others the 10k “add” switches are working correctly, unlike on Golden Arrow. Is the EOS more of a safety switch vs. a “must” work switch, as if not, I’m lost why I don’t have other issues.

#10 16 days ago

MDF

frenchmarky

Pinside member

Moreno Valley, CA

5y 81,800 3,169 7 30

OP
Quoted from mdo1998:
I assume the EOS turns off the power to the plunger, if that’s correct, any idea why I’m NOT having problems on the other machines?

The EOS is there to make sure the reel plunger does a full pulse during scoring no matter what. If the EOS is broken off/stuck open the reel will still be pulsed, but it could miss some rapid or very short scoring because the reel might not pull in all the way, since its scoring relay isn't being locked on by the EOS. Reset wouldn't be affected either since it doesn't go thru the EOSs. Now if some EOS switches were stuck *closed*, yeah then reels/relays would be locking up.

#11 16 days ago

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mdo1998

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Quoted from frenchmarky:
The EOS is there to make sure the reel plunger does a full pulse during scoring no matter what. If the EOS is broken off/stuck open the reel will still be pulsed, but it could miss some rapid or very short scoring because the reel might not pull in all the way, since its scoring relay isn't being locked on by the EOS. Reset wouldn't be affected either since it doesn't go thru the EOSs. Now if some EOS switches were stuck *closed*, yeah then reels/relays would be locking up.

Thanks for the explanation, it’s appreciated.

Matt

#12 15 days ago

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mdo1998

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OP
Quoted from mdo1998:
Perfect! Thanks again, always appreciated.
Matt

Mark,

I made the changes as you described, replacing the switch stack with one in much nicer condition, and rewiring correctly. However, I still encounter the problem, but I now notice the 10k reel is not fully advancing from 8 to 9, maybe 80% of the way, I believe this is a new condition, if I manually advance the reel to the full 9 position location the 100k lite only appears at 100k, so all is indeed wired correctly, and provided I can adjust the 10k score reel, which I’m certain I can do, I can solve this issue.

My question, does the EOS play any role in advancing the score reel, meaning could my new EOS be the cause of the score reel not fully advancing from 8 to 9? I ask, as I really don’t believe this was an issue before.

If not related, I’ll disassemble the score reel, clean and so forth, adjust the 0, 1-8, and 9 switches if needed, I just wanted to make sure I was not jumping to another conclusion and if I need to focus on the EOS instead.

As always, thanks, Matt

#13 15 days ago

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mdo1998

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Replacement “switch stack” on right for reference.

IMG_0913 (resized).jpeg

#14 15 days ago

MarkG

OP
Quoted from mdo1998:
does the EOS play any role in advancing the score reel, meaning could my new EOS be the cause of the score reel not fully advancing from 8 to 9?

frenchmarky described this in reply #10. The EOS switch on any score reel is intended to keep the current running through the score reel coil until the plunger is pulled all the way in:
Golden Arrow 1000 point EOS switch (resized).jpg

Point relays are often driven by momentary switch closures on the playfield. Switches behind targets, rebound rubbers, under pop bumpers, etc. close very briefly and may not activate the point relay long enough for it to energize the score reel coil and fully pull in the score reel plunger. So point relays (and many other relays) used what's called a Lock In circuit to extend how long the relay remains active. In the example above, any 1000 point target (not shown) can activate the L/1000 Point relay. But once activated, the L relay closes its own Lock In switch (labeled "L") to keep itself on until the EOS switch on the score reel (here labeled "On Add 1000's Unit") opens and lets the 1000 point relay relax.

It's a feedback mechanism where the 1000 Point relay sends current to the score reel coil until the score reel lets the 1000 Point relay know that it has done all it can do (pulled its plunger all the way in) and doesn't need any more current.

If the EOS switch is always open, you don't get the extended pulse width that the Lock In circuit provides. You're left with a pulse to the score reel coil that's only as long as the playfield switch is closed which may be enough, but isn't reliably so.

If the EOS switch were a problem I'd expect to see the score reel occasionally fail to advance on any digit not just 8 to 9. More likely the score reel is having trouble closing the 9th position switch. There may be some extra friction in the score reel or too much tension on the 9th position switch.

For more details about how score reels and lock in circuits work you might want to watch a seminar that David Volansky and I presented last month at GSPF:

We explain, build and demonstrate scoring circuits from the ground up with real hardware.

#15 14 days ago

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mdo1998

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Quoted from MarkG:
frenchmarky described this in reply #10. The EOS switch on any score reel is intended to keep the current running through the score reel coil until the plunger is pulled all the way in:
[quoted image]
Point relays are often driven by momentary switch closures on the playfield. Switches behind targets, rebound rubbers, under pop bumpers, etc. close very briefly and may not activate the point relay long enough for it to energize the score reel coil and fully pull in the score reel plunger. So point relays (and many other relays) used what's called a Lock In circuit to extend how long the relay remains active. In the example above, any 1000 point target (not shown) can activate the L/1000 Point relay. But once activated, the L relay closes its own Lock In switch (labeled "L") to keep itself on until the EOS switch on the score reel (here labeled "On Add 1000's Unit") opens and lets the 1000 point relay relax.
It's a feedback mechanism where the 1000 Point relay sends current to the score reel coil until the score reel lets the 1000 Point relay know that it has done all it can do (pulled its plunger all the way in) and doesn't need any more current.
If the EOS switch is always open, you don't get the extended pulse width that the Lock In circuit provides. You're left with a pulse to the score reel coil that's only as long as the playfield switch is closed which may be enough, but isn't reliably so.
If the EOS switch were a problem I'd expect to see the score reel occasionally fail to advance on any digit not just 8 to 9. More likely the score reel is having trouble closing the 9th position switch. There may be some extra friction in the score reel or too much tension on the 9th position switch.
For more details about how score reels and lock in circuits work you might want to watch a seminar that David Volansky and I presented last month at GSPF:
We explain, build and demonstrate scoring circuits from the ground up with real hardware.

Excellent, thanks so much for the detailed response, very helpful.

#16 14 days ago

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mdo1998

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