2001
Gottlieb, 1971Just got a Great Pin, but I can't get this thing off tilt. Was working great last night, Tilted a couple times, game ends, not just the ball. Would start when hitting start button again. Then now, fired it up and can't get it to start a game. Tilt light is on. Plumb bob is not stuck, wiring to plumb bob assembly looks clean. Captive tilt ball is towards front of cabinet, leaf is open, bottom cabint slam tilt is open.
Could use Help Please!
Thank you.
Some quick things to try:
- manually reset the Control Bank (the Tilt relay, TB, is there), then try
- try putting credits on it
- try the left and right coin chute switches
- try the Start relay directly
Basically, to get it out of Tilt, the Control Bank needs to reset, and the Control Bank resets when the SB relay trips. The SB relay trips via the Start relay energizing, and the quick steps above try to work around that to see if the game can work itself back into the right state.
But if after trying those things above a game still won't start, then note which steps had what result and report back.
Check inside the door or on cabinet bottom for a normally closed tilt switch. These are often tarnished and need cleaning.
Quoted from DirtFlipper:- manually reset the Control Bank (the Tilt relay, TB, is there), then try
When I do this it gets stuck open, there are no springs missing. I have to tap the leaf "TB" tilt relay to get it to go back. The wheel keeps moving to reset in front till I tap the leaf.
- It takes credits, there's only one coin chute, the others are closed off and no coin mech.
-The start buttons runs the cycle, moves that arm in line with the 'TB, but reamain on tilt after about a second.
Now in response to cody, There appears to be no slam tilt on coin door. Plumb assembly, bottom of cabinet, and back box. They all have a 1/4 inch gap, I think that's closed?. No loose wires are visible
Thanks To both of you.
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:When I do this it gets stuck open, there are no springs missing. I have to tap the leaf "TB" tilt relay to get it to go back. The wheel keeps moving to reset in front till I tap the leaf.
What gets stuck open?
The goal is to not have TB tripped, since that is in Tilt mode. When you tap that switch, that's Tilting it again.
At the normal end of a game, the DB and XB relays would be tripped on the Control Bank. Then when a new game is started:
- SB trips,
- the whole Control Bank resets,
- the score motor runs while the score reels reset to zero,
- on completion of the score reels resetting, DB trips and the score motor stops running.
At that point, only DB should be tripped.
So if the score motor is running after you've manually reset the Control Bank, that's normal until the score reels reset to 0. Are the score reels resetting?
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:The start buttons runs the cycle, moves that arm in line with the 'TB, but reamain on tilt after about a second.
I interpret this as meaning that pressing the button on the coin starts to reset the game, the reset bar on the Control Bank resets the bank, but TB is tripping again right away and the game enters back into Tilt mode. Is that correct?
There are four tilt switches indicated on the schematic. I think that would be:
- the tilt bob
- the ball roll tilt
- and probably two weighted switches (with large silver weights on the end), maybe one under the playfield and one either on the score motor board or in the backbox
The tilt switches should all be normally open. There will also be an Anti-cheat switch with a silver weight on it, but it should be normally closed. It will be on the score motor board.
If one of the four tilt switches is closed, then that might cause the behavior, since it was previously working.
It would be helpful to know if TB is tripping on its own after the Control Bank resets during start though, as the only thing that causes TB to trip is one of those four open tilts closing.
Found all 4 tilt switches, they shold all have a gap, 1/8th inch, Correct? Quick qustion and am working on above post
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:Found all 4 tilt switches, they shold all have a gap, 1/8th inch, Correct? Quick qustion and am working on above post
yes, more or less. (The ball roll and tilt bob can't really have switch gaps per se, but close enough.) 
OK, the tilt has vanished. Now when I start the game and score first points, that motor in back, the coil is locking up and not scoring points. Fuse? But it wouldn't fire
Quoted from cody_chunn:Check inside the door or on cabinet bottom for a normally closed tilt switch. These are often tarnished and need cleaning.
The one on the coin door & cab bottom should be normally closed. Seems like you always see people having issues with those.
by closed, you mean with a gap in between?
Quoted from dasvis:The one on the coin door & cab bottom should be normally closed
there's one behind the staert button, and the start button doesn't touch it when pressed. It is touching it's leaf, but it looks right, I don't want to go bending leaf's till i check with you guys. Thanks all for help today. Dirt flipper has gone beyond the call of duty, thank you sir for your help as I solve this.
Quoted from dasvis:They should be normally touching.
To confirm, this is for bottom of cabinet only! It should be touching it's 2 leaf's? It has a gap currently. The coin door one is touching it's neighbor leaf, bottom cabinet is not.
The coin door one is normally closed, so leave that one alone. That one is an anti-cheat switch, not a tilt switch. Tilt switches are normally open (with a decent gap).
"Normally closed" = the contact points are touching together.
So what's it doing now? Starts up and plays a game, but then one of the score reels locks on? What motor in back? (there's no motor in the backbox).
Quoted from dasvis:Yes, bottom cab switch should be touching. try it & see!
Not sure if the bottom cab one on 2001 is a tilt or a bounce switch. I think it might be tilt, and should not be touching.
Forgive me, Had to Do Dinner thing. Last post for the night and I will hit this tomorrow after work.
Tilt is staying off. Will add a picture after this post of where it is sitting at end of game mode. When I start a game, it goes through it's cycle and sends a ball to shooter rod. I shoot it, and no matter what point it hits, in the back cab the coil on the rotating wheel is locking up and not scoring points to the 4 reels. It stays locked on, till I shut game off. Don't want to hurt fuses any further, wondering if I should re-fuse machine now. When I turn game off, then on, it stays in same game, and continues to do it. Tried to run cycle, not letting ball score points, to reset at end of game. Thus the picture below, an coil locking up. Thank you Both.
That looks like the 0-9 Unit (used for Match).
If the game is set to 3-ball, then it steps via switches on either the N or M relays (1 and 10 point relays).
If the game is set to 5-ball, then it steps via a switch on the L relay (100 point relay).
But it shouldn't energize at all unless one of those paths is active. Is the game set on 3-ball or 5-ball? And when this unit locks up, are any of the N, M, or L relays also locked on?
Quoted from DirtFlipper:Not sure if the bottom cab one on 2001 is a tilt or a bounce switch. I think it might be tilt, and should not be touching.
Dirt is your guy, I assumed that's how they all were as the last four I have worked on were set up as normally closed.
He's way more knowledgeable than I on such matters!
Game is set on 3 balls. It seems the game set relay isn't closing back towards housing all the time. I have to hit the start button 2 or 3 times to get it into game mode. I will check those later and report back tonight. In picture 1 nad 2 above I tried to show that relay, and the TB relay half cocked ready to tilt is what I would call "in the middle, ready to togglt either direction. Like you said yesterday, when I trip that it goes into tilt. The reset relay seems to be also in middle, at start up should it go back towards housing? Off to work. Thank you Dirtflipper. Eric
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:Game is set on 3 balls.
So then I'd expect either N or M to be stuck on, which means either a scoring feature is stuck on the playfield, or a score reel isn't opening its EOS switch to deactivate the relay. You'll have to note whether it's N or M, then can track down what's causing that.
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:It seems the game set relay isn't closing back towards housing all the time.
What do you mean by "game set relay"? Not following this description. Do you mean the Control Bank? Is it not fully resetting all the relays there?
Oh, and since the 0-9 Unit 'lock up' doesn't occur until after some points are scored, that means it's not going to be a stuck scoring feature on the playfield, but rather a problem with either the N or M lock-in path not opening.
So first need to determine if it's N or M (can manually activate one or the other, and see which one locks on), then need to determine if the correspond score reel coil activates (pulls in the plunger).
If the score reel doesn't activate, then check the switches on the points relay (N or M, whichever one). A switch there needs to close to activate the feel. A cold solder joint may have caused the wire to come off.
If the score reel does activate, but doesn't "let go", then check to see if the EOS is opening when the plunger pulls in. It needs to open to break the path to N or M.
Quoted from DirtFlipper:Do you mean the Control Bank? Is it not fully resetting all the relays there?
Yes the relay marked "game set relay" on the control bank.To answer that question.
N and M appear to be normal but are not moving after any point hit, seems to be stopping at the wheel I shot above in back box, N and M are right there above it and to the right. I can't get them to manually move when tapping tagets, not sure how to in backbox by hand, already afraid to touch this swiss clock. We seem close here got the tilt understood. Thank you for your help, sorry first EM, makes TAF seem easy.
N and M have these armature plates with a plastic 'ladder stack' on it, and the switches fit into slots on the ladder stack.
When the relay energizes, it pulls in that armature plate and holds it until the corresponding score reel advances, then the relay lets go and the spring at the back of the armature plate pulls the plate back up.
The 0-9 Unit (that 'wheel' you pictured) can only advance if either N or M energize (with the game set to 3-ball), so one (or both) of N or M must be energizing.
So without touching anything on the playfield, instead gently press down the ladder stack on N and see if it energizes and 'grabs hold' of the plate. The score reel should advance, and N should then let go. At the same time, that 0-9 unit should advance.
If N works OK and nothing gets stuck on, then do the same thing with M.
One of them might work, while the other is getting stuck. Need to determine which one.
Sadly, they both appear to be getting stuck on. I gently pulled down, I saw that wheel advance once, then N wasn't letting go, the springs are both there unbent and look normal. M did the same thing. The scoring wheels do not advance. I can manually move them, and when game resets, they go back to 0.
I'm out of time today and can update tonight. Thank you for the baby steps. I really can't thank you enough. I still think were close.
Have a Great Day Eric.
I saw your collection, VERY NIce! Maybe it would help if I shot a video and uploaded to youtube or something? I also saw you have a 2001, I don't know, might help for you to see it in action? Eric
So next need to determine if N and M are activating the coil for their respective score reels:
Quoted from DirtFlipper:then need to determine if the correspond score reel coil activates (pulls in the plunger).
If the score reel doesn't activate, then check the switches on the points relay (N or M, whichever one). A switch there needs to close to activate the reel. A cold solder joint may have caused the wire to come off.
If the score reel does activate, but doesn't "let go", then check to see if the EOS is opening when the plunger pulls in. It needs to open to break the path to N or M.
What this means is that when you activate N (or M), watch the plunger on the corresponding score reel to see if it pulls in. If it doesn't, then the switch on N (or M) isn't sending the signal to it. If the plunger does pull in, then the EOS switch must not be opening. This is switch next to the plunger on the score reel.
The score reel reset path doesn't use any of that, so reset won't be affected.
Ok, slowly getting this. Thank you again. My problem, no volume control. I had sleeping 9 year old last night and I'm off to work for 2 busy days. I should have a chance to work on this Friday morning and report back. I think I get it, re-read your post 10 times.
I believe, the plunger is not pulling in to turn score reel. Maybe this is why that wheel unit moves once, then doesn't let go it's coil, keeping locked on? Do I have that right?
Eric
The Little Chief I did recently had the chime coil wires PULLED off of the coil lugs. The cloth insulation was all bunched up and the wires were pulled straight and broken at different lengths.
I guess they missed the jones plug connector right under the chime unit.
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:I believe, the plunger is not pulling in to turn score reel. Maybe this is why that wheel unit moves once, then doesn't let go it's coil, keeping locked on? Do I have that right?
The operation of the "wheel unit" (it's the "0-9 Unit") is separate from the score reels, and in this case it's getting locked on as a side effect of N and M getting locked on. Once the issue with N and M getting locked on is solved, the 0-9 Unit will work OK.
So for now can ignore the 0-9 Unit, and focus on the score reels operating with N and M.
In fact, if you set the game to 5-ball mode, then the 0-9 Unit will stop locking on while you debug the N/M relay issues. (Although may as well test the L relay too then, as it will step the 0-9 Unit instead of N or M.)
Quoted from DirtFlipper:So first need to determine if it's N or M (can manually activate one or the other, and see which one locks on), then need to determine if the correspond score reel coil activates (pulls in the plunger).
N and M are getting locked on, and the reels do not move to score points. I set the game to 5 ball, 0-9 stepper unit does not lock on, infact it advances normally. L does not advance it's reel either, but does not lock on. I hit a 100 point target and L moved 3 times, reel did not move. However, N and M do lock on when either I touch the L stepper plastic, or hit 100 point target. I have searched and searched for a broken wire, loose wire, anything. I would say, I'm no expert, but they all look like original solders. All wires going from N,M, and L to scoring reels look good. Will continue to look for a wire till I hear back from you. I have a few hours this moring.
Infact, If you think a 5 minute call would help, I'd really appreciate it. Trying to see if i bumped anything looking for that first Tilt issue. Frustrating for sure on my end. Thanks Eric
Going to Pm you with phone number.
Need to ponder this one a bit. So basically none of the points relays (N, M, or L) are able to even activate the score reel coils, but the score reels do work for reset.
Very unlikely then that each points relay has a problem, so there has to be something in common that's simple.
Off to think a bit.
OK, so I do see one possibility that would prevent the four points relays (N, M, L, and K), the knocker, and the F relay from all working.
On the Hold relay ('R') there's a make/break switch that needs to be closed to complete a path to all of the above coils. Normally this coil is on, and that make/break switch diverts the path to either those coils, or to the Tilt relay (TB).
If the TB relay isn't tripped (and game isn't in Tilt), then that suggests that make/break switch is at least opening the contacts that feed Tilt, but perhaps isn't closing the contacts that enable the other path.
So have a look at the switch on R (it's the only switch R has), and make sure it's closing the contacts when the armature is pulled in, and that the contacts are clean, no loose wire there, etc. R is located on the bottom cabinet board.
Are you checked out on cleaning and adjusting switches and reading schematics? You're going to need some of the basic EM skills or you'll end up creating other "symptoms" as you move around the machine checking this stuff out.
Oh , I can feel it...were very close. "R", is not moving at all to pull it's leafs. I hit test score, got all reels to move. Because i was holding R in, to touch middle leaf and leaf closest to coil. When I reset game, or hit start button, I never see that coil pull R. Did a varity of point and outlane points, never saw it move. I assume knowing these swithches a little, that middle leaf and leaf closet to coil should have a gap till point is scored, coil pulls in makes connection. The outer leaf should be touching middle one until this happens? Did I get that right or should all 3 leafs be touching all time, but that doesn't sound right.
Quoted from Wickerman2:Are you checked out on cleaning and adjusting switches and reading schematics?
Yes, and yes, don't have schematics for this machine yet.
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:Did I get that right or should all 3 leafs be touching all time, but that doesn't sound right.
look at the pull in action and then look at the length of the switches...it pulls in, so, short leaf towards "outside" edge is closed at rest since it won't move when the coil pulls it in...long leaf towards "outside" edge WILL get pulled when coil activates so that's open at rest...either normally closed or normally open, get them clean and doing their job and it should be set.
To activate R, a switch on S needs to close, and the Bounce Switch needs to be closed. The Bounce Switch would be on the bottom cabinet board with the silver weight on it.
Which I think brings us full circle. Are there two switches with silver weights on the cabinet board? The Bounce Switch would have Slate-Green wire on one side. That one needs to be closed. Tilt switches need to be open (and there should be four total; tilt bob, ball roll, under playfield, and one more somewhere).
Quoted from DirtFlipper:The Bounce Switch would have Slate-Green wire on one side.
It doesn't have green wire, BUT... I closed it..., after opening it 4 days ago..(Dumb new EM owner). I thought it was one of the tilts.
Quoted from DirtFlipper:Tilt switches need to be open (and there should be four total; tilt bob, ball roll, under playfield, and one more somewhere).
Tilts= #1-plumb bob, #2- level ball roller,#3- under playfield, almost the top of playfield right side, towards bottom with playfield up, and number #4? I can only find 4 weighted leaf swithces, #3 in tilts, coin door, backbox just under score reels, and the one on bottom of cabinet. Lets eliminate bottom cabinet as a Tilt! and call backbox fourth tilt for now. your opinion on that? I will tell you why, bring us back to opening of this reply. I closed it "Bounce Switch", now for the first time I saw R pull in and hold. I knew I was in a game, so I touched some targets and watched scoreing reels move. Then I took a moment to really bend back bottom cabinet "Bounce Switch". Did a game reset, Lowerd playfield, added ball, and played 3 games!!!!VICTORY!!!!!!.
WOW, and I exhailed. I cant thank you enough! Walking me through the game this week , with your guidence, it made me appreciate you and pinside even more. Did I say Thank You!? Also shout outs to all that contributed and helped me in this thread. Dirtflipper was my moderator mentor and I really appreciate your time to respond to threads and requests for help. Thank You Thank You.
Have had, come and go, 20 some odd pins through the years. Here's some good Wickerman wisdom for all new EM owners.
Quoted from Wickerman2:You're going to need some of the basic EM skills or you'll end up creating other "symptoms" as you move around the machine checking this stuff out.
This is my first EM, Loved the art and backglass, played 10 games before purchase, and it felt good. Carefully got it home, put head back back on, all was fine till I moved it around a few times on pinball dolly. In looking over machine and looking for tilts, lord knows what i bumped, and opened that bounce switch. But though the week I learned some Em, learned this game inside out now. Learned much from pinside and internet, good way to jump all the way in on your first EM game.
A couple unanswered questions. Is the backbox weighted leaf switch the fourth tilt? Is "R" ok? It's the one thing I've had to touch the most in this event. Tilt relay arm or TB, still not sure if it's in it's home , or reset position? Have not tried a manual tilt yet, kinda don't want to. Weighted leaf switch count, I only find 4, is that right? Where can I buy a manual, best place to download one, seen a couple sights? Lastly, the R relay coil. It looks a little burnt, when I removed it I saw some char markes on housing wall, no others have that. I also can't fully read the burnt lable, the others I can read. This R coil, I think is A-9738#31? If so, the others are different on that bank.
Just went a played another before sending this. NICE!!!
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:It looks a little burnt
a lot of the "always on" type coils will get a little fried looking and buzz...you can replace or swap with another relay if it bugs you.
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:I moved it around a few times on pinball dolly.
This. The dolly pushes up the bottom panel of the game and pushes up the Bounce switch (the silver dot on the Bounce switch faces 'down' to the cabinet). Folks moving EMs with dollys encounter this or the knockoff switch (pre-on/off switch) a lot.
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:Is the backbox weighted leaf switch the fourth tilt?
If it's normally open, then yes, that's likely it. The schematic shows four normally open tilt switches.
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:Where can I buy a manual
http://www.pbresource.com/mansch.html
They aren't available for download:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/do-you-need-a-schematic-andor-manual-for-a-gottlieb-pinball-machine
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:It doesn't have green wire
SL-GR, or Slate-Green, meaning Slate with a Green tracer color.
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:This R coil, I think is A-9738
Yes, R is an A-9738. Pinball Resource has those too. If it's not buzzing too badly yet, it's fine.
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/2001-gottlieb-cant-get-off-tilt and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.
Twin Cities, MN