(Topic ID: 346993)

1972 Gottlieb Grand Slam help

By Borderhalofreak

5 months ago


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  • 11 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 months ago by scasten
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Grand Slam Ball Count Zero Position switch (resized).jpg
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#1 5 months ago

Hello! Just started work on a 1972 Grand Slam machine, and I wanted to get some help and opinions before tearing into it as it will be my first EM pinball I've worked on. The machine had certainly been sitting a while before coming to me; all the playfield rubber was fallen off and thrown about the board, dust and first everywhere, ball itself was rusty, etc. I cleaned it all up, checked all the fuses and fixed any obvious issues in the wiring, then went to start it up to see what was/wasn't working. The main motor switch made it's full rotation and came to a stop in it's resting position, start relay activated and the start motor also made it's way around, ball count motor in the rear resets itself, all the playfield lights came on, and it spat the ball in to the shooter and then... nothing else. None of the scroll wheels on the back box reset themselves, and all of the playfield targets, switches, flippers, etc. remained unpowered. I've tried looking through other forum posts but couldn't find explanations of quite the issue I'm having (everybody seems to say that if the back scrolls don't reset, the main switch motor will constantly turn, mine doesn't reset the scores but still comes to a stop?), and I've read through the instruction booklet that was included with the machine but it is relatively vague. I've worked on a couple solid state pinballs previously and have plenty of experience working on other period EM machinery so I'd love to fix it up myself if anybody has suggestions to try out. Some general pics of the machine included in case I'm missing something obvious. Thanks! IMG_20231117_074551802_HDR (resized).jpgIMG_20231117_074551802_HDR (resized).jpg IMG_20231117_074600049 (resized).jpgIMG_20231117_074600049 (resized).jpg IMG_20231117_074614577 (resized).jpgIMG_20231117_074614577 (resized).jpg

#2 5 months ago
Quoted from Borderhalofreak:

ball itself was rusty

The most important thing is to replace the ball because your old ball will damage the irreplaceable playfield.
I'm busy now but I'll have a look at the rest of your message when I have time.

#3 5 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

The most important thing is to replace the ball because your old ball will damage the irreplaceable playfield.
I'm busy now but I'll have a look at the rest of your message when I have time.

Definitely! Especially with the ball in that condition and all the dead rubber, I didn't even shoot it down the field--just looking at was/wasn't working. Once I get all the switches working properly I'll be going through cleaning up the playfield, new ball, fresh rubber all around before actually playing on it.

#4 5 months ago

Welcome to Pinside. It sounds like there are at least two different issues. The ball in the shooter lane but the playfield is dead issue could be explained by a Zero Position switch on the Ball Count Unit:
Grand Slam Ball Count Zero Position switch (resized).jpgGrand Slam Ball Count Zero Position switch (resized).jpg
Until that switch closes all of the playing and scoring features will be disabled.

The Score Reels rely on the Z/Reset relay firing during the reset sequence. It should fire until they've all reset to zero. Does it fire at all?

/Mark

#5 5 months ago

Very cool. I love working on abandoned EM machines that don't play games. Really fun to get them working again. I'm not an expert, but I always start by getting the schematic and owners manual for the machine. The owner's manual has the start-up sequence. I always follow that sequence to see where things seem to stop functioning.

I also always take a few minutes to clean the relay switches with a file, sandpaper, or dremel tool with a wire brush. The dremel is my favorite method now. After cleaning the switches, I spend some time activating the relays by hand with the power off to make sure they are opening and closing properly and making contact when they open and close.

Taking some time to clean up the score reels is always important. There are some great videos on YouTube that talk about the score reel adjustment.

This is my favorite EM resource https://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#reels

Pinwiki is also a good place to look for some help. https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair#Gottlieb.C2.AE_Decagon_.28Early_Design.29_Score_Reel_Overhaul

The stepper units that control ball count and player sometimes cause problems and can be a little tricky to get right. I've had a few Gottlieb machines need cleaning and adjustment to get the games to play right. That stepper unit in the bottom right of the head is the one.

#6 5 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Welcome to Pinside. It sounds like there are at least two different issues. The ball in the shooter lane but the playfield is dead issue could be explained by a Zero Position switch on the Ball Count Unit:
[quoted image]
Until that switch closes all of the playing and scoring features will be disabled.
The Score Reels rely on the Z/Reset relay firing during the reset sequence. It should fire until they've all reset to zero. Does it fire at all?
/Mark

I was doing a little more digging and noticed the V relay was intermittent, at best. When I activated it manually the Z fired and all the scrolls reset. Seems like I'm on to something there. Some of these old wiring diagrams make my head fuzzy, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems the V should be getting power off of S firing during the initial start sequence right? I cleaned the contacts and took the V relay off to measure and bench test it, 16.3 ohms resistance. Not sure if that's normal for the age; I've seen them listed as 15 ohm resistance new but I figure that's within tolerances.

Didn't catch that about the Zero Position switch before, good to know! When I start a game, the solenoid on top of the Ball Count unit fires, resetting it and opening that contact with the R+W wire I need. Should this unit advance itself one stage after resetting to close this contact back up and activate the playfield?
Added images on the unit as it sits after the start sequence fires.open r+w wire contact for zero positionopen r+w wire contact for zero positionIMG_20231117_093948803 (resized).jpgIMG_20231117_093948803 (resized).jpg

#7 5 months ago
Quoted from DanMarino:

Very cool. I love working on abandoned EM machines that don't play games. Really fun to get them working again. I'm not an expert, but I always start by getting the schematic and owners manual for the machine. The owner's manual has the start-up sequence. I always follow that sequence to see where things seem to stop functioning.
I also always take a few minutes to clean the relay switches with a file, sandpaper, or dremel tool with a wire brush. The dremel is my favorite method now. After cleaning the switches, I spend some time activating the relays by hand with the power off to make sure they are opening and closing properly and making contact when they open and close.
Taking some time to clean up the score reels is always important. There are some great videos on YouTube that talk about the score reel adjustment.
This is my favorite EM resource https://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#reels
Pinwiki is also a good place to look for some help. https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair#Gottlieb.C2.AE_Decagon_.28Early_Design.29_Score_Reel_Overhaul
The stepper units that control ball count and player sometimes cause problems and can be a little tricky to get right. I've had a few Gottlieb machines need cleaning and adjustment to get the games to play right. That stepper unit in the bottom right of the head is the one.

Good advice! I didn't fully disassemble, but went through and cleaned/lubricated all the motors and score wheels with appropriate grease. I've been cleaning contacts as I go, but I'll probably have to commit an afternoon to sit down and pretty all of them up. I went and cleaned the motor, pall, and all the contacts on the ball count unit and after looking at the other advice so far in the thread I'm thinking that's where my issue lies.

#8 5 months ago

I think the Ball Count Unit should take a step up, away from the Zero/Reset position when the ball rolls over the Trough switch between the out hole and the shooter lane. If you manually advance the Ball Count Unit does the playfield wake up?

The V/Reset relay is key to getting through reset. It is an interlock relay that has two coils. At the start of reset the V coil fires and once the Ball Count and Score Reels reset the VR coil should fire to release the interlock.

#9 5 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

I think the Ball Count Unit should take a step up, away from the Zero/Reset position when the ball rolls over the Trough switch between the out hole and the shooter lane. If you manually advance the Ball Count Unit does the playfield wake up?
The V/Reset relay is key to getting through reset. It is an interlock relay that has two coils. At the start of reset the V coil fires and once the Ball Count and Score Reels reset the VR coil should fire to release the interlock.

I went ahead and disassembled all of the V relay area, cleaned all the contacts, resoldered each connection, and took both relays out for inspection and thorough cleaning. Wouldn't you know it, start sequence works perfectly now! I love how robust these "simple" mechanical designs tend to be. I was on my way back here to mention that I could manually advance the stepper and the board works, and saw your comment about the trough switch. Sometimes the easiest solutions are the answer, huh? Had the playfield up the whole times I've been working on it and didn't even see that switch there ever. Sure enough, hit it down and the stepper advances, game is fully playable minus the big rotator in the middle and needing some good loving all around on the playfield.
On a side note, do you have any suggestions on how to reattach the old paper labels for everything in the machine? A few have fallen off but they're all there, and I'd love to keep it original if possible.

Thanks for the great help! Machine is well on its way to revival now!

#10 5 months ago
Quoted from Borderhalofreak:

do you have any suggestions on how to reattach the old paper labels for everything in the machine? A few have fallen off but they're all there, and I'd love to keep it original if possible.

Maybe rubber cement?

#11 5 months ago
Quoted from Borderhalofreak:

do you have any suggestions on how to reattach the old paper labels for everything in the machine?

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