I watched the Roger Sharpe based movie Pinball: The Man Who Saved The Game. I wonder why pinball was outlawed to begin with. Did it have anything to do with theme? Lots of EMs based on bingo and cards. I understand that the proof was that there was shot skill involved but why else would there be flippers unless it was a skill game. Flippers had been around since 1947.
On my opinion had every thing to do with what some might call illegal gambling. Hence why you see on games “a game of skill” to differentiate it from gambling which may have been more luck based.
Oh. And don’t forget that our beloved government wanted their fair share of tax revenue! Got to have the tax revenue.
George
From the gambling pinball era, games that paid out nickels or tokens which could be redeemed for money, or accumulated credits location erased and paid you for. ( in my area games that paid out tokens you couldn't redeem the tokens for nickels or money. So it was up to the location to make cash payouts, which if they did they had to be careful about it.
Many laws and licensing costs come from the gambling era of slot machines and later pinball.
Except NY and WI which were add a ball states only, all other states that had pinball you could win games on, you had to be 18 years old to play. Many had a non gambling sticker upper left corner of the playfield.
Prior to Roger's making a shot in 1975, pinball was legal for any age in most of the united states. My area that would be 1970. My Father started fighting Minneapolis in 1965 to do away with the age limit.
LTG : )
We had a seminar about this at Pintastic on Saturday. There are many non-flipper variations on pinball that have a gambling proposition either implemented in the machine (e.g., direct payout) or as the only way that the machine would be any fun to play (e.g., one-ball horse race game where you plunge and hope it goes in the hole for your horse). Legislators would often be imprecise in their wording and include all pinball games in their gambling bans.
As LTG points out, pinball was legal in much of the country. Some big cities had bans or age limts, and those cities are also centers of mass media, which tends to make their policies more visible.
.................David Marston
Have a friend/acquaintance that was a very successful operator in the Richmond VA area back in the day (although he scoffs when I call him an op, he prefers business owner). He started a route in the mid 1970s with an Allied Leisure Sonic Fighter (BIG Cabinet) and a Briarwood (Brunswick) Block-a-shot (He still owned both--although he sold the Blockashot to me). I'm 99% sure I'm the first person he ever actually sold anything too... He must have had 400+ Bingos, vids, arcades, pinball and gambling machines all through his warehouse. Most were pretty rough, and still fresh off route, sitting for 20+ years since they were pulled. I scored a couple of REALLY sweet EM arcades from him, and a totally original pacman... But that's another story...
He did really well back in the day, according to him employing 15 people in his coin op business before he expanded to restaurants and the like, all the while maintaining his route. All those Bingo's were "wink and nod" gambling devices, which according to him, everybody ran "back then." He started expanding into more obvious gaming machines, video "card games" (poker), machines that were thinly veiled Keno games, etc. (He still had all of these in his warehouse still to this day). According to him, his job as a business owner was to give people what they wanted, and what they wanted was gambling. The drop on anything that had that edge to it was 20X the "straight" games according to him, and "everybody was doing it" so he "had to do the same" to compete.
Hearing his story, and seeing all these gambling machines side by side with pinballs in his massive warehouse, it's easy to see why politicians lumped all of these "pinballs" into the same bucket. All gambling, all evil (i.e., uncle Sam wasn't getting his cut). To end a long post, he was eventually raided by the IRS, in the 90s and ended up settling with the government for most of his assets, except, ironically, most of his coin ops. He is still pretty sour about all of it, as he feels like he was just made an example of, while they ignored everyone else. (According to him, these illicit gambling bars were rampant).
Anyway, just sharing some local history related to the topic as it was told to me!
I guess my first question was specifically about the movie and how did making a called shot prove non-gambling? Flipper play is easy to see as skill based action. Making a called skill shot off the plunge proved something? I guess I am just missing the point.
Quoted from KozMckPinball:I guess my first question was more about the movie and how did making a called shot prove non-gambling?
Proved it was skill and not random.
Which I believe helped Steve Epstein's Broadway Arcade have or keep pinball machines.
LTG : )
Quoted from LTG:Proved it was skill and not random.
Which I believe helped Steve Epstein's Broadway Arcade have or keep pinball machines.
LTG : )
I get that, but Flipper use is skillful, anyone, layman or not, can see that without the pomp and circumstance. It seemed like the movie was proving the plunged skill shot was not random, but having a plunger and not a button ball serve would already tell me its not random because the stroke length and power can be gauged by the player. its on a spring. Not sure why this needed such formal demonstration. Liked the movie. Was/is Roger Sharpe that quirky like the actor portrayed him?
I always liked the Nickle slots that you could boost your odds up through extra nickles plus after having shot your first ball you could then choose to rotate the cards and play say 3 in the blue, 4 in yellow which pays 3/4 times normal payoff. Sounds simple but trust me not!!
Quoted from KozMckPinball:I guess my first question was specifically about the movie and how did making a called shot prove non-gambling? Flipper play is easy to see as skill based action. Making a called skill shot off the plunge proved something? I guess I am just missing the point.
You give people way too much credit! I’ve talked to people in my own lifetime who think pinball is all luck and random. “You mean to say you can control where the ball goes?” -my ex coworker
The movie was intentionally not a documentary. Roger wanted it that way. It's more of a dramadey. The courtroom scene was symbolic, not a reenactment. As others have said, he proved pinball was skillful. Don't sweat the rest of the details. Dude nailed it.
Quoted from phishrace:The movie was intentionally not a documentary. Roger wanted it that way. It's more of a dramadey. The courtroom scene was symbolic, not a reenactment. As others have said, he proved pinball was skillful. Don't sweat the rest of the details. Dude nailed it.
Was the movie personality symbolic? Don't know him otherwise..
When I first started collecting pinball machines and putting a few on
location my Dad asked if I was in the 'mob'. He told me to be careful not
to impinge on someone elses territory. So it appears that back in the
day mobsters were involved somehow. Or at least that was the perception.
This could have been part of the reason they were illegal in some places.
Quoted from KozMckPinball:Flipper play is easy to see as skill based action. Making a called skill shot off the plunge proved something? I guess I am just missing the point.
I think the New York City Council had at least one negatively-disposed person, and the councilors who were ready to lift the ban needed some sort of convincing (and semi-public) demonstration to get concurrence. maybe they would have lifted the ban without the demonstration, but only after months of discussion.
.................David Marston
The history is there if you care to find it. Yes - there was all types of corruption in urban cities in the 20s-40s....widespread racketeering, shyster legal process, criminals in roles of civic and law enforcement authority - outside of slavery, probably one of American's least memorable portions of history.
So yes - gambling was at the heart of corruption and amusement games were the tools. There was one story I read where the machines were rounded up and dumped in a shithole by some dock. Well - rats were all over the place and people used to lower themselves in the storage area to try and pick out nickels form the slots, many of them getting devoured by the rats instead.
Quoted from KozMckPinball:I get that, but Flipper use is skillful, anyone, layman or not, can see that without the pomp and circumstance. It seemed like the movie was proving the plunged skill shot was not random, but having a plunger and not a button ball serve would already tell me its not random because the stroke length and power can be gauged by the player. its on a spring. Not sure why this needed such formal demonstration. Liked the movie. Was/is Roger Sharpe that quirky like the actor portrayed him?
This is laughably untrue. I can't even count how many times people have said the phrase "how can you be good at pinball?" to me. If random people who grew up with arcades and pinball machines around don't understand there's skill involved, then how are you going to expect clueless politicians, especially back in the day, especially when it was back when a lot of games were A LOT less apparent that they were a game of skill, it was still a time when Bingo machines were around, and not all that far off from flipperless games. Lots of gambling machines give the illusion of player control too, so its not even that far fetched of a claim.
Quoted from BallLocks:(According to him, these illicit gambling bars were rampant).
BallLocks was that guy you mentioned operating the gambling bar/restaurant too, or just the machines?
I always wondered how the earnings were split with the location, but if he was running the actual bar/restaurant I could see how it might look like he was operating a casino situation.
Quoted from DanMarino:I always wondered how the earnings were split with the location,
I know of one operator back in the day of the nickle payout pins.
He'd dump all the nickels on a table. Cut the pile in half. Let the location pick which half they wanted. He'd box the other half and go. No time to count on location.
LTG : )
Quoted from DanMarino:was that guy you mentioned operating the gambling bar/restaurant too, or just the machines?
My understanding is he was the kind of guy that had 20 pokers in the fire at any given time. I know he operated a route, which included locations I know he didn't own (e.g , one of his locations was somewhere on the William and Mary campus).
He also owned several restaurants and other businesses that were seized. I do know that most of his money was made off of amusement machines--that was the money he used to buy/build other businesses. I would guess he had machines in his own places too, but he has so many machines, he would have had to have done split arrangements as well with other location owners. I can ask him next time I see him what that looked like. Sometimes he will talk freely about it, but he is definitely sour. I suspect he hasn't sold off much of his coin operated equipment because he is still hanging onto that part of his identity a bit--I can totally empathise.
He must have had 20 OG pacmans, a few dozen Ms. Pacs, and a dozen Captain Fantastics that he bought from NIB. He said his first PacMan he paid $5K for (I THINK thats what he said)--but he wasn't worried about it because "it was a license to print money." I would love to convince him to do an interview with a Podcaster, but every time I've mentioned it, he changes the subject 
Quoted from KozMckPinball:Was the movie personality symbolic? Don't know him otherwise..
I haven't been around Roger much, but from the brief time I have spent with him, the movie absolutely nailed him. Like from the opening scene. I felt like an idiot when I learned the guy in the trailer wasn't the real Roger. The makeup for old Roger was perfect. Looked exactly like him. And the acting was perfect too. Real Roger is a smart, outgoing guy, but he doesn't want to be the center of attention. Just happy to be a part of the crowd. The mood of the movie fit the guy perfectly.
Getcha one of these guys. Great graphic novel that explains it well.
https://www.amazon.com/Pinball-Graphic-History-Silver-Ball/dp/125024921X/ref=sr_1_1
Quoted from phishrace:I haven't been around Roger much, but from the brief time I have spent with him, the movie absolutely nailed him. Like from the opening scene. I felt like an idiot when I learned the guy in the trailer wasn't the real Roger. The makeup for old Roger was perfect. Looked exactly like him. And the acting was perfect too. Real Roger is a smart, outgoing guy, but he doesn't want to be the center of attention. Just happy to be a part of the crowd. The mood of the movie fit the guy perfectly.
Embarrassing story: When I went to watch the movie, Roger himself was in attendance. My friends and I were chatting with him before the movie started. Movie starts and I'm watching it and enjoying it, and it gets over and Roger starts addressing the audience about how the guy playing current Roger did such a good job and it was only then that it dawned on me that it was not actually Roger in the movie. Luckily my friends also fell for it, so I felt a little less foolish not being the only bozo in the crowd.
Quoted from acedanger:Why isn't this thread outlawed?
Gambling requires 3 elements: chance, prize, and consideration. We must be missing at least one of those.
.................David Marston
Little bit of West Coast history
One of Portland’s most notorious gangsters: James Butler “Big Jim” Elkins. Born in Texas on March 13, 1901, Jim Elkins spent the first 30 years of his life as a bootlegger and drug smuggler. In the late 1930s he moved to Oregon. From 1940 until 1956, Elkins was in control of Portland’s vice industry.
Not content with drugs, booze, and prostitution alone, Big Jim and his brother Fred Elkins decided to get into the gambling business. Slot machines had been declared illegal in most establishments and states, but they were soon replaced in clubs and taverns by pinball machines. The game was kept legal due to the amount of skill involved in pinball versus gambling devices like slot machines. By 1957, the game accounted for a $3 billion industry nationally.
The money made from the vice ventures gave Elkins the ability to pay off police, politicians, and city officials. Harry King, one of his long-time employees said: “We had all the gambling joints, all the bootleg joints in the downtown area, and nobody could open a place without an OK from Jim…We could double park our car out in the middle of the street and let it sit there. The cops wouldn’t dare touch it because we worked for Jim.”
By the 1950s, the Teamsters Union had built a reputation for being connected to organized crime. In Seattle, they were being utilized by an organized crime syndicate as cover for their operations, and as enforcers in racketeering schemes. The Seattle racketeers noticed James “Big Jim” Elkin’s control over Portland politicians and law enforcement. Having recently moved the union to Portland, Teamster bosses approached Elkins about a three-way partnership between the Seattle group, the Teamsters, and Big Jim himself. Elkins had little choice in the matter. Despite having Portland in his pocket, the Seattle racketeers were a larger operation.
The partnership went well for several years, until Elkins was asked by Seattle bosses and the Teamsters to find a site for the Memorial Coliseum. Both the Teamsters and the Seattle group wanted to gain a control of developing property around the Coliseum to force the city and local businesses to use only Teamster labor and delivery. Elkins was expected to front the money, but instead of buying the selected Steel Bridge site he only purchased the real estate option, and let it expire. The Seattle racketeers had recently brought in a new middle man to possibly replace Elkins, though he was still expected to front cash, utilize his connections with police and political authorities, and send a cut of his profits to Seattle.
Seeing a threat to his power and financial stability, Elkins ended his relationship with the Teamsters and the Seattle group. Teamster boss Frank Brewster gave him this warning: “I make chiefs of police and I break chiefs of police. I’ve been in and out of jail. Nothing scares me…If you embarrass my…boys you’ll find yourself walking across Lake Washington with concrete boots on.”
In 1956, Big Jim went public to protect himself and his Portland investments. Placing wiretaps in apartments rented out to Teamsters allowed Elkins to get several union officials and Seattle racketeers on tape admitting to various labor crimes. These tapes were shared with the FBI and the Oregonian, prompting a special Senate hearing by the McClellan committee, who sent Robert F. Kennedy to Portland to investigate. The hearings lasted for two years, and when two men showed up at Elkins’ home to intimidate his family, Big Jim recalled: “I talked to them. I hit one in the head with a shotgun and put him in his car.”
Big Jim Elkins could not be intimidated or run out of his own town. In the end, over 100 indictments were given to Teamsters officials, Seattle racketeers, and Elkins, himself. Though it took two appeals, Jim Elkins was acquitted of all charges only a few years later.
![elkins-big-jim-1950s[1] (resized).jpg](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAAAAACH5BAEKAAEALAAAAAABAAEAAAICTAEAOw==)
elkins-big-jim-1950s[1] (resized).jpgQuoted from LTG:I know of one operator back in the day of the nickle payout pins.
He'd dump all the nickels on a table. Cut the pile in half. Let the location pick which half they wanted. He'd box the other half and go. No time to count on location.
That's how every parent I know with 2 children divides dessert - one kid cuts, the other chooses.
I've heard stories from old timer bar owners who said that shortly after they opened they got a visit from representatives of the local "operator". It didn't matter if they wanted that juke box, cigarette machine, or other coin operated attraction in their bar. The guys just show up with the gear and the owner had to make the best of it. It was intimated that bad things happened to those who refused.
Quoted from Chuck_Sherman:Little bit of West Coast history
One of Portland’s most notorious gangsters: James Butler “Big Jim” Elkins. Born in Texas on March 13, 1901, Jim Elkins spent the first 30 years of his life as a bootlegger and drug smuggler. In the late 1930s he moved to Oregon. From 1940 until 1956, Elkins was in control of Portland’s vice industry.
Not content with drugs, booze, and prostitution alone, Big Jim and his brother Fred Elkins decided to get into the gambling business. Slot machines had been declared illegal in most establishments and states, but they were soon replaced in clubs and taverns by pinball machines. The game was kept legal due to the amount of skill involved in pinball versus gambling devices like slot machines. By 1957, the game accounted for a $3 billion industry nationally.
The money made from the vice ventures gave Elkins the ability to pay off police, politicians, and city officials. Harry King, one of his long-time employees said: “We had all the gambling joints, all the bootleg joints in the downtown area, and nobody could open a place without an OK from Jim…We could double park our car out in the middle of the street and let it sit there. The cops wouldn’t dare touch it because we worked for Jim.”
By the 1950s, the Teamsters Union had built a reputation for being connected to organized crime. In Seattle, they were being utilized by an organized crime syndicate as cover for their operations, and as enforcers in racketeering schemes. The Seattle racketeers noticed James “Big Jim” Elkin’s control over Portland politicians and law enforcement. Having recently moved the union to Portland, Teamster bosses approached Elkins about a three-way partnership between the Seattle group, the Teamsters, and Big Jim himself. Elkins had little choice in the matter. Despite having Portland in his pocket, the Seattle racketeers were a larger operation.
The partnership went well for several years, until Elkins was asked by Seattle bosses and the Teamsters to find a site for the Memorial Coliseum. Both the Teamsters and the Seattle group wanted to gain a control of developing property around the Coliseum to force the city and local businesses to use only Teamster labor and delivery. Elkins was expected to front the money, but instead of buying the selected Steel Bridge site he only purchased the real estate option, and let it expire. The Seattle racketeers had recently brought in a new middle man to possibly replace Elkins, though he was still expected to front cash, utilize his connections with police and political authorities, and send a cut of his profits to Seattle.
Seeing a threat to his power and financial stability, Elkins ended his relationship with the Teamsters and the Seattle group. Teamster boss Frank Brewster gave him this warning: “I make chiefs of police and I break chiefs of police. I’ve been in and out of jail. Nothing scares me…If you embarrass my…boys you’ll find yourself walking across Lake Washington with concrete boots on.”
In 1956, Big Jim went public to protect himself and his Portland investments. Placing wiretaps in apartments rented out to Teamsters allowed Elkins to get several union officials and Seattle racketeers on tape admitting to various labor crimes. These tapes were shared with the FBI and the Oregonian, prompting a special Senate hearing by the McClellan committee, who sent Robert F. Kennedy to Portland to investigate. The hearings lasted for two years, and when two men showed up at Elkins’ home to intimidate his family, Big Jim recalled: “I talked to them. I hit one in the head with a shotgun and put him in his car.”
Big Jim Elkins could not be intimidated or run out of his own town. In the end, over 100 indictments were given to Teamsters officials, Seattle racketeers, and Elkins, himself. Though it took two appeals, Jim Elkins was acquitted of all charges only a few years later.[quoted image]
These dudes were all over the nation back then. What goes unreported is the amount of pain and suffering they did to honest people looking for a better life.
Quoted from LTG:From the gambling pinball era, games that paid out nickels or tokens which could be redeemed for money, or accumulated credits location erased and paid you for.
To add to this, some Williams games from the 1950s had a star feature where several hundred replays can be won. Obviously, the player is never expected to play all those replays, so the location would pay off the credits instead.
IMG_7276 (resized).pngQuoted from AstonEnthusiast:One word: Laguardia.
It's actually two words: La Guardia
(The guy, not the airport.)
Well, it's useful to know the reason Fiorello banned pinball - Boss Tweed and Tammany Hall. To Fio, pinball was only one feature of citywide corruption, but one which lent itself to photo ops. He sure didn't have it in for pinball specifically.
Quoted from zombywoof:I've heard stories from old timer bar owners who said that shortly after they opened they got a visit from representatives of the local "operator". It didn't matter if they wanted that juke box, cigarette machine, or other coin operated attraction in their bar. The guys just show up with the gear and the owner had to make the best of it. It was intimated that bad things happened to those who refused.
To be technically accurate, the Commonwealth of Virginia does not have bars. They have restaurants, some of which have ABC licenses. The thing is that a certain percentage of their income must come from food sales (highly taxed) or they loose their liquor license. It's just another shakedown, only this one is "legal". (Oh, and all spirits sales are controlled by the Commonwealth's monopoly. It's a double shakedown!)
My Mother and Father owned a bar my entire life growing up and they always had 3 six card dime bingo's that would hold max of 500.00 each in the change box. I've also, despite the top payout being only 20.00 bucks would have to have those serviced twice a week to keep the boxes from overfilling and possibly causing shorts. They split nothing actually, fact. 95-98% of all payouts went right back in, they would see the payouts numbers and divey up, never viewed this as a split more a cost of business as it made more money for all. The hey days for them were from '67-'75 just before they outlawed them.
I watched more than one GM. Ford, General Elec. employee spend their entire checks in those machines. Times were that the only other gambling besides Vegas was the horses so people gravitated towards Bingo's and lets be honest it's still a thrill to plunge that ball up! Loved that the most lol!
Quoted from KozMckPinball:Was/is Roger Sharpe that quirky like the actor portrayed him?
Yes
Quoted from jackd104:You give people way too much credit! I’ve talked to people in my own lifetime who think pinball is all luck and random. “You mean to say you can control where the ball goes?” -my ex coworker
I run across large numbers of people whom are astounded to find out the game they are playing has actual rules.
I'm not sure why they think they don't but there you go.
Quoted from LTG:Wrong thread ?
Yeah got excited and blowzoed
I enjoyed the movie, but the "saved pinball" idea is just a little exaggerated. Out here in flyover country, and most places I went as a kid in the 60s, replay games were there. Only in a few locations did they need "saving."
Quoted from EMsInKC:I enjoyed the movie, but the "saved pinball" idea is just a little exaggerated. Out here in flyover country, and most places I went as a kid in the 60s, replay games were there. Only in a few locations did they need "saving."
All true, but if you're a movie producer and hope to get people to watch your film, you can't very well name it "The Man Who Affected The Legal Status Of Pinball For The Better".
Quoted from clodpole:All true, but if you're a movie producer and hope to get people to watch your film, you can't very well name it "The Man Who Affected The Legal Status Of Pinball For The Better".
For one city.
I wish they'd do a film of his other achievements. Like licensing at Williams. He was responsible for the Addams license. Most produced modern pin.
LTG : )
Quoted from ifpapinball:My dad did find this letter while going through his filing cabinets in the basement. Interesting piece of history.
[quoted image]
Interesting piece of history, indeed. Thanks for sharing it!
As an irrelevant aside, I was busy getting married that weekend.
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Hopkins, MN