(Topic ID: 79389)

Zaccaria pinball owners club! All welcome

By SpOoKyRiDeS

7 years ago


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#650 5 years ago

What is the best place to get free play roms for Farfalla?
And how difficult is it to install?

#652 5 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Anyone with a burner. Dave has them on his site for download. If you have a burner you can do it yourself, or order them from dave directly. Easy. pop out 2 or 3 chips, and install the new ones. takes about 5 -10 min. Make sure all the legs are in the holes before pushing it down and make sure they are in the right way and in the correct order. That's it.

Thx I have a burner but I think Ill be lazy and order them.

7 months later
#720 4 years ago

I'm still looking for a new backbox insert for my green girl farfalla.
Or some way to fix her worn away nose and some other small wear areas.

Does anyone even do this type of meticulous repair?

A new backglass for it is also on my wish list...
Bgresto will do do my glass but hasnt commited to mirror paint yet and I like the mirror part of it, dont want a paint-over...

3 weeks later
#771 4 years ago

Is there someone whou can re-touch my farfalla backglass insert?
Maybe someone who paints miniatures or something like that?
I need the typical nose and nipple wear corrected.

Or if someone ha a left-over or spare, I would like to purchase it.
As well as a NOS backglass.

#774 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

send me a pics of it, let me see how bad it is

I absolutely will maybe next week.

1 month later
#838 4 years ago
Quoted from Archieball:

Hi fellow Zac owners! I have a weird problem with my Farfalla, and in case it is something small and stupid I thought I'd ask here first before I make a dedicated thread. The right ball save flipper ("right kicker flipper" in the schems) does not work. It does, however, work fine in the coil test. The associated switch in the right outer exit canal (24) checks out fine as well in the switch test.
Am I looking at a CPU problem, or is there something else I should be looking at here? There are no other problems with the game.
Thanks!
Archieball

Does it work as a single flip after the drops are hit and its enabled?
It only does a single flip when it is enabled so you have to get good at it.

2 months later
#856 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Clown and Pool champion showed up for the collection. Both are shopped out and playing. Pool champion still has the sound out, but clown is fully up and running.
My gen 2 Collection is almost complete. Only 2 more to go, and I have a full set. (mexico 86 and Blackbelt). One is fairly common in Europe, the other is fairly common here. Except the people in europe don't like to ship overseas. Or at all it seems. Found 6 mexico 86's and nobody will ship, even within the continent. :/

That clown is the scariest, freakiest clown ever! lol

9 months later
#963 3 years ago
Quoted from Drano:

Hey Guys,
Are there any Farfalla owners here that need some parts?
I have a rare upper playfield (lucite) in very nice shape and I think I have at least 3 or 4 pop bumper assemblies. Most of them with the flower caps and bodies intact.
There is also the plastic that wraps around the yellow targets on the upper playfield. It's almost always broken. This one is intact and in very nice shape as well. Might have some other bits and pieces.
Shoot me a PM if interested and make me an offer. I've owned two Farfalla and sold them. I'd like the parts to go to good use.
Also, I will be in Allentown for Pinfest and can bring to the show.

I need a Farfalla backbox insert and maybe a good backglass.

#964 3 years ago

I want to change my Farfalla to LED's is this strait forward and just change out the bulbs to LED?

Also what LED's are a good kind/type for this.

#970 3 years ago
Quoted from rvdv:

Hi all
Robot is sold already
Someone jumped on it

I hope the game wasnt too damaged from the jumping...

#976 3 years ago
Quoted from gianfri:

Hi, First try I made with normal LED bulbs wasn't that good
I'm now waiting for new bulbs which should be specific for pinball machines, I'll see how it goes.

So that being said what would be the correct bulbs for a farfalla?

#979 3 years ago
Quoted from brenna98:

http://www.cometpinball.com/product-p/1smd5050ng.htm
Non-ghosting bulbs are your best bet. I would get all warm white clear lens #44 for inserts and GI.
Frosted lens is what I usually use for backglass. Mostly white, with some accents of color where needed.
http://www.cometpinball.com/product-p/2smd-ct-ft.htm

Very nice, thanks!

#981 3 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Comets, 2 SMB daylight white frosted bulbs work great for all zac Gi's. I use them in most of my zacs. No need for non ghosting for GI's. use 1 smb for inserts, thou you do get a random flicker here or there, but nothing horrible.

Thanks!

1 year later
#1258 2 years ago

My farfalla lock down reciever is really corroded.

Will another one like bally or Williams work?

#1261 2 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

The lockbar is the same as a Williams. The Williams receiver might work, but not sure if it has different cabinet mounting holes.

So if the lock bar is the same, that would infer that the lock bar receiver is the same?

Can anyone verify this?

Different mounting holes are not a problem etc.

What system version William's lock bar and reciever do I order?

And do the Williams siderails/cabinet buttons also fit?

#1269 2 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

infer what you want. The lock bars are 100% identical, the receivers are definitely not, but still might work. The handle is differently shaped and I don't see the carriage bolts attaching it through the wood on the Zac. Not sure if it's the same width or thickness or has the pf hanger notches in the same place. Williams lock bars were the same from at some point in the 1970's EM era (not sure what they they started) all the way through 1999 (except widebody and Pin2K). Spooky and JJP also use the Williams lockbars.

So I should take a serious look at Williams system 11 lock down bar recievers?

I'll see if the one on my Diner matches up.

#1289 2 years ago

I want to replace the flipper buttons on the cabinet for my Farfalla.

Are they standard williams/bally? What generation?

Thanks.

#1291 2 years ago
Quoted from Nihonmasa:

These are regular buttons. Just the usual ones like nowadays stern, jjp...
If you look above at the pic of my farfalla you will see I swapped mines with clear, illuminated buttons.

Great! I bought a bag of assorted colors at TPF.

2 weeks later
#1308 2 years ago
Quoted from play_pinball:

More Spooky questions:
Everyone has said we needed a step up/down transformer for this game but looking at the transformer in here, is there a reason it couldn’t be rewired down and a new plug attached? Not sure I’m understanding why other owners have stated that this cannot be rewired since it has the extra lugs to do it.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Its not magical, if the voltage/amperage coming off the tap is correct for the circuit, you are good to go.

#1312 2 years ago

I want to install led's on my farfalla.

Any advice?

#1314 2 years ago
Quoted from ViperJelly:

I put leds in mine and it looks good. Maybe some occasional ghosting but nothing too crazy. GI in warm white then color match inserts to the shot. Don't have any great pics as I usually only do that wen i am getting ready to sell You can kind of see it in the pic below linked below.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1XjTGrgTwARYR7an9
Edit: I will also mention I did the rainbow in multicolor and I think it looks sharp.

Non-ghosting led's?
Is there a fix one could do for the ghosting?

What about NoFlix led's?

#1326 2 years ago
Quoted from jeffk:

I used the Ablaze 1-LED Flat Tops and Ablaze 3-LED from Pinball Life, I don't notice any ghosting.
I matched inserts except in front of targets, I made the orange targets orange, the blue targets blue, etc.
I made the rainbow trail multicolored, started out with 3 LED in the rainbow but that was too bright for me, so I switched to the 1 LED Flat Tops. I have a 4-SMD red for the Multi-Special and put a 1-SMD flex under the raised playfield to add a little more light back there.
I have a parts list if anyone is interested.

Sounds beautiful!
PM me your parts list please.
And I'll order all the bulbs.

Or email me the doc

3 months later
#1480 2 years ago
Quoted from swampwiz:

Farfalla owners, do you prefer the modest or sexy backbox overlay art? I have the modest one, like this one being offered at eBay.
ebay.com link
I tend to think that the modest one goes better with the theme of "innocent love" that is depicted as a young, fully-clothed couple on the bridge.

Im looking for the Green Lady one. Mine is a bit cracked up and she needs a nose job....

So if anyone has a spare one in good shape, please contact me via PM.

#1483 2 years ago
Quoted from HHaase:

Looks like a 'clothed farfalla' inner backglass just popped up on ebay this morning.
Didn't give it a close look, since I'm not in the market, but it's there.
-Hans

Pinballgoddess thinks the blue girl looks like a cheerleader and is not impressed, or I'd get it.

She likes the green butterfly goddess woman a lot better.

1 month later
#1520 2 years ago

Time to restore my farfalla.

It's pretty rough.

I started it today after it sat for a few years.

It boots! But no neon.

Loud hum in speakers.

Everything is a bit corroded.

Playfield starting to plank. Will need clearcoaring I think.

#1522 2 years ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

See if you can get it running before worrying about the playfield.

Will do.

I'll work on it a bit on Friday and saturday.

Start doing a cleaning and checklist/checkup.

Game was playing fine before is sat a bit. Lol

#1523 2 years ago

I have a spare populated playfield for it.

My plan is to make the best one can out of the 2.

#1527 2 years ago

Poking around my farfalla today.
It's really in desperate need of cleaning throughout.

Years of cigarettes and neglect!

So that's where I will start lol
20191025_094226 (resized).jpg20191025_094230 (resized).jpg20191025_095529 (resized).jpg

Lockdown reciever and coindoor are really corroded.

Electronics are crispy and filthy.

#1530 2 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

david gersic can make you ribbon cables you need. Zaccaria-pinball.com

I was just going to ask that!

#1531 2 years ago

Cleaned all of the tar off the sound board. And put in the 4 missing mounting screws w/star washers.
Repaired the cut/missing ground braid the the main cabinet

The hum is gone!

20191025_115310 (resized).jpg

#1532 2 years ago

Cleaned and inspected the power supply board.
I found 2 blown fuses.
F1 and f5

Replaced fuses and installed 4 screws with star washers, now the game boots.

Also the neon is now working!

Evidently all of the screws are missing and all of the boards are held on the old cracking nylon posts.

Someone in the past was afraid of the ground plane it seems.

So I have good audio and a booting, functioning game with neon!

Not bad for a couple hours today.

#1534 2 years ago
Quoted from Alan_L:

Pinballinreno, take some close up pics of all the connectors, many have extra uncovered header pins and sometimes there are no keying plugs in the plastic connector housings. Plugging in one pin off can cause some issues you don't want.
You also might want to think about losing that battery, NVRAM is plug and play on this board I believe, no soldering.
Have fun, a great machine.

I did see bent over clear plastic pins that once worked lol

Are replacement pins available?
It would be good to replace these if I can.

I'm being careful about plug locations, pics etc.

About the battery:

I absolutely want to replace/remove it.

Is there a kit or thread on this?
Can you point me in a direction?

#1536 2 years ago

I'm in need of a farfalla backglass.

Repro of original better than mine:

20191025_095839 (resized).jpg20191025_095912 (resized).jpg20191025_095921 (resized).jpg
#1537 2 years ago

Also could use a replacement insert, or a lead on someone to touch mine up:
20191025_095349 (resized).jpg
Over all this insert is better than most, with very little cracking.

#1538 2 years ago

I am shopping the game a bit as the rubber is dried up.

Has someone glued my bumper caps on?

I cant get them off easily.
20191025_122015 (resized).jpg20191025_122028 (resized).jpg

Does anyone have covers for these bumpers? Are they even available lol?

#1539 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

I was just going to ask that!

Put my long ribbon in the sonic cleaner for 20 mins.

Its clean now, tar stained, but not sticky any more.

Its ok for now.

#1541 2 years ago
Quoted from pinball_ric:

Yikes.. Yeah it looks like someone epoxied your pop bumpers closed. No there are no replacements. You're going to have to try to find someone who's parted one out.

I'm hoping I can exacto them off and restore them maybe?

Lol

#1542 2 years ago

I'm really excited about this game!

I think I'm going to clearcoat the playfield for longevity.

It'll play like a rocket when done lol.

#1543 2 years ago

Anyone have some farfalla bumper caps, please let me know!

Also my coindoor and lockdown reciever is super corroded.

If you have anything to contribute font hesitate to contact me!

#1546 2 years ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

Not necessary. The clear coat on the Zaccaria games is super durable. Clean it up and you’ll see

I have 2 playfields.
The clear is gone on the one currently in the game. Its super dull after cleaning.

I'll try a little light buffing and some wax.

There is wood graining appearing all over.

A couple cracks are also apperaing.

A lot of inserts are cracked.

The second one is in pretty good shape.

The clear is very thin and wearing out.

Wood graining is appearing in some areas with some splitting of the surface.

It will need clearcoar to preserve what's there.

Can i get replacement inserts?

I can probably harvest inserts from one playfield to the other

They look very fragile, I can see ruining them if pulled out.

#1548 2 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

clear cannot be gone. Just scuffed up from balls with dings on them. it's there and can be buffed back to mirror shine. it it was in high humidity environments, and had graining throughout, then you will probably want to swap.

Yep.

All of the massive corrosion throughout indicates a high humidity environment.

The worse of the 2 playfields has a lot more graining evident.

I'm shopping it out to get it 100% running before the rebuild.

I want to see it play and run some led tests ss well as go through and check all the mechs in PF 1.

The better of the 2 playfields has very slight grain showing and very little wear. The mechs look really in good shape!

I'll put a coat of clear on it and replace inserts, to preserve it, before the swap.

#1550 2 years ago

Took the my own advice from here lol.

Used an exacto knife to carefully cut thru the glue.
20191026_113210 (resized).jpg

I think I can clean these up!
The little feet are still intact.

WTF! lol.

#1557 2 years ago
Quoted from gianfri:

Congratualtions!
In case of need for the future, here the ribbon cables:
https://www.pinballsolutions.eu/product/zaccaria-ribbon-cable-for-cpu-mpu/
For the sound card you cleaned, did you use the ultrasonic cleaner or something else?

I used a degreaser called Krud Cutter, and a toothbrush.

(I dont have any circuit board cleaner for my sonic cleaner and worried about residue and corrosion on the pots and dip switches.
It's currently loaded up with purple power. )

This worked surprisingly well.
Rinsed with CRC electronic spray.

Dried with warm air electronic Duster blower.

I put the ribbons in the sonic cleaner.
They still fits tight, so it's ok for now.

#1558 2 years ago
Quoted from Inkochnito:

I think there is a NVRAM available for the 6514 ram chip.
Check out the Pinitech website.
https://www.pinitech.com/products/5114_nvram.php

Sadly not available for Farfalla

#1559 2 years ago

I totally scrubbed clean PF 1 and the plasticd in the game and put all new rubbers!

Also I installed 2smd frosted sunlight LEDs in the GI and pop bumpers. All bulbs in the pops were burnt out.

With the caps glued on there was no way to replace them lol.

Looks way better! No ghosting or flickering.

The #51 bulb in the center drop target probably needs a led.

What would be a good replacement?

#1560 2 years ago

I haven't cleaned up any of the mechs yet.

But the flippers seem weak?

I know they are only 39v.

But could use a little more power, in my opinion, to make it up the ramp better.

I'll rebuild them first and report back on this.

#1561 2 years ago

My stand up targets are all pretty toasted.

Its hard to read the text on the ones with lights behind them.

Has anyone replaced these?

What are they supposed to look like? I dont really have a reference.

I can get replacement translucent William's standups and put stickers maybe?

#1562 2 years ago

My "E" roll over barely works and a few of the inlane micro switches are very weak.

The have a hard time staying up, the springs seem weak.

Are there replacements for these?

#1563 2 years ago

So, I'm looking at the 35 year old nicad on the MPU board.

There are 4 ways to address this.

1) replace the battery with a fresh one.

2) install a memory capacitor.

3) install a remote battery holder and block the charging circuit with a diode?

4) get nvram (currently backordered?)

What about a coin battery holder?
And maybe cut the trace for the charging voltage or add a diode?

Has anyone done this?

#1565 2 years ago
Quoted from gianfri:

Yes, it is.
The 5114 pinitech module is compatible with all Zaccaria G2 machines.
Some users experienced few flaws but it is still not clear where those flaws come from. (meaning that it appears as a strange behaviour)
I have few machines with the my own 6514 NVRAM module and I never experienced any problem but I'm not playing that much either.
Until now, I never got a negative feedback on those.
Regarding your question on what to use, if you want to replace the current 35y old battery with another battery you can use a simple ni-cd 3,6v battery pack and remotely connect it with a wire to avoid any possible acid leakage.

I was just quoting a probably outdated compatibility list from pintech's website. It says not available.

Thank you for this!

Will you have the nvram available again soon?

I can just put a remote ni cad in for now.

#1567 2 years ago
Quoted from gianfri:

I'm currently producing them on demand so I can provide them when needed but to ship them overseas it's quite expensive.

I see.

Does anyone have them in the USA?

#1569 2 years ago
Quoted from gianfri:

No, I do not have resellers.
Check with Wayne from Pinitech, it's probably the easiest option.

Ok will do.

#1571 2 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

Zaccaria G2 compatibility was pulled from the compatibility list on the single Pinitech 5114 nvram earlier this year, after some reports of random behavior on this thread (as people have mentioned). So the list is current & Zaccaria G2 is not listed as compatible. There was a thought that replacing BOTH 5114 rams on the board with single 5114 nvram modules might clear up the issues -- Hans tried that and it did clear up a lot of problems, but not all.
The dual module design seems to be the way to go on Zaccaria G2 at this time. These are single boards with one FRAM chip (instead of using two separate FRAM chips) that replace both 5114 nvram at once. So far, no reports of odd behavior using the dual modules. Links for info on the dual modules below, by both Pinball Solutions and BRINK.

https://www.pinballsolutions.eu/product/nvram-dual-module-6514-2114/
http://www.zaccaria-pinball.com/products/brink/index.html

Thanks!
Definitely looks like the best solution if it becomes available.

#1573 2 years ago

Is there a led replacement for the #51 bulb on farfalla?
Or do I just put in a 2smd frosted?

It looks like 7.5v ?

The 6.3v led should handle it.

#1574 2 years ago

Going thru the game.

All contacts are sticky with tar.
They look pretty good after cleaning and polishing with flitz.

Got all switches working good.

#1575 2 years ago

The weak flipper problem went away after cleaning the burnt contacts on the cab buttons and flipper EOS.

I seem to have the wrong flipper coils:
20191028_115747 (resized).jpg20191028_115810 (resized).jpg

Should I just replace them with bally coils?

Or maybe replace the entire mechs with bally ones...and build new switches.

#1577 2 years ago

I want to rebuild my flippers.
Are the early bally rebuilds the way to go?
I have copper sleeves in my flipper coils that need changing, as well as plungers, links and coil stops.

Any help is appreciated!

#1578 1 year ago

Fixed the backbox lights and cleaned the insert and glass:

My game is missing the neon!

What I thought was neon was just the backbox lights failing lol.

Can someone guide me as to how to replace my missing parts?

I dont have a zaccaria game near me to copy from.

Before, fully lit lol:
20191029_112752 (resized).jpg
Cleaning off tar
20191029_145047 (resized).jpg
After cleaning.
20191029_151107 (resized).jpg

Some pics would really help me here if anyone has any.

I figure someone else has replaced what's needed on their game.

I would like to add it also.

#1580 1 year ago
Quoted from gianfri:

Funny, your displays are wrong!
Farfalla uses 7 Digits displays with the same size/ratio of the Bally/Starn digits.
The ones you have are 8 digit from previous games (Soccer Kings and Pinball Champ) and that's why you have one digit which is not ON.

That's amazing! Lol

My game is #412

Will this affect gameplay?
If so I would change them out.

Well my game has had a hard life.
It's pretty rough but, im getting it running better every day.

Today I got the drop targets unfrozen on the upper playfield.

And added flipper buttons that dont stay down when pressed.

I put a few games on it and it's starting to play really good.

Still lots more cleaning. Haha!
20191029_173638 (resized).jpg

#1581 1 year ago

Just had my sign guy look at my game.

I'll post the result!

Many thanks to:

brenna98
And
CaptainNeo

#1582 1 year ago

I just spoke to a guy who used to do celluloid slide restoration.
20191030_132309 (resized).jpg

He says I might have a good touch up result with laser printed
White waterslide decal paper.
You can sand the paper to get it the right color transparency evidently.

Not the clear, you would have to paint the plastic with a transluscent white paint that would never match up.

Make a tiny decal and slide it on.

If I can get some kind of a color match...

I'm inclined to try both white and clear!

Looks like a good safe way to experiment.

Has anyone else done this?

Can someone send a high res image of this area to draw from?

A close up from a cell phone would probably work fine.

This might really help a lot of people if it works out.

#1584 1 year ago
Quoted from gianfri:

It doesn't affect the game, but it's maybe a bit unaesthetical.
This game has scores with 7 digits, so the 8th is unused.
You may find someone interested in switching your 8 digits displays with some 7 digits

That's a great idea!

Does anyone need my perfectly working 8 digit displays?

I will trade them 1 for 1 for the proper 7 digit ones!

Must be fully working properly tbough.

#1586 1 year ago

I'm ordering the neon tube for farfalla.

I can order any color...

Is it pale yellow?

Is it pinkish white?

Is it white?

What is the original color?

There seems to be some inconsistancies.

The TNT video shows a pinkish white?

#1590 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

farfalla never existed with 8 digit. Someone threw those in there because someone used the original for another game, and someone else tried to piece this one together.

I suspect that this is true.
My game looks like its had a hard life.

But the displays are clean and bright, no reason to replace them at this point since they appear to work correctly.

#1591 1 year ago

Thanks you so much brenna98 for the twitch link:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/489891776

The yellow neon looks great!

#1592 1 year ago

I'm trying to locate the spring mounts for the neon tube.

Does anyone have a few to spare?

Or, what springs should I get to bend my own?

#1594 1 year ago
Quoted from michiganpinball:

Parting a Locomotion . Below is a link to items on Epay. Also have PF parts not yet listed - let me know what you might need. Backglass is good but unfortunately broken on top right corner.
ebay.com link[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Will those displays work in my farfalla?

#1596 1 year ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

Nope - these are 6 digit

Drats!

Anyone have tube mounting springs?

#1598 1 year ago
Quoted from HHaase:

Any neon shops nearby? They may have something thatll work

I would think so!

#1599 1 year ago

I need to know what size tube diameter to order.

I'm going to go with either pale pink or pale yellow as seen on that twitch video. (I really like the yellow)

Does anyone know the diameter?

It looks like 10mm or 12mm from the vids I've been looking at.

Looks like 1/2" or a little smaller.

#1600 1 year ago

Will that coin door work on my farfalla?

It looks a lot better than mine.

#1601 1 year ago

Can I get my Farfalla to speak Italian?

Pinballgoddess (its her game) asked me but I couldnt see anything in the manual.

There looks to be country settings?

Dip switches set to all off for italy.
Mine are set off on off off (england?)

Do they change the language if you change the country?

It would be way cool for an Italian game to speak Italian!

#1605 1 year ago

Just when I was getting confident in my 36 year old displays...

I lost a segment:
20191101_103255 (resized).jpg

It it time to get all new led kits?

My displays are only 2 generations old now

#1606 1 year ago

What is this button for?
There are no wires connected to it.

Service?
Credits?
Decoration?

Lol

20191101_120209 (resized).jpg
#1607 1 year ago

Knocker is seized.
Plumb Bob a bit rusty.

Old bracket? Slam switch or something?

There's a wire cut off there.

20191101_120216 (resized).jpg20191101_120221 (resized).jpg
#1608 1 year ago

In the backbox I found a connector to something.

What did it go to?
It's a tiny 8 pin? There's no place for it on any PC board nearby.

But there is a hole in the metal behind it.
20191101_102145 (resized).jpg

#1609 1 year ago

I imagine thus is where my missing neon transformer goes:

20191101_102137 (resized).jpg
#1610 1 year ago

And I imagine the transformer plugs in here?

3 pin, old school euro outlet:
20191101_120407 (resized).jpg

I have adapters here somewhere lol.

#1611 1 year ago

CaptainNeo :

Do you have any spare spring keepers for the neon tube?

Or one I could copy and send back?

There's a spring guy in Utah near me that can make up a batch.

Any interest?

#1614 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

that black connector block is nothing. It was a diagnostics block plug. Doesn't do anything. button inside the coin door sometimes adds credits. I may have neon springs. I'll have to look on where I put them on the farfalla head I parted out. the wires down by the tilt in electrical tape, I believe is also standard for a coil or switch that wasn't used.

Thanks! All of this is good to hear.

And if you can find neon springs, that would be amazing!

#1615 1 year ago
Quoted from pinball_ric:

Pretty sure this is likely something on the board and not a display glass issue. So should be repairable.

How do I test for that segment?

What are the likely failure points for that segment?

All the other ones work ok.

#1617 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

it's probably the wires from the glass to the board.

Great. I'll check it out.

#1619 1 year ago
Quoted from pinball_ric:

When I got my farfalla all of the displays had the exact same segments out. Turns out something in its life before i got it something shorted out and took out ic3 I believe.
If somehow yours is the same I would suggest you get someone skilled at soldering to fix it. Pretty sure when I did mine I lifted quite a few pads.

The missing segment is only on the display that has the ball in play count, and only on the last 2 digits on the right.

So when it days ball 2 or 3 the middle line segment doesnt light.

All of the other digits in the display are unaffected. Only the last 2 numbers on the right.

I'm inclined to believe it's a loose pin or wire or bad contact?

#1623 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

you can swap it without moving the jumper just to see if it's the cable or not. But if it was the cable, the segment would be out on each of the digits.

Yes the actual display is socketed onto the board.

I can swap it to the player 4 one.

This is a great idea.

This board has been worked on before. IC 2 is socketed.

Thanks for all the great ideas guys!

20191102_101037 (resized).jpg
#1624 1 year ago
Quoted from gianfri:

I'm more convinced that you have a problem on the 2 digits element itself and not on the wiring neither on the electronics.
Those displays are multiplexed therefore, if electronics, you'll have the same defect all over the digits.
If wiring you would have the same.
It can only be the plasma 2 digits element, either a solder pad of this element or, and most problably, it's dieing after 38 years.
If you're confident enough, you can swap the 8 digits element with another working display, you'll see immediately if it's the electronics or not.

I agree.
The fault is only in the last 2 display elements.

Only 38 years old...lol!

I'm rapidly warming up to the idea of getting a complete led set of kits.

Durability down the road and no pinball killing 170v.

It's a win, win.

#1625 1 year ago

It looks very scary to pull the glass off of a good display and swap it.

38 year old crispy fried display boards...

What could go wrong? Lol!

#1626 1 year ago

gianfri and CaptainNeo for the win!

I swapped the display glass with the one on player 4.

Very crusty pins. Cleaned and deoxy5 on them.

Perfect result!

The bad 2 digit element problem moved to player 4.

Oddly it took 30 seconds for the bad element to show zeros.

It's like it had to warn up just to work at all.
Bad, outgained light element? Bad trace or contact?

Either way it's on the glass not the PC board.

Moving it to player 4 means one might never see the fault! Ummm, for now at least.

20191102_113534 (resized).jpg
#1627 1 year ago

Can someone email me a close up of the face on the butterfly woman?

I want to try my hand at making a decal to fix her nose on my game.

#1628 1 year ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

I agree swapping out the bad display with a working one would be a good test but remember the displays are numbered by jumpers on the display. You have to set the working display to the correct number and then install it. Never do any work on the game with power on,you will destroy the displays. I'd be inclined to take the player 4 display and change the jumper to the BIP display to try it. If it works I'd probably just move the BIP to player 4 after changing the jumper and leave it for now Until you find another working 8 digit (very hard to find) or swap them out to 7 digit (again hard to find unless you buy new led types someone was making)

Thanks for the swapping idea!

It got me on the right path for now.

#1629 1 year ago

#51 bulbs came today!
What a difference, I barely knew that move-ramp switch was hidden in there.

It's really a game changer.

This game is so fun!
Getting better every day.

Just a bit of elbow grease and problem solving with the help of pinside!
20191102_162241 (resized).jpg

#1630 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I may have neon springs. I'll have to look on where I put them on the farfalla head I parted out

It would be awesome if I could get even one of the retention springs. I can make some up if i have a sample, even to borrow.

#1633 1 year ago

I love how these zaccaria butterfly girls look like beat up hockey players after 38 years!

#1634 1 year ago
Quoted from rvdv:

[quoted image][quoted image]

It looks like the neon tube is 3/8" from the photo?

Can anyone verify the diameter for my replacement neon?

I need to know before I order it.

I'm getting 2 different sizes from pinside:

3/8" or 1/2"

And they are in millimeters.

So 10mm or 12mm?

I'm thinking 10mm after looking at the photo!

#1635 1 year ago

What pinball springs could I use to make the spring retainers?

They look like big extention springs.

Not shooter rod, coil return or pop bumper ones. Those are the opposite, or compression springs.

#1637 1 year ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

Maybe you could use something different than the spring retainers. THese are also used as supports for neon tubes and these are univeral.
https://www.theneonsignguystore.com/product/neon-tube-supports/universal-tube-support/

I can get low profile supports.
That's not a problem lol.

Spring retainers are best for this application.

I think the springs were implemented to keep the glass from shattering when the game is moved with the head down.

I also think that the springs attributed to the wear on the backglass in most cases if the game was moved around a bit.

If I can get a sample, I can make some up.

Also i need the actual neon tube size. Color seems to be pink or yellow lol.

#1638 1 year ago

I replaced the battery as suggested with 3.6v remote pack.

Plus to plus etc...

Game was playing perfectly with no errors before changing the battery.

I removed the board from the game to do the work. Disconnected all the cables. Reinstalled the cables. They are not offset.

Now I get no CPU led and the game wont boot.

Fuses are good and ohm out.

What do I start checking?
Bad connector?
Bad ribbon?

I was afraid of this. 38 years old runs into a lot if marginal stuff if you disturb it.
20191105_151135 (resized).jpg
20191105_151847 (resized).jpg

#1640 1 year ago
Quoted from HHaase:

Might need to give the battery some time to charge too. What voltage is it giving off?

Battery is showing 3.6v
Is there a reset to do if you change a battery?

I imagine all stored settings are gone. But I never set any.

The CPU led is not lit.

#1641 1 year ago

Well looky here!
I pulled the board to test cpu.
GND on C9-2, 5v from my workstation to C9-4.

CPU booted after 1 sec, led stable.

So I started looking all over the board for problems.

Evidently when putting jumpers in, it's not necessary to trim off the excess.
20191105_162325 (resized).jpg

I think that the jumper wires got bent up on my worksration carpet.

I didn't even look at anything on the backside of the board, after putting in the battery.

It was all from the front. A very simple procedure.

When I plugged in the board, the untrimmed wires shorted to the backplane, and of course no boot.

This was absolutely insane to find.

#1642 1 year ago

I cut off all the stupid jumper wires and yay!

Fresh boot, I think with no settings?

All I have to do is go through each one and maybe itll save them?

Is there a preset built in?

20191105_164519 (resized).jpg
#1644 1 year ago
Quoted from HHaase:

The system doesn't have any kind of pre-set, you basically end up with a default setting that is "whatever random state the data lines were at, at that moment". So yes, you need to go through and set each one individually.
Also, with each option, sometimes that random setting on an initial boot may not actually be the digit showing on the display. So you'll want to go through each setting, and loop it all the way around until it comes to the setting you want, to make sure that it really is what you think it is.
-Hans

The displays are not showing correctly and missing digits.

I wonder if something is blown now after the shorted jumpers.
20191105_164519 (resized).jpg

20191105_173735 (resized).jpg20191105_173732 (resized).jpg
#1649 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

you sure those jumpers are right for those roms? did you reseat the ribbon cable? Try disconnecting all of the other displays and flip the cable around and try it on just one display. meaning. Use one of the connectors that normally goes to a display, and plug it into the board, and use the next one in line to go to the display. That will tell you if it's a cable issue.

Is there a table for the jumper settings in the manual?

I will check it.

#1650 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

also, those jumpers are not soldered on the back at all. If the platted through on that hole is broken, it won't be following those traces on the back. I'd solder those pads on the back too, to make sure you have connection.

If I can verify the jumpers are correct. I'll solder them.

I did notice that they were poorly soldered on the back.

It was odd that they would poke thru all the way to the backboard.

Is this normal?

#1651 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

you sure those jumpers are right for those roms? did you reseat the ribbon cable? Try disconnecting all of the other displays and flip the cable around and try it on just one display. meaning. Use one of the connectors that normally goes to a display, and plug it into the board, and use the next one in line to go to the display. That will tell you if it's a cable issue.

Game was running very well before this event.

I did reseat all the display connections.

There are other issues.

A hum coming from the playfield now. Very mild buzzing.

The game starts with bad displays and a hum.

The game takes credits but wont launch a ball. Another solenoid fires weakly but not the ball kicker.

All of this after grounding out the jumpers i think.

Its possible that the jumpers are not connected properly.

but I dont know what the behavior would be if that is the case.

Something might be wrong with the logic?

#1655 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

jumpers should be.
J1- A
J2- b
j3 - c
J4 - f
J5- H
j6- Y
J7- K
J8 - L

I'll check it in a little while.
I'll solder them in properly and report back.

I think its jumper problems?

That seems to be the only thing that was disturbed/shorted.

The game is acting really weird now.

#1658 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

jumpers should be.
J1- A
J2- b
j3 - c
J4 - f
J5- H
j6- Y
J7- K
J8 - L

All good.

20191106_140408 (resized).jpg
#1659 1 year ago

Thanks for all the help.

Other than work out the repairs on this CPU board, I just ordered a Black edition board from pinball solutions.
I also ordered a set of 7 digit led displays.

I hope they are in stock ! LOL.

My feeling is that WTF am I doing...! Its a 38 year old board, and a brand new one is available that includes free play roms etc.

I'm getting a new one.

Also might get the driver board too. Mine is very crusty, but works for now.

#1660 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

well with those wires like that. i'm sure they were shorting against the grounding panel in the backbox. May have shorted something out. Hope you clipped them off first.

The game surprised me! I didnt even know that the wires were there. I didnt check for this. Who would? its an insane way to work on something.

I have never seen anything like it in 45 years of work.

Oh well, its pinball LOL.

I hope my new board comes soon!

#1662 1 year ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

check the fuses on the power board and under playfield (if I recall there are some fuses under the playfield).
its very good the game starts, thats over half the battle.
there are some troubleshooting tips here if you want to get it running.
Its a bunch of reading but if you are going to own zacs you have to understand them.
You are lucky there are replacement boards and displays available but not everything is available so learning to troubleshoot will help if you have an issue.
http://www.pinrepair.com/zac/

My game was running perfectly before shorting the jumpers to the back panel.

I ordered a new CPU board.

It's been hacked way too many times.

I think that this will solve my current problem.

Driver board next maybe!

I'm trying to get the game stable.

After 38 years, it's just not going to be rock solid.

But it can be, with some new parts!

#1664 1 year ago
Quoted from pinball_ric:

Picked up a new set of calipers today so took a measurement of the neon tube on my Farfalla since the backglass was already out. The calipers read 12.11mm but I didn't try to get it real tight since they were metal.

12mm it is!
Thank you so much!

#1666 1 year ago

Ill have to agree with this! Age is not necessarily a meter of durability, But usage definitely is!

"Its not the years, honey. It's the miles...!"

However, my game is built on cast off, hacked and worn out boards. Not gently used at all LOL.

Im excited to be getting new electronics! Now my game will be mostly trouble free for years to come I hope.

Ill post the repair when it comes next week.

#1667 1 year ago

I received my new cpu board today.

Thank you gianfri

What a beautiful board!
Easy install, super high quality.

And FREE PLAY roms!

I love it.

However the damage is just too severe on my game.

This board alone did not solve any of my problems.

Remember, i had a perfectly running game.

Now I have no yellow drop targets reset or power.

Melted coil on the orange drop target bank.

Buzzing, locked coil on the ball launch kicker.

Moving ramp is down and wont activate.

Relay r2 on the power board is loudly buzzing and pulsing when driver board is connected.

And low power anemic performance all around.

There may be more damage but I'll tend to it bit by bit.

So I ordered the driver board next.
20191112_171612 (resized).jpg

I manually checked all the coils.

They seem ok and not melted yet.

#1668 1 year ago

All of my displays are ruined now after the short.

These are plugged into the new CPU board alone with the other boards disconnected.

They are behaving the same as the old original board.

My assessment is that they are really badly damaged.

It's ok. They aren't the right ones for my game anyway.

I bought the led kits and hope to have the new displays mostly done this weekend.

With hope, my new driver board will come next week and my game will be up and running again!

20191112_171649 (resized).jpg
#1670 1 year ago

gianfri is a GOD! LOL.

These led displays are amazing and beautiful!

All my display trouble is gone!

The kits are incredibly easy to build and the parts are top notch!

I had them all built in about 4 hours.

Zero errors. Super easy.

For the first time since owning my game, I finally have the correct displays! And they run on 5v so they wont catch on fire down the road lol.
20191113_193659 (resized).jpg

I'm very happy with them.

Now, time to shotgun the driver board...

#1672 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

i've had to build about 60 of those displays already. They are fantastic .

I'm ecstatic about them!

Now, does anyone want my old displays?

Complete with boards?

I would gladly trade them for neon springs!

#1673 1 year ago
Quoted from Alan_L:

Looks like you fixed her nose, not a bad job. A pinball rhinoplasty?

Not yet. But working on it.

#1675 1 year ago
Quoted from gianfri:

Thanks for your nice words, it's always a satisfaction when pinball lovers apreciate the amount of hours we spend in developing and producing new products.
Didn't you forget to install the foam light shields around the LED digits?
They will remove the light glare around the digits.

I'll install the foam pads when I add the metal brackets off the old displays to make them more permanent.

I was so impressed with the new led displays, I had to take a picture as soon as they were done.

The last display #5 was still hot from the workbench when I powered it up lol!

#1676 1 year ago

I'm making up a list of parts to modify or cross reference, for flipper kits.

I might have to make the flipper links, or have them made.

Does anyone have a cross reference parts list already started?

#1677 1 year ago

Does anyone know the voltage of the neon transformer?

I'm thinking is should be around 3000v.

Does that sound correct?

#1678 1 year ago

Changed out fuse clips today.
They were pretty corroded and a little burnt.

My game is still a little over amped in the fuses. New fuses are coming.
20191116_111806 (resized).jpg

I'm thinking of changing out all the caps in the power supply.

They work, but I imagine they are out of spec after 38 years.

They dont last forever....

#1680 1 year ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

Change stuff thats broken, leave anything thats working alone! You don't want to go over these games and attempt to bulletproof them.

Yeah, my game is a bit fragile.
In hoping to stabilise it.

Fuse clips were a regular maintenance job.

I have 1 oddball bridge rectifier that was replaced at some point, in the group. But it works!

The caps look filthy and smoky.

#1681 1 year ago

Decided to fire up the old power supply board after replacing the fuse clips.

No other adjustments, just clips and new fuses.

R6 caught fire and D1 cracked a bit so it's toast.

Its amazing what having proper connections after decades of misuse can do!

No fuses blew.

Note the missing SCR1 on this power board...hmmmm.

I guess someone needed it elsewhere. It' was actually carefully unsoldered and removed from the board.

Probably removed because F1 kept blowing.
20191116_135216 (resized).jpg

The whole 170v system is trashed probably lol.

I cut the lead in R6 to keep that circuit out of mischief.

And pulled out fuse F1.

I'm wondering what caused the resistor to light up?

Missing SCR-1?

No power draw from the displays?

Age?

Way more current available with new fuse clips?

All of the above? Lol

I dunno, I half expected this though.

I did a 1978 bally playboy in similar condition.

It caught fire many times until I bulletproof the power supply and fixed all the 200v displays.

#1682 1 year ago

I know that since I put in all LED didplays, I dont need the 170v section any more...

In fact, I can probably remove all of the components in that section.

Pretty much like the last game zaccaria made with led displays
(New stars Phoenix).

(Same power board, missing all of the 170v section).
ns-power-large (resized).jpg

So, I plugged in the boards one by one.

All is good, nothing smoking.
Square sounds button makes speech.

CPU board boots up.

My game has been buzzing, farting and puking since the grounded jumper fiasco.

I plugged in the driver board....

No buzzing, no squeeling, no farting and no puking. Most importantly no melting of coils!

Started a game and HOLY CRAP!

WTF??!?!

All targets reset, everything works.

So, I played a game. Everything is perfect!

Lol.

#1683 1 year ago

So. WTF!!??

Admittedly my power board has had a lot of repairs in its life.

So, a bad 170v section can trash the whole game?

Massive short causing serious voltage drops in the 39v?

Upset the driver board, etc?

Really weird. Really interesting.
I'm not even sure where to look on this. It's strange.

#1684 1 year ago

Thinking about this.

Someone can probably make a fresh power supply board pretty cheap without the 170v section (or maybe even with it).

There's not much to it.

I'd be in for a kit.

#1685 1 year ago

About my game, CaptainNeo is right.

Evidently there was a big pile of hacked, blown and set aside used zaccaria parts somewhere.

So, seeing a farfalla cabinet nearby in a vacant lot, someone decided to build a marginal barely playing game.

That's how I think my game was born!

It sure runs good now.
Better every day!

Cant wait to see the new driver board from gianfri !

Maybe next week...

Just posted 2, million point games!
I just love Farfalla!

#1687 1 year ago
Quoted from gianfri:

I'll be honest with you, I fully agree with luvthatapex2
When it works, just don't touch it
This thread is stressing me because it's like a thriller movie, there is always something going on behind the corner
Anyway, here something for you:
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
So there is a U type hook which is placed around the neon and the spring which is screwed into the hook.

That is fascinating and amazing!

Those pictures are perfect!

I was completely unaware that the retainers were 2 pieces.

Thank you so much.

I definitely need a sample to copy.

It looks easy enough.

.7mm spring and maybe 1.5mm flatwire?

I'm excited to try to make some of these.

#1688 1 year ago

Thinking about the led displays...

It might be good to tell people to remove fuse F1 from the power supply board after the LEDs are up and running.

This should shut down the 170v system that's not being used and prevent any high voltage failures that might lead to a fire lol.

This might protect from any problems in the future?

#1691 1 year ago
Quoted from gianfri:

I agree, actually I was sure it was already indicated but apparently I did it on the Bally/Stern displays and not on the Zaccaria user's guide lol
But to be clear and avoid misunderstanding with other users reading this chat, the accident with your 170v was not related to the LED displays, the fuse option is just an option, good option, but not necessary in order to use the LED displays.

Ansolutely!

The led displays had no part in the power supply failure.

That was destined to fully fail at some point.

Due to age, abuse and missing parts etc.

I'm glad it failed in my workshop under test where I have all the tools and repair equipment lol.

(And a fire extinguisher...)

#1692 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

nvm. Didn't know that was R6, can't see a label.

Its labeled under the component.

I think it's a 47ohm 3watt ceramic.

David's pic (though good) is not quite good enough to see the labels.

#1693 1 year ago

When I get the spring retainers made, I'll be ready for the neon tube.

Unfortunately my power box service outlet fitting is all cracked up from age.

I bought some adapters for it but, the plastic wont hold it. Just too damaged.

Also its euro lol.

So I installed a mini outlet box for the neon as well as for soldering iron, worklights, boombox etc.

It's all to code, fully grounded etc.
It's off the input side of the line cord and doesnt run thru the game.
20191119_121259 (resized).jpg

I'll tear into the power box later when I do the clearcoated playfield swap.

#1694 1 year ago

I added new cabinet flipper switches yesterday.

The old ones were pitted pretty bad and filing them down worked somewhat. But one pair was worn at a 45 degree angle.
20191122_130239 (resized).jpg

Can I add capacitors to the flipper switches to limit the arcing/sparking? Similar to other games?

https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/28690

Has anyone done this?

elsw-0119 (resized).jpg
#1695 1 year ago

One of my flipper covers wont stay on.

For the moment I moved it to the upper flipper, they are way weaker.

It doesn't snap on very tightly.

What are people doing to get these to be more secure?

Or are they just putting on different flippers?

What is a good suitable replacement?

My game is getting a lot of play now that it's mostly fixed.

#1696 1 year ago

I ended up putting a layer or 2 of 3M tape adhesive all around the inside edge of the cap.

If that fails to hold, I'm thinking of trying some of the 3M VHB tape adhesive, it's really sticky and doesn't dry out.

The problem is that the plastic is a bit oily. Nothing sticks to it.

Seems to work for now.
20191123_162521 (resized).jpg20191123_162529 (resized).jpg

#1697 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

I ended up putting a layer or 2 of 3M tape adhesive all around the inside edge of the cap.
Seems to work for now.

If that fails maybe a bit of the 3M VHB? Its really stcky.
[quoted image][quoted image]

#1698 1 year ago

Just posted a pretty good game on farfalla 3.5 mil.

The tape adhesive held well up in the upper flipper cap that was falling off.

No smoking, puking or buzzing!
One pop bumper coil was a little warm.

I put in the correct right flipper coil (D50 S 600)that was wrong (D45 S 500).

Now you can make the ramp much easier.

Marco has these in stock as well as pinball heaven (cheaper).

The new displays are amazing, the nee CPU board is amazing, the game is coming along nicely!

20191123_154710 (resized).jpg

#1703 1 year ago
Quoted from Future_Primitive:

No, Zaccaria pinball isn't a new thing for me at all, I've been dedicated to collecting these machines for many years. However, I recently decided to start participating here on Pinside. Thanks for your warm welcome CaptainNeo

Welcome!

Maybe you have some left over farfalla parts!

Let me know.

#1704 1 year ago

I replaced my broken flipper coil today!

It wasn't shorted and actually tests out.

Only the plastic bobbin is cracked and broken where the leads attach.

But to avoid another fire....lol.

The coils from Marco are perfect.
20191127_130725 (resized).jpg

1 week later
#1705 1 year ago

I finally installed my new driver board!

It amazing. I love the led read out for the coils, very cool.

Coil one shows locked on.
Its not, it's working perfectly, but its also not killing the transistor.

Transistor 14 smoked and died.
Interesting, as there isnt anything on that circuit.

I have already fixed and replaced it.

Game plays fine.

I'll have to check for a short.
The original driver board isnt smoking or heating up the same transistor at all.

#1707 1 year ago
Quoted from gianfri:

Coil one is the coin coil, it's always active when the machine is switched ON, it's there for locking the coin mechanism, so it's normal.
For the rest, write to me in private in order to investigate your other point.

Wow! Thanks for the coin door tip. Makes total sense.

I haven't torn the coin door down yet.

It looks like it was recovered from deep in the ocean lol.

#1710 1 year ago
Quoted from gianfri:

I'm running a stock clean up on conversion kits for 8 digits Zaccaria displays (only the second version), if interested:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-product-zaccaria-led-displays#post-5354814
_________________________________________
Pinball Solutions
www.pinballsolutions.eu
LED displays for Zaccaria, Bally/Stern, Williams/Data East and much more... visit our website.

My new pinballsolutions displays are GLORIOUS!

Its the best thing you can do.

1 week later
#1714 1 year ago
Quoted from fat-johnny:

I have seen one source say that in some machines, previous repair people have cut the white wire responsible for this power fail signal, and that allows the game to boot. Do you think it is worthwhile or advisable to cut the white wire, and see what happens?? Can you give me someplace to start looking, such as "diode D9 always fails" or something?? Any thoughts on what this could be? Does anybody even sell a replacement power supply board??
Thanks for any help,
FJ

Maybe test or rebuild the power supply board.

3 weeks later
#1730 1 year ago
Quoted from MagicCastle:

This is what the same two flippers on the Robot look like. These have the spring over the plunger. As i said above these match the manual . All four flippers on the Magic Castle have the same side spring setup . Have i got a rebuild ?? or is the manual drawing wrong ?[quoted image][quoted image]

Those side springs look like an added modification.
Maybe an attempt to upgrade them to later williams type return springs.
This mod should make them a bit snappier. They might return faster.

Plunger type springs are weak.

I would leave them alone unless you just want to make them the same as the manual.

Clean all the contacts on all the switches and clean the plungers, they might work better.

There are no parts available, but some parts from Gottleib and Bally cross over.