I have my fingers crossed, as I should be joining this club tomorrow. Scheduled to pick up a Devil Riders in the morning.
I have my fingers crossed, as I should be joining this club tomorrow. Scheduled to pick up a Devil Riders in the morning.
And I’m in a new club officially. Heading back home with a Devil Riders in the trailer. Fun times are here again!
Quoted from pinball_ric:
Now we just need a code update to your OLED display board for Zac's.
Part of the reason I bought one, actually. I know the functionality is similar enough to Bally that getting one to work should get both to work.
I don't know why, but I'm always a sucker for underdogs and under-appreciated stuff. So I'm hoping to give some love to the Zac's out there.
He's referring to the small display unit I make, for doing board repair on the bench. I've been promising some code updates for it for quite a long time, but never had a machine in the shop to figure a few things out.
Started diving into my new machine, which is actually the one Pinballer22 was discussing a couple pages back.
The issue is most likely with the CPU board. There are a few old repairs on the clocking circuit at IC13/14/15 that could be the culprit's. Typical missing pads, crusty brown flux, a few jumper wires. It's partially booting, and does kinda respond to dip switch #4, but ends up just flashing zeros on all the displays. The good news is these repairs all got sockets, though not the best soldering job.
Interestingly the CPU, sound, and driver boards all look to be conformal coated at some point. Never worked on a Zac before, but never seen this on a pinball board from any other manufacturer. Normally something that's only done if there are environmental concerns. Are they all like this? Seems to be an acrylic coating too, as isopropyl alcohol is taking it off easily. Could explain the reputation for these boards to be difficult to solder on.
Neat way of doing their schematics, but also hard to follow in some regards. Wish there was a map for the test points somewhere.
Silly question. What flipper bat color is correct for Devil Riders? Mine are a bit mismatched. Blue on the main playfield, red on the top. I don't believe either set is original.
Nope, not normal at all for a fuse to do that. Something is drawing too much power, but juuuuust barely enough to not pop the fuse. Either that or it's the wrong value fuse and the problem is still present that caused the normal value to blow.
Ok, what's the trick to changing the lights behind the 6 targets on the lower playfield of Devil Riders, along the back wall.
I'll see what I can sort out on a drive belt for the motorcycle, I have a few ideas to try. I'm guessing the correct sized o-ring would be what you need, and if they're all rotted out at this point the originals were probably buna rubber.
Looks like Zac's are LED sensitive to some brands. I've got a box of about 30 LED's right now that were in the game when I bought it, but weren't working at all. Replace with a different brand and the circuits are just fine. Really down to just a few small things now before declaring my game fully operational.
That's what I was afraid of, but it wasn't anywhere near as bad as I expected it to be. I've got good LED's in there now. The plain comet cool/warm white frosted are my normal go-to, the ones you buy in the 100 pack. Those work just fine. I'm actually surprised at how little GI lighting is in this game compared to all the other machines I've worked on. I think there's only like 6 bulbs on the playfield in the GI.
Other than waiting on some flipper rubbers, my playfield is now 100% functional. This is the exciting part of a project machine when everything is coming together and you see tangible results. Once I get it going is when I'll start doing some product development. I've already got some good ideas on things to work on.
For the drive belt on Devil Riders, head to the hardware store and ask for a #38 o-ring. Looks to fit perfectly without too much tension, drives my bike fine. If that's not tight enough, can also use a #25 but wasn't sure if it was too much tension. Should be able to grab both for under $2.00 total.
You guys have me watching videos for Locomotion now, been wanting a train themed game for a while but didn’t know of any in the solid state era.
I kept thinking that the videos must have been next to a black knight, I kept hearing familiar sounds, I didn’t realize at first locomotion used a lot of the same sounds.
Quoted from Its_me_aj:
I started working on Magic Castle again and have numerous problems. I was doing some reading a found out that my IC4 chip had a 2114 in it as well as a little corrosion on the chip holder. I looked into replaced for the correct chip and found that Pinitech makes a NVRAM for the gen2, bought one and put it in as well as replaced the holder. They game held memory for a few but went back to defaults. Also all coils will engergize and blow F5 fuse. This doesn't happen every time I turn it on though. If I disconnect a ribbon cable form the CPU it will boot just fine. But if all of them are connected it is more likely that there will be an error and blow F5.
Also when I go into audits and I switch dipswitch 4 on, I do not get the binging noise. There is also no noise when I add credits. The other thing I found is that if there is credits on the game and I turn it off, the credits reset. And finally, when I go into display tests all but one display cycle through the numbers. One of them stays at 00000000. Could this be why when a game is started, there is no blinking display to indicate what player is up?
I’m going to have to report another instance of a pinitech NVRAM causing coil lockup problems. My Devil Riders was working just fine but without a battery. Swapped in the NVRAM and it started randomly locking coils on startup.
Last time I powered it up I didn’t notice a stuck pop bumper, until the coil started to melt and the board transistor blew out. My own fault it got so bad, I completely forgot to check the fuses to make sure values were correct.
Also seemed to respond a lot slower in some ways. The reaction flippers were most obvious. I wonder if the NVRAM causes issues on the data bus and this screws with the I/O circuits. I’ll have to look into the speeds on the NVRAM compared to the original style.
Unfortunately the bad coil is on the bottom left pop bumper and looks like I have to pull the upper left flipper too in order to work on it.
On a happy note I’m also starting to test some 3D printed flipper bags. Anybody have a pair of short flipper shafts? My game has Bally flippers for the main two and the top playfield just won’t be enough of a durability test.
Yep, very familiar with memory capacitors. I used to install a good number of them on Williams boards before the NVRAM's became a thing.
I was up in the air on which way to go for this machine.
Kinda glad I went the route I did if it helps resolve a lot of other problems for people, and goes into the general Zaccaria knowledge base.
Don't mind sacrificing the coil and transistor if that's how it goes.
Yeah, that was the first thing I noticed that made me suspect the NVRAM, was how everything went so sluggish immediately after installing it. Even the sounds seemed different and less responsive. Reaction flippers are about a quarter second slower with the NVRAM than a standard RAM chip. I do find it interesting how the Zaccaria boardset CPU will still run with huge segments of the board set not functioning or missing.
With the Brinks chips, can you post up the part number on the actual RAM chip they use? Like I said, I'm suspecting this is tolerance stacking or something of that nature, and not a fault with the NVRAM itself. Interesting to see if it's faster/slower than what pinitech uses.
Quoted from kbliznick:
I had the same NVRAM installed into my Farfalla and didn't notice any issues. I think I saw the right outlane flipper lock on once on start-up but didn't have any coils melt down.
All depends on what's causing the oddness. If it's mixing in ROM data to the I/O somehow, the symptoms could be game specific.
Makes me want a good logic analyzer again. One nice thing about the 2650 processor series is you can de-clock it and run them in step mode. Would be able to see what signal differences are going on. But I don't have the time or equipment to do that right now. Maybe after I hit the lotto and build that new shop.
Pfffft.... I'm not in the least upset, nor worried, nor concerned. No apologies needed here. I was going to e-mail you this evening to ask your opinion, but wanted to see if the 'hive mind' may have more info to give you. I hate just saying there's a problem with no data to back it up.
There's more than enough room for another one, and I've already got sockets in both locations. So I'm all for buying another and giving it a whirl. Want me to just do that over the website? Or did you want to send me a paypal invoice? You should have my e-mail already. Hadn't even thought about the split RAM space between the two to be honest.
Sounds like I may also be able to test this in a Farfalla soon..... if my current PM string works out
Just got the tracking number for that other NVRAM, and I have a new coil on the way too.
So I'll report back once I get them installed.
Coming back with an NVRAM report. Installed a 2nd NVRAM, which puts them in both locations IC4 and IC5.
The weirdness appears to have disappeared. No more locked coils, any everything seems to be functioning normally again.
Still an early report here, I want to do more of a burn-in test, but looking good so far.
Played for a couple hours. Many power cycles. No hiccups to report with the NVRAM in both locations.
No recurrence of the locked coils I was having. This includes the right react flipper, lower left pop bumper, and bike motor, which were all the most common ones giving me problems.
Looks like Zaccaria games just need to replace both locations.
Inner backglass also has a latch on it, similar to lamp boards from most other manufacturers. Make sure that is latched.
Anybody want to do some durability testing on some PETG 3D printed flipper bats?
Took a few tries to get the 3D model where I wanted but I think it's ready for more open testing.
I currently only have red filament on hand.
Yep...... jealous for sure. I've put Spooky on my wishlist but definitely not in my price range right now.
I'm about 90% done bringing my Devil Riders back to life finally. Plays just fine, and have some more LED's on the way to finish up the changeover. Though I have found out that 4 of the 5 display glasses are bad on mine. I checked all the solder joints, ohmed out the transistors and resistors, swapped them around all sorts of ways. It's just the obvious problem that I only have a single good display.
Not surprised or upset about this though. I've actually got protoype boards for LED displays sitting here. Lots of work to go before I think they're ready to install, the first version has numerous dimensional issues. Not sure how far down that particular rabbit hole I'm going to travel.
I'm also finding that the 2nd NVRAM doesn't QUITE solve the locked coils issue. I'm still getting my knocker coil firing on startup occasionally. I may still go back to standard RAM and a remote battery.
Getting Zaccaria support for stuff is why I bought this game
Now that the game is up and running I’m going to get hold of my code guy.
Anybody have an original style flipper shaft they can spare? Mine has a pair of Bally flippers on the lowers, and I want to give my 3D printed ones some more durability testing. But I only have one flipper shaft.
Working with my code developer on adding the Zaccaria to my bench displays.
The more I look into how these displays work, the more I really am appreciating the hardware design that Zaccaria did.
To help him out I did a writeup on the theory of operation for the displays, and I think I'll upload that to Pinwiki at some point.
I don't know yet anything on timeline, or if it will even work properly yet.
Still quite early in the process but it IS in process.
The good news though is that because Zaccaria was so consistent in their design, if/when the bench displays are done they'll cover all the gen1 and gen2 machines.
Yes. Setting #31 set to 00 turns off the extra time, set it to 01 to turn on the extra time.
I'm all for doing small boards, it's right in my wheelhouse. I know there's a chase light board and a 'settings' board, if I can get a sample of those I can make 'em for sure.
My guess is that Gianfri's next board would be a gen1 driver board..... so I won't look at doing that one.
But I've made a strategic decision to not do power supplies due to risk, especially high voltage stuff.
Quoted from swampwiz:
You could print the original white flipper bats too. They look like Gottlieb's, but don't have the shoe, so they are much lighter.
White would be no-problem at all. I just need to give the current process/design/material a good testing to make sure they'll survive. If I knew they would be durable enough, I could have them on my website for sale tonight in any color you wanted.
But the upper flippers on Devil Riders aren't exactly hard hitting. So I still need one more flipper shaft to install a lower pair in my game and give them a good thrashing. Haven't found any yet for sale.
Quoted from pinball_ric:
Do you know what games have special boards? I have most of the more common gen 2 games.
Looks like just a few of the Gen1 games had special boards from what I can see. A chase lamp board in locomotion, and an inline switch settings board for the first few games. I don't see any for Gen2 that I can find, except the sound daughterboard used in spooky.
IIRC there was a couple simple boards in the EM games too.
Quoted from pinball_ric:
Well I can definitely get you anything you'd need for the sound daughter board for spooky but there probably isn't much demand there.
No, and probably outside my ability right now anyway. Sounds boards get weird with signal paths and things like that. More art than anything else to get them to sound right.
Beautiful Farfalla, glad to see you finally got one!
Been doing some research this morning on lamp shields for the backbox. I'm going to start selling some 3D printed lamp shields for Zaccaria games shortly, I just need to tweak the designs a bit more to get them where I want. Looks like 9-10 games used the same set of lamp shields as Devil Riders.
I've got some flipper shafts on the way so I can start better durability testing on my flipper bat design too.
Interestingly enough, I did come across a schematic for another unique PCB for the Gen2 games. Soccer Kings has a unique 2-digit display board on the playfield, by the upper playfield flipper. Very weirdly driven by the solenoid drivers. Going to PM the guy who's selling a Soccer Kings right now on pinside and see if he can snap some photos of it.
I think there was a guy in Colorado looking for one, he has a thread somewhere.
When I played the Magic Castle that 'thekorn' had at MGC this year, I felt it was really floaty as well.
Looks like a 'clothed farfalla' inner backglass just popped up on ebay this morning.
Didn't give it a close look, since I'm not in the market, but it's there.
At a bit of a crossroads with finishing up my Devil Riders. It's only got 1 good display, and I thought I'd have some fun doing my own set of LED's, as a learning experience. Never really intended on selling any, just wanted to see if I could do it. Basically I wanted to ignore the schematics everybody else has done, and figure out how to make it work my own way.
I'm getting close, but my 2nd set of prototypes just went into the trash today. Thankfully I only built 1. I have all the digits in reverse order, already have a couple jumper wires because I made a couple mistakes.... then I hooked it up with the connector in the wrong direction and blew the whole thing out.
Not sure if I should forge ahead for the sake of succeeding in this challenge, or just pack it in and order a set of displays.
Quoted from gianfri:
I'm not the right person to tell you what to do
But it's sad when you discover that your prototypes are good for the rubbish, I have produced some of those useful prototypes
Once I even succeeded to print PCBs without the tracks, just the pads, I was so disgusted
I ordered some one time without any holes drilled. Whoops!
I'd probably be more motivated if I didn't have two unfinished projects next to each other, dividing my attention.
Well, I'm still going to try and find where I went wrong, but new set has been ordered as well.
Need to get this machine finished finally.
3D printed flipper bats are doing well in testing on my Devil Riders. So I'm going to open them up for sale. Don't have any blue material yet, I'll order that in a few days, starting with red first. Currently only doing the bats, not the covers.
I'd love to do the winged flipper bats too, but I'd need a sample to get measurements from.
So far yes. Had one bat the cover didn’t fit well but I think I’m also wearing out the covers I have from snapping them on and off so many times
I'm trying to get it as transparent as I can, and am using transparent red filament, but it comes out more of a translucent.
It's just the bat, and I'll get the photos updated shortly.
The transparency is the main reason I'm not doing the caps right now. I can probably get the design very close, but won't be able to make them transparent. The caps are much much more important to have properly transparent. If I had a spare $2,000 sitting around I could buy a printer that will do everything the correct transparent color, but that will be quite a while until I have enough saved up for that.
Next project for my 3D printed parts will be the inlane/outlane rollover pieces.
Anybody have a coin switch they are willing to part with? One of mine is dead, and I actually (weirdly) try to make sure all my coin doors are in good order.
Well, my intermittent sound board on my devil riders has gone dead on me finally. I just get a clicking / buzzing noise. Previously it was intermittently booting, but would go weeks without a problem. Now it just don't go at all.
May just send the board to Dave this time. I have too much going on right now to spend the time diagnosing it.
I used the pinitech nvram. Found I had to replace both RAM locations or weird things happened on startup. Still get an occasional locked coil on the knocker but at least its easy to hear and I can work around it.
You know, I've been thinking about those 8 digit displays in your Farfalla. I wouldn't change them yet. They should have serial number stickers on them, I'd check to see if the numbers match the game, and the other boards. Might be something unique going on there.
Might need to give the battery some time to charge too. What voltage is it giving off?
The system doesn't have any kind of pre-set, you basically end up with a default setting that is "whatever random state the data lines were at, at that moment". So yes, you need to go through and set each one individually.
Also, with each option, sometimes that random setting on an initial boot may not actually be the digit showing on the display. So you'll want to go through each setting, and loop it all the way around until it comes to the setting you want, to make sure that it really is what you think it is.
Since the missing digits are the same on all displays, I would start with checking the wiring connector for bad pins at the cpu board
Quoted from fat-johnny:
Hi. My name is John, and I am from Cleveland, Ohio (USA). I came across this site from a Google search.
I have a Zaccaria Devil Riders (1984), and it recently started having a problem. When I turn it on, the playfield lights and back glass lights turn on OK, but the game does not start. The score displays just flash on and off, about once per second.
I opened the head, and I don’t see anything obviously burnt or exploded. There IS a RED LED on the board on the top left that flashed in time with the displays, about once per second.
I have found some resources online that tell me to disconnect all plugs except plug #1 from the power supply board (lower right), and check fuses and voltages, so I think I am going to start there in the next day or two…..but I was just wondering if yall experts had any obvious advice for me. Like “Oh yeah, flashing once per second, it’s definitely THIS…”
Any thoughts? Thanks in advance for the help. I hope to learn a lot here. (Well…..at least enough to fix my Devil Riders!!)
PS….or does anybody know anyone in the Cleveland, OH area that fixes Zaccaria pinballs?
I just went through this a couple months ago. But, I can't remember squat about it.
Thankfully I did have a thread running on here you can reference.
Fantastic solution. Looks original but nowhere near as fragile or expensive. Is it RGB?
Very nice! Always jealous of the awesome free pins that people snag sometimes, glad it went to somebody who will enjoy it.
I found on my Devil Riders that it was far far far worse if only one of the two RAM locations had an NVRAM in it. When I had NVRAM's in both locations it was rare to have a lockup on startup, but it did happen.
Anybody have a source on Devil Riders drop targets? The guy who bought mine broke a couple.
I haven't had much feedback on the flipper bats, I'd love to hear how well they work, good or bad.
I MAY be offering caps in the near future, I'm just so backlogged I haven't had a chance to develop a reliable process for the new printer yet.
Quoted from gianfri:
I'm still not convinced
I would be more on the opinion that it was a defect on the single NVRAM but I prefer not to insist, those NVRAMs are a suffrance for me due to the annoying assembly process.
There's likely some nuance with which RAM chip is used, how certain parts of the schematic are done, and things of that nature. It does seem that if you use a single NVRAM board that goes into both RAM locations may be the superior option.
I do know that when I had my Devil Riders, using a single NVRAM caused nearly 100% coil locking on startup. Particularly one specific pop bumper locked every time. Going with NVRAM in both locations dramatically reduced the amount of lockups, but it did still happen on an occasional basis. Going back to standard RAM eliminated the lockups completely. I think it may Kris Bliznick who was able to replicate the issue on his own Devil Riders with identical symptoms, down to the same locking coils.
Making another shot here, anybody have a busted winged flipper I can have? Would like to measure one up to offer as 3D printed. Would highly prefer to base it on an original instead of one of the thingiverse files out there.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside