10k on PF glass? Who's the bright one here?

I'm sure it's good stuff, but can we see a pic with an equal source of reflection? I see a window reflection on the "bad glass" and nothing on the left. Also, is that new, clean glass on the right? I have plain old pinball glass on all my pins and none look that cloudy.

Right ... I'll save you $10,000 (presuming you have 33 pins)

1/ Some of the new Sterns do reflect on the glass. Avengers is pretty bad. Austin powers was too. Get some painters masking tape and mask up one side of the Flouro tube. The side facing the translite. Cost - maybe 50c. Saving - $299.50 per machine

2/ your BW games reflecting on the glass? I can't say I have had that problem to be honest. If you do, simply remove some of the translight bulbs. A lot of these BW games have too many bulbs anyway, and they make too much heat. Remove some. Less glare, less heat. Winner.

3/ you got really carried away and put SFB LEDS in the backbox. Take them out. They look awful. 30 tiny round bright lights on your translight. GHASTLY. Replace them with frosted retro dome tops. They are more subtle and won't glare on the glass.

4/ your room lighting is all wrong. Fix it. Directional track lighting with dimmable halogen bulbs is ideal. You can dim them to a pleasant level (I like it right in the middle ... Not dark, not bright) You can direct the bulbs away from the glass. This lighting is pretty cheap .. About the same price as a couple of sheets of expensive glass.

There! I hope I have saved you all some money.

Money is hard to come by. Hang on to it as long as you can

rd.

Now thats not very nice and a little judgmental towards Markmon. If he wants to purchase nice glass for his machines thats his prerogative.

Agree that directional track lighting would be ideal in a home gameroom--but would sub the halogens for LEDs.

Problem with halogens is they give off too much heat: a deal breaker in hot climates like mine...that might be a good thing elsewhere though.

: )

How come every thread I can remember pushing this glass turns into a crapfest within a few posts?

I can't comment on this glass or the seller's real world character, but threads that go in this direction all the time are off-putting (so and so is a liar, donate to my kids college fund etc etc...).

And we all know how easily Markmon's feelings get hurt...

The man has means and takes his pins seriously. I would love to buy high end glass for all my games, but just cannot justify spending 3.5 K to do so.

Phoof, you really do not know how to present yourself or your product. Present yourself as neutral as possible, complimenting your competitors and explaining why there is a place for you in the market and what you envision that market to be. But it is too late for that now as you have already made your bed.

I wouldn't buy from you simply because of how unnecessarily contentious you are and cause things to become.

Dan

2 sons in_ College. No cheap a$$ here.

Good luck!!Sounds and looks like a great product.I myself have never seen the need for any type of glass upgrade.I never notice the glare when I'm playing and have no prob following the ball.For me a new piece of regular glass with no scratches is has enough clarity.Scott

Unfortunately, it really is super nice. I play the machines at my house and keep my glass super clean and it definitely looks nice. I go to markmon's and constantly forget the glass is on there. Only some of his games have glareguards, but not all for sure. Not even needed. It is expensive as heck, but it makes a very noticeable difference.

I have also been considering a glass upgrade, but would not buy from someone who conducts them self in a fashion such as yourself Phoof.

I'll chime in for him since you feel the need to knock markmon without much knowledge.

1. I'm not sure if any of his sterns at this point have the tube in them. I believe they all have custom LED strip backbox kits in them. Fairly confident on this.

2. I missed the post where he said that his b/w games reflect. In fact, he states it is not about DMD glare or backbox glare, that isn't the point of getting PDI.

3. 1 answered this well

4. No overhead lights are ever on. Strip lighting on the top corners of the room and it is behind all machines.

And to the op. I don't think people are saying your product is garbage at all. The suggestions I am seeing are that you acknowledge your competitors product is still very nice. Yours is not bad at all, markmon even said it is a great mid range glass, which is how you had advertised it. Markmon bought some of your glass, did not like how it compared and bought other glass. Whats it to you what he spends his money on? I don't see that as your business. Markmon gave you a plug for being a fast and honest seller. In the online selling world that is a pretty good compliment, but you continued to crap on him and call him a liar. I mean, come on dude, just be neutral and mentioned above. I wouldn't buy from you at this point solely because I'm worried I'd be crapped on for posting a review of the glass

I ordered one wide and one standard from him. The glass is beveled. It looks nice standing up. It's a bit thicker, and helped with rattle in a bassy pin.

That said, it is not one iota better, glare-wise, than standard glass. It doesn't hold a candle to Invisiglass or PDI, both of which I have in a few games. Waste of money, IMHO.

Do not know the OP, Phoog, but no where in his post is he disparaging PDI or Invisiglass. He is offering an alternative. Is PDI or Invisiglass better? ...from reports/tests yes. That is not the question. The question should be, is it 3X better than what Phoog is offering, or is it a good enough alternative for anybody that cannot afford, or doesn't like the price point of 300+ shipping for PDI/Invisiglass.

Can't afford a BMW, here is what a Hyundai Genesis offers you type of sales thread.

Exactly!

Can't believe that I got two thumbs down for saying that this thread smells like Spam.

Did you read the thread title?

I personally wouldn't ever think of paying more than 25 bucks for a sheet of playfield glass. But, that's what makes this hobby great. Lots of options!

I called it first!

Rob:

Were you reading my mind? This is getting scary.....

Dan

exactly what i was thinking... a light source directly in front of both glass.

Anyone have some popcorn?

Anyone have some popcorn?

there you go.

popcorn.jpg

kill em with kindness phoog!!

You title your thread, "You won't even think of getting invisiglass or PDI", and I'm the one being dramatic?

Anyone gonna have either brands on their machines at the MGC this year? I want to see first hand.

Did you?

He wasn't bashing it on quality, but again what you get for the price.

Like I said: "Can't afford a BMW, here is what a Hyundai Genesis offers you type of sales thread."

He never states his is better, just a better bang for your buck.

So is the ultimate glass just tempered, starfire glass? It's a low iron glass which is why you don't get the green hue to it around the edges...these edges will be blue. If this is the case, they will scratch more easily than regular tempered glass because the low iron takes away from the hardness. I sell shower doors like this, and I know starfire has been around for at least 8 or so years, as I saw it starting out in the aquarium hobby. Just curious...

Adam

Phoog, if you want me to take some non-partisan actual comparison pics between your glass and standard glass, and post my unbiased review, I'll be happy to do it. I can set up a standard environment with plenty of glare and show the differences. I actually thing your glass is probably better for making the game mechs a little quieter and killing the rattle like pinlawyer suggests, but I don't think anyone is sold on the idea that your glass is comparable to PDI or invisiglass... If it really does make the mechs quieter, it would be great for games like No Fear, with the rattling skull, and Xmen with the spinner/etc.

-Wes

Phoog,

have you read and understood what I wrote in the past in your thread "New Amazing Pinball Glass" ?
If you don't know, don't say it and don't call other people liars...you might be wrong.

About the videos:
EDGE COLOR:
The first video shows three samples of glass.
Starting left there is a piece of clear float glass (green color, used as pinball glass), then there is a low iron oxide glass (light blue tint, which is comparable to Phoogs glass in respect of edge color) and there is a borosilicate glass, which is the clearest. This glass is used in the pharmaceutical industry. Depending on the manufacturer there are small deltas between the ingredients and their ratio.

LIGHT TRANSMISSION:
The second video shows how negligible the edge color is, if viewed face on.
I’ve added a clear float glass with sanded edges and a black frame. You can see that the left piece is slightly darker, when
it’s located direcly on a surface, but when lifted (like it is installed in a game), the difference is insignificant (players view or face on).
This was the reason, why I was questioning Phoog’s comparison picture on the floor from his website.
Technically spoken 3/16 “ clear float glass has 88% light transmission and low iron oxide glass has 91,5%.

REFLECTION AND GLARE:
The third video is a stress test for the glass.
1. Sample : Clear float glass (green, not surface treated or coated)
2. Sample : Low iron oxide glass (light blue tint, not surface treated or coated)
3. Sample : Borosilicate glass (transparent, neutral, one layer AR-treatment)
4. Sample : Clear float glass (green, edges sanded, black framed, 3 layer AR-treatment)

I’m expecting from and appealing on Phoog to respect and consider what has been brought to him.
His website still shows misleading information about his product for visitors
who are interested to aquire the glass in good faith. I’m not questioning the product, I’m questioning
how information is transported to me/to the visitor. I’m not eager to see which glass is the bee’s knees
in regard on how it performs and of course the price, beeing the most important question for many.
For those who wanted to know, I’m selling my glass (aka PDI glass in the US) in Germany for 125 EUR/$165 without local sales tax
and 150 EUR/$198 including the sales tax.
My advertised product can be viewed here
http://www.flippermarkt.de/community/forum/showthread.php?t=62539
Alternative videos can be viewed here
http://vimeo.com/35399954
http://vimeo.com/34852592
http://vimeo.com/34448364

EDGE COLOR is not an indication for a „good“ or „bad“ piece of glass. Field of application (painting, display, aquarium, pinball a.s.o.)
and surface treatment is more important.

GLASS THICKNESS shouldn’t be the main focus to reduce noise. The use of fireproof cushioning in the cab, cushioned leg protectors
and rubber footies will reduce noise more efficient.

GLASS THICKESS AND STRENGTH between a 3/16“ and ¼“ is not relevant with tempered glass in pinball unless you want to have an elephant joining you from the glass while you play pinball. Glass thickness is not an advantage, it only raises the cost. Making Phoog’s
glass 3/16“ thick could be an option for him to get rid of the 1“ bevels, to reduce raw material, process cost and the final price.

LESS GLARE can’t be achieved with clearer glass, it needs to be treated/coated.
I’ve found this explanation from Dupont/US.
http://www2.dupont.com/Diffuse_Light_Reflectors/en_US/assets/downloads/NOW801_AR_Sell_Sheet_me05-21.pdf

Dear Phoog,
with all respect and all the knowledge you have brought to us as an glass industry veteran, you must admit, that some (especially me )will compare
and question the information which have been provided with the product , not your product and not you in person. You are an expert in your industry and only because of that I can’t imagine that you didn’t know about all that what we are discussing here.
The reason why I jumped in wasn’t to protect my product, to compare it with others or to offend anybody.
My focus is to avoid that the community is misleaded/misinformed and that somebody would allege that you haven’t given
them the necessary background information in regard of your comparisons.
It’s up to you to regard or disregard my well-intentioned advice.

That last video is hilarious!

Phoog,

how many people tried to tell you and tried to convince you in the past that your comparisons
are misleading ?
Your product is more transparent than a regular sheet of glass, but it's not comparable in price and performance with Invisglass or PDI.
It's an alternative product to regular glass.
If you state that Invisiglass or PDI is overpriced than you should be able to tell the audience
where to source it (same quality, same performance) for less money. Both companies (JJP and PDI) sell it for high Dollar, but
that's their business, as long there is no serious (alternative & less expensive) competition.
Low iron oxide glass cost 10 EUR ~ $13.3 (market price) more than regular, green floatglass.
That means, you're trying to make people believe that your product is something special and it's not.
Stop fooling the community and stop bashing other companies products. This harms your image.
You're walking on very thin ice as long as you proceed argueing like you do.

Bump ... Phoog, can you respond to this?

Just looking for two clean sheets of glass in an equal comparison.

I may be a customer if I can get a better sense of the difference.

Thanks.

He's not forcing anyone to buy the stuff. I thought the thread title and first comment was crystal clear where he is coming from.The guy is just trying to give us some options and I thank him for that. Im going to order a sheet of the ultimate to try it out on my TZ.

I need glass for two machines. Phoog's comments and demeanor in this thread has helped me eliminate his glass from consideration. Thank you for narrowing my choices to your competition.

Phoog, your issue you are creating seems to be that every time someone posts an opinion that they are not in favor of your glass you bash the heck out of them. I'd say just accept the criticism and carry on!

I'm just guessing...but maybe...

F*#$ing trainwreck.

nope, Phooging train wreck : )

This was a strange thread. I was aware of Phoog's glass as a cheaper alternative to Invisiglass or PDI, but the way he comes across could deter buyers who don't want to be called 'idiots,' 'jerks,' or 'liars.' I guess I'll stick with my normal, scratched up cheap-o glass until I win the lottery.

At any rate, IBTL.

Since I've already been called a liar, jerk, and idiot I have nothing to lose so...
For anyone that wants Phoog quality glass without the drama there are two alternatives:

1) Gene at Illinois pinball has something similar for around $100 a sheet. Not on his website so call him. Everyone should know gene is a decent honest guy to deal with. I saw it at the Seattle show and it was at least as clear as phoogs if not better.

2) almost every local glass company can order "starfire" glass for you tempered and cut to size. Unfortunately it's 1/4" thick so it may be tough to slide in some cases. You may be able to get them to bevel the sides down to 3/16 for you if you ask.

I'll take the chance on a sheet of the non-beveled glass and see how it does. I don't expect it to reduce glare but if the clarity is better than standard glass then I'll be happy with that. I'll post before and after pics too. I don't have a large collection, but we'll see how it does with Led's.