(Topic ID: 220718)

Yet another Gottlieb Hot Shot restoration Q


By Runbikeskilee

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 18 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by jrpinball
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 2 years ago

I too have been working on restoring a Gott Hot Shot. The machine was a basket case that I rescued from the basement of a house that was being rehabbed for flipping. It was completely dead, with several missing parts assemblies, and someone had painted the cabinet over with a brush using blue & red house paint.

I had never owned a Gottlieb 4-player EM before and put in a lot of sweat equity and had some good help from another Pinsider. Now have the game booting and mostly working properly.

I note that when booting the machine for a 1-player game, one of the latter steps in the sequence is for the 4 large drop-target bank reset solenoids to fire and raise all the targets. No problem there. If I then press the credit button again to enter additional players, the machine fires all the drop target reset solenoids one time for each additional player added.

Is that the way this era of machine was supposed to work, or do I still have a bug to search for?

My understanding of the schematic is that these solenoids will fire every time the S relay energizes (by pressing the credit button?). Seems like a lot of unecessary pounding on the target bank reset parts occurs with this step? Is my machine operating correctly?

#2 2 years ago

Far as i know that's normal. Mine does the same thing

#3 2 years ago

Yes..this is normal.

#4 2 years ago

Thanks King and Bonzo. Good to know it is normal behavior; it didn't seem right that the machine kept firing the big target reset solenoids just to add players. That explains some of the wear I can see in the metal parts of the drop target reset mechanisms.

This machine has been a piece of work with dozens of issues, including the bonus count. I learned a lot from a previous thread about HS bonus accuracy.

Lee

#5 2 years ago

Based on the number of topics, Hot Shot is one of the most problematic em pins.

#6 2 years ago
Quoted from bonzo71:

Based on the number of topics, Hot Shot is one of the most problematic em pins.

It's basically your standard four player Gottlieb until you start dealing with the bonus, and that is really out of the ordinary. Because it's not a usual add bonus then count down at the drain, it's different. There's no bonus ladder where it just counts down from wherever to zero. It will count bonus using one circuit then change to another circuit when it skips over balls that have not been lit, then return to the other circuit to resume scoring the bonus. I've never seen anything quite like it. It's interesting to watch and listen to in action, but troubleshooting it is not necessarily the easiest thing in the world.

#7 2 years ago

It sure is a clunky old EM. Makes me really appreciate the simplicity (and relative quiet ) of a wedgehead.

#8 2 years ago

If I recall correctly Hot Shot was Gottliebs first attempt at a "search" bonus and even then it wasn't used very often compared to the bonus ladder. It seems they got it right with later games like target alpha though I can't vouch for reliability.

After spending the later part of 3 weeks trying to fix the bonus on mine though, I gotta say it blows my mind how those engineers were able to do so much with such simple technology.

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from KingofKoopas:

If I recall correctly Hot Shot was Gottliebs first attempt at a "search" bonus and even then it wasn't used very often compared to the bonus ladder. It seems they got it right with later games like target alpha though I can't vouch for reliability.
After spending the later part of 3 weeks trying to fix the bonus on mine though, I gotta say it blows my mind how those engineers were able to do so much with such simple technology.

There was a lot of genius on how they were able to make these games with basically just switches and relays and motors and steppers. Pretty damned amazing.

I've played it but don't remember, Sure Shot was configured like this, did it use the same method of counting the bonus?

#10 2 years ago

I owned a Sure Shot a number of years ago, but really don't clearly recall how it did the bonus.
My guess would be that it was different than Hot Shot/Big Shot, as I do not specifically remember the "2-speed" bonus scheme and the cacophony of sounds.

#11 2 years ago
Quoted from EMsInKC:

It's basically your standard four player Gottlieb until you start dealing with the bonus, and that is really out of the ordinary.

And the bonus for HS is explained fairly well by markg in this post:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hot-shot-bonus-accuracy-#post-4454410

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from EMsInKC:

I've played it but don't remember, Sure Shot was configured like this, did it use the same method of counting the bonus?

Never owned one but based on videos and pictures of the under playfield on IPDB, it uses a similar method to the one used in target alpha. As far as I've seen the method used to count the bonus on HS was only used on HS.

#13 2 years ago

I think Jack in the Box/Jumping Jack would have been the first instance for them to use scanned bonus. Being based on 10 targets and only requiring 2 motor cycles, it might have been less problematic than Hot/Big Shot. But they can be a bugger too. Then, a similar system appears on High Hand. Then later on Hot/Big Shot.

Jumping Jack and JITB have their bonus collect issues just like Hot Shot. When you see the production numbers (8300/4975 & 9000/2900) you can see how outrageously popular those titles had to have been and therefore saw a whole lot of use during their early years.

Quick/Fast Draw can be a bit problematic for standard bonus ladder collect because they had to juice 6 pulses out of a motor cycle to produce the high speed count down of 3X bonus on last ball (potential 45,000 in 3 motor cycles).

Hot Shot, Jack in the Box, and High Hand are three of my favorite EMs specifically because of how uniquely sounding they are in scanning, stopping, scoring or even changing back and forth between different score values (100 vs 1000 on High Hand). Music to my ears!

One of their bigger timing nightmares is the Man on Base system used on Grand Slam.

There have been their fair share of bonus collect postings for Target Alpha and Solar City. A similar issue is Bonus Collect on High Score/300 and Soccer and Super Soccer with the physical balls being the bonus ladder. They do not always sit, roll or remain stationary which can cause problems too.

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from SirScott:

And the bonus for HS is explained fairly well by markg in this post:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hot-shot-bonus-accuracy-#post-4454410

We read that explanation and followed it, along with our own knowledge and reading of the schematic. Still a PITA.

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

I think Jack in the Box/Jumping Jack would have been the first instance for them to use scanned bonus. Being based on 10 targets and only requiring 2 motor cycles, it might have been less problematic than Hot/Big Shot. But they can be a bugger too. Then, a similar system appears on High Hand. Then later on Hot/Big Shot.
Jumping Jack and JITB have their bonus collect issues just like Hot Shot. When you see the production numbers (8300/4975 & 9000/2900) you can see how outrageously popular those titles had to have been and therefore saw a whole lot of use during their early years.
Quick/Fast Draw can be a bit problematic for standard bonus ladder collect because they had to juice 6 pulses out of a motor cycle to produce the high speed count down of 3X bonus on last ball (potential 45,000 in 3 motor cycles).
Hot Shot, Jack in the Box, and High Hand are three of my favorite EMs specifically because of how uniquely sounding they are in scanning, stopping, scoring or even changing back and forth between different score values (100 vs 1000 on High Hand). Music to my ears!
One of their bigger timing nightmares is the Man on Base system used on Grand Slam.
There have been their fair share of bonus collect postings for Target Alpha and Solar City. A similar issue is Bonus Collect on High Score/300 and Soccer and Super Soccer with the physical balls being the bonus ladder. They do not always sit, roll or remain stationary which can cause problems too.

Well, it is certainly interesting to watch/listen to it function, but when it is malfunctioning, the music is pretty much a sour note...

We'd be standing there counting the bonus off as it did its thing, and it should advance once and you could hear it skipping when it shouldn't have. Those short frame Gottlieb relays are a nightmare, especially when you have a lot of switches on them, and even more so when there are m/b switches involved. The tolerances for adjustment are just so minute.

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from SirScott:

And the bonus for HS is explained fairly well by markg in this post:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hot-shot-bonus-accuracy-#post-4454410

Yes, I had read Mark's great explanation and found it very helpful in understanding the circuitry and function.

My Hot Shot was also intermittently short-changing the bonus scoring by 1, 2, or very occasionally 3, but ONLY when a double-digit number of balls were lit. It absolutely NEVER shortchanged for counts of 9 bonus or less. In testing by manually collecting bonus for 1, 2, or 3 drop targets, it never would malfunction, over many dozens of tests and/or games played. Even for bonus counts of 10-15, it was quite erratic, sometimes short changing 1 or 2, and sometimes not short changing at all. If you observed it closely with say 15 bonus lit, you could hear the stepper go into the fast-count mode once or twice when it should not have, and thus, skip over lit balls and fail to score them. The issue was not dependent on which balls were lit or not lit. I can often figure out potential causes of problems by studying the schematic, but this time I was stumped as to why the issue was only occurring with double-digit # of bonus scored.

Not sure exactly what I did to fix it, but the issue is gone. I ended up going through every single switch in the bonus collection circuits (mainly the I and J relays) at least 3 times and I finally stumbled on whatever it was. My "guess" is that the issue was in the make/break switch within the I relay. It was a typical Gottlieb short-throw relay with very small tolerance to adjust the gaps when one switch was supposed to be open. Perhaps the center blade got to bouncing due to the vibration of firing the stepper multiple times in a row and it forced the stepper into the fast scan mode? I don't know, but that was the last thing I worked on and the issue seems to be corrected.

Lee

#17 2 years ago

My game is scoring accurately, but sometimes is takes too long to sense the next target. I indicated this thread as fixed, but I'm going to try some of these other suggestions to see if I can get it working perfectly.

#18 2 years ago

I once owned a "Hot Shot" that was a re-import, and was fitted with a 50HZ motor. While I never noticed any problems tallying the bonus, I did notice that the score reels would sometimes shortchange the 50/500 scores because of the faster pulses from the motor cam switch. It was one of my earliest pin acquisitions, and I never thought to look into it. Sold it long ago.

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