(Topic ID: 313922)

Yet another F14 flashers not working thread

By Homeslice666

11 months ago


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F-14 Tomcat Retrofittinig the Proto-Flasher.pdf (PDF preview)
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There are 55 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 11 months ago

The four flashers in F14's backbox are supposed to light when you "lose" the game, correct? None of the four light on mine.

All of the flashers work in my game except Flasher #7 and #10. My machine is a regular production machine and I only have two flashers on the ramp, so #7 should do nothing as far as I know.

When running through the diagnostics for Flasher #10 the two backbox bulbs faintly flash and the two ramp bulbs (white and blue) faintly glow. Pulling one backbox bulb makes the other bulb brightly flash during test. Jumping the ground terminal to the drive terminal on the backbox resistor board causes all four bulbs to illuminate. I have already replaced any faulty dropping resistors throughout the game and inspected all of the warming resistors. I also replaced the header pins at 1J11, 12, and 19.

Anyone have a hunch as to what might be causing this? Thanks in advance!

#2 11 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

Anyone have a hunch as to what might be causing this? Thanks in advance!

A bad transistor.

#3 11 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

A bad transistor.

Any suggestions as to which one? One of the lamp matrix transistors?

#4 11 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

Any suggestions as to which one? One of the lamp matrix transistors?

Flashers are driven by solenoid drivers. Inside page of your manual. Get from ipdb.org if you don't have one.

Info in the chart attached from the manual, does not seem to be 100% correct in terms of # of flashers involved since it says flasher 10 is 2 backbox and 1 playfield.

The Flasher 7 is on the C side so maybe your a/c relay isn't working properly, if 7 is still an issue. Don't remember which flashers were removed on F-14 at least in terms of their #'s.

pasted_image (resized).png

#5 11 months ago

I did not realize the solenoid table listed the associated transistor. So it is Q14 I need to inspect/replace. Thank you Grumpy and Slochar!

Flasher #7 was pulled by Williams. I'd like to reinstall this in the future.

#6 11 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

I did not realize the solenoid table listed the associated transistor. So it is Q14 I need to inspect/replace. Thank you Grumpy and Slochar!
Flasher #7 was pulled by Williams. I'd like to reinstall this in the future.

Were these flashers working before and then failed?...or have they never worked? (depending on answer, a different course of troubleshooting)
Just to make sure, since it wasn't mentioned - both bulbs are the correct #89's? You said they were dim, usually when the driver transistor fail they fail completely dead...only very occasionally they fail partially.

slochar - keep in mind that there is only one A/C relay, and if the AC relay is bad it will affect all of the switched coils & flashers, not just one.

#7 11 months ago
Quoted from wayout440:

keep in mind that there is only one A/C relay, and if the AC relay is bad it will affect all of the switched coils & flashers, not just one.

I suppose I should have read his initial post better since he says all the other flashers work. I read the message yesterday on my phone and replied today when I could highlight/paste the page in so bad for me.

And boo to data east for making the default a/c side the flashers! Duh. Feel like that's always appropriate to mention whenever a/c side stuff comes up.

#8 11 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

I did not realize the solenoid table listed the associated transistor. So it is Q14 I need to inspect/replace. Thank you Grumpy and Slochar!
Flasher #7 was pulled by Williams. I'd like to reinstall this in the future.

So if you were to ground the metal tab of Q-14 with a jumper connected to the ground braid, does the flashers light now?

#9 11 months ago

I replaced Q14 before I saw your post, sorry Grumpy.

Replaced Q14 with a TIP102. Lights now on full time. Then replaced Q10, ran test, lights flashed as they should although dim. I started a game to see if the lights lit at the end. Halfway through the game the lights locked on full brightness. Pulling 1J12 causes the lights to go out. Perhaps the faulty Q10 fried my new Q14? I also used a 2N4401 for Q10 and did NOT change any pinouts on either transistor.

The only hackery I can find on the board is this array resistor hack. I'm hoping to replace this with a new array resistor after (or if) I fix this flasher.

20220420_191114 (resized).jpg
#10 11 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

I replaced Q14 before I saw your post, sorry Grumpy.

No big.

Quoted from Homeslice666:

Perhaps the faulty Q10 fried my new Q14?

Maybe?

Quoted from Homeslice666:

I also used a 2N4401 for Q10

This is a correct part.

Quoted from Homeslice666:

and did NOT change any pinouts on either transistor.

???

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I would use a logic probe or DMM and test the output of U-17 pin 8. In attract mode pin 8 should be a low/0.8 volts.

#11 11 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

Flasher #7 was pulled by Williams. I'd like to reinstall this in the future.

Flasher #7 may not be implemented in software. I would take some measurements before bothering to install any parts or make any mods.

#12 11 months ago
Quoted from pins4u:

Flasher #7 may not be implemented in software. I would take some measurements before bothering to install any parts or make any mods.

Flasher #7 is implemented in software, it only doesn't operate because the circuit & bulb hardware is removed. It can be restored by reversing the steps of the original mod to remove it. There's a helpful video at the link below.
https://www.ipdb.org/files/804/Williams_1987_F_14_Tomcat_Service_Bulletin_41.pdf

#13 11 months ago

Pin #8 on U17 is .19V

#14 11 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

I'd like to reinstall this in the future.

Send me your email and I'll can send you the PDF file that I have to make the necessary changes. It will be Monday before I can send it. I will out of town this weekend.

F-14 Tomcat Retrofittinig the Proto-Flasher.pdf
#15 11 months ago

OH! The PDF does work if you click on it.

#16 11 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

Pin #8 on U17 is .19V

This seem normal, now check SR5 pin 9 in attract mode. Should be 0.0 volts.

#17 11 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

This seem normal, now check SR5 pin 9 in attract mode. Should be 0.0 volts.

Assuming that pin #1 is the one closest to the white dot printed on the pcb, pin #9 is .008 volts

#18 11 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

Assuming that pin #1 is the one closest to the white dot printed on the pcb, pin #9 is .008 volts

Correct the white dot is pin #1.

This would indicate that Q-10 is still good. So this just leaves Q-14. Now the question remains why Q-14 went bad? Are you running standard #89 bulbs or leds? After replacing Q-14 I think I would do a current test manually on this circuit before turning on Q-14. This can be done by using your DMM in series with this circuit. Set DMM to DC current, move red lead connection to correct spot, hook black lead under ground braid, turn on game, then touch red lead to Q-14 metal tab. Read meter and disconnect red lead. What do you get?

#19 11 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Correct the white dot is pin #1.
This would indicate that Q-10 is still good. So this just leaves Q-14. Now the question remains why Q-14 went bad? Are you running standard #89 bulbs or leds? After replacing Q-14 I think I would do a current test manually on this circuit before turning on Q-14. This can be done by using your DMM in series with this circuit. Set DMM to DC current, move red lead connection to correct spot, hook black lead under ground braid, turn on game, then touch red lead to Q-14 metal tab. Read meter and disconnect red lead. What do you get?

Existing Q-14 with #89 bulbs. Connected red lead of dmm to 10A port. Set dial to 10A. Touching metal tab of Q-14 reads .73 in both flasher test mode and in "on".

#20 11 months ago
Quoted from Hangernade:

. Touching metal tab of Q-14 reads .73 in both

That seems fine too. Maybe you just got a bad TIP 102. It happens.

#21 11 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

That seems fine too. Maybe you just got a bad TIP 102. It happens.

Could a loose bulb socket cause these issues? I noticed the one spins a bit on the backboard and I had to hold it from the back to get the bulb to lock in.

#22 11 months ago
Quoted from Hangernade:

Could a loose bulb socket cause these issues?

The wire solder tabs can sometimes spin around and touch each other, this will be a short circuit. If this happens it will pop the transistor the first time it turns on. You may have inadvertently spun the wire tabs apart when you changed the bulb removing the short, but the TIP was already damaged. This is something I always check when I bring home a new game for the first time.

#23 11 months ago

Replaced Q14 again. During test mode flasher #10 backbox flashers flash dimly. After game ends no backbox flashers light at all. Two are supposed to light when game ends, right?

I did notice one of the filaments had a very slight orange glow when the game was in attract mode. Could the warming resistors be on their way out?

#24 11 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

Replaced Q14 again. During test mode flasher #10 backbox flashers flash dimly. After game ends no backbox flashers light at all. Two are supposed to light when game ends, right?
I did notice one of the filaments had a very slight orange glow when the game was in attract mode. Could the warming resistors be on their way out?

No, the whole idea of the warming resistors is to pass a small current through the lamps while they are idling. If the resistors were failing 'high resistance' (which is by far the most common failure mode of resistors) you wouldn't see ANY glow.

Because you CAN see a glow I would say they are doing the job perfectly!

#25 11 months ago

Flashers light britely when tab on Q14 is grounded. For reasons unknown the bulbs started flickering then stayed lit during game play.

#26 11 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

For reasons unknown the bulbs started flickering then stayed lit during game play.

Is there any alkaline damage to CPU board?

#27 11 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Is there any alkaline damage to CPU board?

Board is acid free. Only obvious issue I see is that resistor hack I posted above.

#28 11 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

Only obvious issue I see is that resistor hack I posted above.

Well as SRC-6 goes, that was a very good temporary repair. I don't think that this is the cause of your flasher issue, but you never know. Either you have a part that is randomly acting up (U-17) which is smoking the driver transistor or maybe this Hack is causing erratic switch closures causing the driver transistor to lock on. Replacing SRC-6 with a non capacitor resistor pack is well documented on System 11s. Try that with a new TIP102 and retest.

#29 11 months ago

Is it worth replacing U17 at this time? I need to order more TIP102s so I don't mind buying a few.

#30 11 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

Board is acid free. Only obvious issue I see is that resistor hack I posted above.

Please keep your terminology correct to avoid misunderstandings.

There is NO ACID on the main board. Any leakage is from ALKALINE batteries (usually) and alkaline is the exact opposite of acid.

#31 11 months ago
Quoted from pins4u:

Please keep your terminology correct to avoid misunderstandings.
There is NO ACID on the main board. Any leakage is from ALKALINE batteries (usually) and alkaline is the exact opposite of acid.

Come on I think everyone knows what he meant.

#32 11 months ago
Quoted from radium:

Come on I think everyone knows what he meant.

Yes, they probably did but if one incorrect thing is "OK" then I could start calling resistors, capacitors and triacs, transistors - you know what I mean....

Let's try and keep the correct terminology to avoid misunderstandings - PARTICULARLY important when people who are unfamiliar with electronics are attempting to repair something WAY beyond their skill level!

Let's face it, many asking for help here have trouble knowing which end of a soldering iron to hold let alone make a sound solder joint without destroying the board!

#33 11 months ago
Quoted from pins4u:

Yes, they probably did but if one incorrect thing is "OK" then I could start calling resistors, capacitors and triacs, transistors - you know what I mean....
Let's try and keep the correct terminology to avoid misunderstandings - PARTICULARLY important when people who are unfamiliar with electronics are attempting to repair something WAY beyond their skill level!
Let's face it, many asking for help here have trouble knowing which end of a soldering iron to hold let alone make a sound solder joint without destroying the board!

849ECB1F-7299-4DA0-9AEB-56DB19042749.gif

#34 11 months ago
Quoted from radium:

[quoted image]

No problem, as long as he replaces all of the SCR's then checks the value of all the connecting wires (should read about 127 microbreweries each) then we are good to go.

Isn't it better to try and educate people rather than allow them to continue down an incorrect path? One small mistake leads to bigger and bigger misunderstandings.

#35 11 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

Is it worth replacing U17 at this time?

Since you know SRC-6 is bad, then replacing this first might be the way to go for now. I would purchase some AND gates just to have on hand anyway. Also some chip sockets too.

#36 11 months ago
Quoted from pins4u:

Please keep your terminology correct to avoid misunderstandings.
There is NO ACID on the main board. Any leakage is from ALKALINE batteries (usually) and alkaline is the exact opposite of acid.

I cannot observe any corrosion on the MPU

#37 11 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Since you know SRC-6 is bad, then replacing this first might be the way to go for now. I would purchase some AND gates just to have on hand anyway. Also some chip sockets too.

...what are AND gates? Sorry I have my tech limitations!

#38 11 months ago

Google is your friend:
and gates (resized).png

#39 11 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

...what are AND gates? Sorry I have my tech limitations!

There are many TTL logic gates used on the CPU board. U-17 in the circuit you are working on is an AND gate. It has a part # 7408 under the label.

https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/7408

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=7408

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#40 11 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:There are many TTL logic gates used on the CPU board. U-17 in the circuit you are working on is an AND gate. It has a part # 7408 under the label.
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/7408
https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=7408
[quoted image][quoted image]

Got it, thank you. I understood ICs, but AND gates were above my head.

I also tried googling first

#41 11 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

Got it, thank you. I understood ICs, but AND gates were above my head.
I also tried googling first

There are literally hundreds of thousands of ICs and they all do different things. The term "IC is just generic for a small package of micro electronics it doesn't describe the function of the device where saying it is an "AND gate" does.

#42 10 months ago

I'm still waiting on parts to arrive, btw.

Can anyone confirm when the four backbox #89s are supposed to illuminate? On mine two of them fire during game play. I thought two or four of them were supposed to illuminate (or flash/flicker?) during the end scene.

I played another machine in an arcade today and they were always on, so now I'm unsure of how they're supposed to work.

#43 10 months ago

The 4 flashers in the backbox, alternate back and forth in pairs during the game and at the end of the game.

1 week later
#44 10 months ago

Grumpy, I replaced SRC-6 and Q14. Bulbs on full time again. Attract mode normal. After idling a few minutes the game began acting very erratic, various solenoids firing rapidly and random in-game sounds going off. This lasted a second or two before I killed power.

Pulled board, no shorts or obvious damage.

My next course of action is to replace U17 and Q14 again. Probably Q10 for good measure since I bought spares. If you do not suggest this please let me know.

#45 10 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

After idling a few minutes the game began acting very erratic, various solenoids firing rapidly and random in-game sounds going off. This lasted a second or two before I killed power.

You either have alkaline damage or you have bad game rom sockets. If your board looks good maybe you should change sockets if your able.

rom (resized).PNG
#46 10 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

You either have alkaline damage or you have bad game rom sockets. If your board looks good maybe you should change sockets if your able.
[quoted image]

I can change sockets.

Do you believe that the sockets are experiencing intermittent connection issues - which caused the erratic behavior, and the flasher issue is something separate?

#47 10 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

Do you believe that the sockets are experiencing intermittent connection issues - which caused the erratic behavior

I have seen this before, but not very common. The flashers could also be part of the erratic behavior.

#48 10 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

Grumpy, I replaced SRC-6 and Q14. Bulbs on full time again. Attract mode normal. After idling a few minutes the game began acting very erratic, various solenoids firing rapidly and random in-game sounds going off. This lasted a second or two before I killed power.
Pulled board, no shorts or obvious damage.
My next course of action is to replace U17 and Q14 again. Probably Q10 for good measure since I bought spares. If you do not suggest this please let me know.

Sounds like garbage on the data or address bus. An easier solution before you pull out the soldering iron again. Is to either replace the CPUs (the chips themselves not the board) with known good ones, or use a logic probe to poke around the pins to see if any critical ones aren't strobing. Preferably the logic probe first along with voltage checks with a meter to make sure nothings wrong that's going to also destroy your good CPUs. It could be a PIA too, which you can also do the same procedure too. But really once you start getting this deep, unless you really know what you're doing, it's probably best to just buy a new after market board.

#49 10 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

I have seen this before, but not very common. The flashers could also be part of the erratic behavior.

The erratic behavior only occurs when a good Q14 is installed, it seems. The previous owner was using this game as-is, and I played a crap-ton of games with Flasher #10 not working.

I'm thinking the erratic behavior is related to a good TIP102 installed at Q14 and not faulty sockets. Please keep in mind this is just my thoughts and I don't claim to be any sort of expert. If I'm full of it please let me know!

There is no visible alkaline damage to the board.

I'm thinking about replacing the AND gate at U17 because I have them on hand, testing, and seeing where that goes. Please let me know if this is reasonable or if I shouldn't waste my time.

#50 10 months ago
Quoted from Homeslice666:

I'm thinking the erratic behavior is related to a good TIP102 installed at Q14 and not faulty sockets.

I understand that something on the play field could be miss wired/shorted and be causing damage to Q-14, but this can't set off random sounds. Now if U-10 was to be acting up it could set off some coils( solenoids 9-16) and some sounds. But bad sockets on the CPU chips could cause this also. U-10 isn't socketed from the factory so you can't swap in a different one for easy testing. Williams did use cheap sockets that are @ 35 years old now. I can't tell you which is the best direction to go, from my couch. But you know what your options are.

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