I feel your pain, this is why I ended up cutting my losses with X-men and still have yet to buy TF. Seems like any game Lyman works on gets polished faster and brings the game to the top of many pinball players lists. These other guys have a lot to learn from his work ethic.

This is certainly the perception. Lyman cranks out great code and deep updates. If stern came out and told us "Ok, Lyman is taking over the XMEN code, expect new code in November", I'd be a lot happier than the "Ok, we're giving it the old college try with the new guys one last time, expect an update in February"...

No offense to the other developers, but the track record speaks for itself.

-Wes

Does it feel better after venting?....good. Sorry about the disappointment...

I feel your pain as well. As a fellow Xmen owner I was sure hoping for some Xmas goodness with an update, and instead we pretty much got the exact opposite. I also saw that ACDC update yesterday and thought the same thing as yourself (ie. what about Xmen?). I can understand that this software stuff takes time, and I'd much rather get a great update rather than a piecemeal one, and I can definitely wait a while if I knew a great update was on the way. It's hard though when you don't really know what's happening.

All I know is that our Xmen is sure gathering a lot of dust lately. It looks great, have to give it that. My mom always taught me to have patience, and patience I have, but it is starting to wear a little thin. I'm hoping for something good to happen at some point soon with the code, sure would be nice!

If you follow Sterns updates... they are usually released with a rerun.

Xmen is getting rerun in March..I'm guessing you'll see it then.

I have no idea what to think with TF...

I completely agree with you about the communication. Hell..when 1.63 (ACDC) was released there wasn't even an announcment.

But hey.. 'Where are YOU playing pinball this weekend?'

Well said OP. Stern is horrible at communication. XMEN is a total disaster. Still waiting on TF code... My money is going elsewhere. JJP, etc.

i wonder if the code releases are held up because of demanding on unresponsive license holders. Code should be bound by license same as art or storyline. Maybe ACDC is much more friendly or attentive to these updates than marvel or hasbro. Not try to blindly defend here. but legal stuff can roadblock seemingly simple things.

Wow, it really makes a person think about considering a NIB. As with most code updates, the QA & testing phase can be a PIA because you not only have to make sure the new code functions as expected, but you also have to make sure changes did not break anything. Not always easy, especially for newer programmers.

I will patiently wait for the update and hopefully it will work out for the best.

Inconsistent

This is key. This is SO key....they need to communicate - clearly, consistently...and NOT when pushed in a corner to do so. It doesn't cost anything...but the benefits are enormous.

I don't speak for Stern, but the codes for these games are being worked on and will be updated sometime in the near future.

One could make a strong argument that the tf code is completed..and what is missing is all the add'l goodies many of us TF owners want.
On the other hand, its a horse of a different color to come out publicly and state that TF is getting a code up date by Christmas (2012) and not deliver. That is the problem now. For that alone, I hope Stern makes a move in a postive direction.

XM code gets worse over time. I have no faith in the code guys on XM whatsoever if they are on any future release I will stay far away. In fact to me, I would just as happy Stern were to fire them and replace with someone who knows what they are doing. That may sound harsh, but this is the big leagues if you can not cut it, you should gone. Learn how to program on your own time, not on a flagship pin.

Hire programers that can do justice to what is a world class theme, maybe let the new guys get them coffee.

Yup.. I couldn't agree more. But the problem is the one time they announced and upcoming update (Xmen and TF by Christmas) they failed to deliver on one...and the other was obviously rushed out and a total shitfest.

What would be AWESOME to see is a monthly update...something like:

We've fixed X, Y and Z on Xmen...we're working on A,B and C enhancements.

It make absolutely no sense why they are so secretive with this stuff. Times have changed...social media is free for the most part. A good chunk of pinball owners are collectors now..and not OPs that don't particularly care if there's a update or not (no disrespect to OPs obviously).

Damnit...give a us sign!

I think its time to send a note to our distributors. They have more pull with Stern than we do. I for one will not buy another nib until this is made right.

If all they did was fix the Wolvie callouts to a more manageable level that would have been most welcome. As you mention, just a small software fix would have been great. Not asking for much...

I agree with the OP XM Code from it's release to now is totally unacceptable Stern. I will look to other places to make my new pin purchases like JJP and Skit-B unless they address this.

I didn't play my Xmen since the end of December until a few days ago, over a month.

First game I actually enjoyed the code, didn't have any stacking custerf%$ks, of course I couldn't hit crap either as I hadn't played it in so long....

Second game... oh god... I must have had 7 modes stacked... Started every mode on the first ball, beat all but Iceman which was running when I started Magneto and balls kept getting in the way of the ramp. Spent the rest of the game relighting locks and playing the multiball, falling just short of the SJ each time. Was one of the least fun games of pinball I've played on any machine that lasted more than a few minutes...

I agree, seems harsh but whoever coded this game should be fired, or the person who put them on it. It's inexcusable what the original code was, but to put this mess out is uncharted territory of incompetence.

Beautiful game, shots are all fun to hit which is rare in a machine, the code tanks this thing into the dirt.

On top of all that, I sent an email to Stern, Borg and team telling them nicely how horrible the code is. And I never got any reply back. Meanwhile someone else posts here they emailed Stern about some small issue with Avengers or something and the get some nice gift in the mail from Stern. I can't recall the actual details of what it was. But my point is, if I take the time to email a full page of item after item of what's wrong with XM then don't even get a reply saying "we're looking into it, thanks for spending $6,600 on this pin, we will try to fix it."

The number one reason I didn't buy Avengers is the lack of code on xmen and TF.

I backed out of my ACDC BIBLE pre-order because of TF code and quality. Doh!!

What can we do,I bet if everybody got toghter on RGP and PS and aggreed to not buy anymore NIB Stern games mabey we could get some action ,including everybody that ownes the titles or not.I have both games in question and I bought a hulk.
I am in

Same. They made good w/ the Premium, though...when it had a better lower PF window & code update that used the color changing inserts, I bought one.

Metallica is to important to them..... They got what they wanted. They wanted a bunch more people to hurry and get the remaining nib TF now that they did that no need to finish it.

Hey, they got "THE PIN" done by Christmas so that is all that really matters. Guess it goes to show where they put their resources

I think they tried to make good on X-Men and that pretty much has to get updated again since the most recent had so many bugs. But announcing the TF update by Christmas was a bunch of BS and just a ploy to move NIB machines from distributors during the holiday season. I think with Automated selling them for nearly cost now the writing is pretty much on the wall no update is coming. Otherwise they would be waiting for the code update in hopes of moving them at higher prices.

Agree waiting forever for these updates..............

Shocking.

Wrong. It is. I shouldn't be the one saying it, though. I don't even have TF anymore lol.

Well all I know is that if this continues and these guys don't get any Stern love it's something that ultimately just might catch up to them. Let's assume Metallica and Star Trek are the next two Stern machines and that Waison Cheng is the lead software guy for one of them. If this is the case I know for myself there is not a hope that I'd buy that machine NIB, no matter how much I love the theme. Great White sang it best back in 1989 with "Once bitten, twice shy". I'm definitely a shy guy at this point.

I've got nothing against Waison and the Xmen software team, but after a tough experience with Xmen NIB thus far it makes it pretty hard to pony up on Waison a second time. I'm sure if we put up a poll on who would buy Waison Cheng's next pin it would be a pretty tough sell. So hopefully Stern doesn't put TF and Xmen out to pasture without dialing them up to the potential that they have.

That is also my concern and I mentioned before that one thing we know for sure is Stern will keep pumping out the new titles since distributors buy them up in seconds. Look at all the hype Star Trek is getting and that will not be out until the end of the year. Some people mentioned they already have down payments made. At this point they said we would get updates for TF and XM plus AV still needs them, so eventually the list will grow too large as they keep releasing new titles with unfinished code. Stern will have to say screw code updates on some of them and move on. Sadly in the end we can only blame our self since we buy into Stern's LE approach and buy all these games with unproven code. People would rather take a gamble on LE's and lose some money if the game is not a hit (TF,XM) versus having to pay out the ass down the road if it is one (AC/DC,TRON).

Well, that is good news to hear and agree you should not be the one who has to keep us informed. I don't expect Stern to join pinside and make posts because that would get ugly, however with their website, facebook, etc they could be more informative.

And that's what it comes down to. How many people have I heard angrily state they absoultely will not in no way buy a NIB from Stern? A lot. THEN Star Trek/Richie came out and BAM, everyone is in again! How is it going to work with Metallika? Enough Metal heads in here, to take care of the machines without updating them. Sad but true.

Also, remember how many people said after TF they are not buying another Gomez game? Now Hulk LE's are pretty much sold out and bet a lot of the Avenger LE's are spoken for as well.

Ah great point.

No one is waiting for ACDC 1.63

I think you can see by reading this thread that you are in the minority here.

RANT MODE ENGAGE!

I wanted the next update after 1.23 to be five minutes after 1.23 was posted. I want a new code updated every Friday fixing some of the crap that they have broken. Then they can start working on fixing the stuff that has been broken from day 1. Giving them more time between updates is just more time for them to muck it up. I think the break between 1.21 and 1.23 is solid proof of that.

1.23 should have been instantly pulled and 1.22 should have been labeled 1.24 and reupped. Go back and look at the "Yay 1.23 is here" thread. It is amazing that it only took most users 1 game to see what total crap it is. I don't think I even finished my first game.

Then they should start working from there and just forget the bad idea that is POWER PACK! Fix and improve should be the main goals here. Additions should also be looked at. Let's think about additions for a moment. I know 1.2 added Weapon X multiball and shitty Beast. 1.21 added the expanded Xavier mode and the cool Sentinels intro, but think about what has been needlessly CUT from the game. Didn't 1.1 have additional music that has been missing since then? Remember how it used to say the characters names when you hit their shots? Remember seeing character DMD animations when their modes weren't stacked on top of each other? Has there ever been a game that has LOST so much stuff (music, sound and animations) from one update to the next. I really don't see anything (music, sound and animations) being added new to this game. Added back....probably, but nothing NEW.

Drastically changing the entire rule structure of the game wasn't needed after 1.2. They already did that from 1.1 to 1.2 (but that was a good change). I don't know if they pay attention to the feedback here or not, but I have a feeling that they saw suggestions and just said "they aren't happy. Let's throw another rule set at them." instead of listening. NO ONE ASKED FOR HERO STACKING! NO ONE SAID HERO MODES WERE TOO HARD! They asked for hero modes to be linked to villain modes and villains to be softened up by that, and saved progression. Lowering the amount of hits to take down the villain should be a setting...not something you hard code into the game rules. The same goes for qualifying the villain multiballs. DON'T JUST LOWER THE NUMBER OF HITS NEEDED! THAT SHOULD HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AN ADJUSTMENT IN THE SETTING! Why not make those targets active more of the time...the way people asked? The thing that really pisses me off about those targets is they always make a noise when you hit them....even though they are not counting 90% of the time. AND EVEN WORSE is 1 bank lights up when hit and inactive while the other one DOES NOT! How hard can that small bug be to fix? Does anyone really think it would take more than a half hour to fix that bug that has been there since 1.1?

You know I can't expect them to follow every suggestion. Maybe they don't even look on here...I don't know. Even if that is the case....it is still ridiculous that they are so bad at their jobs and that so many users on here have better ideas than they do. You know I would say it's not a case of not being able to code it's just not coming up with good rules and ideas, but really....look at that buggy mess. They can't code either.

Nicely said, and one of the best Metallica songs ever to boot! For me I'm still game to buy Stern NIB machines when you're throwing names like Steve Ritchie and Lyman Sheets around. For sure I just might take a chance on those guys. Right now our Wolvie LE has two legs out the front door and the other two are pretty close behind. I'm looking to shake something up here and I'm thinking a NIB ACDC Premium would be a good replacement for Wolvie.

As for Waison Cheng, I can't say that I'd never ever ever buy another pin that he's the lead guy on, what I do know is that I'm going to wait until that machine is out and we've had a chance to play it before I put my money down (unlike Xmen where I was in like Flynn before it had hit the streets). It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of TF guys took a more cautionary approach with Avengers, but once it came out and the word on it was very positive that can sway you to sign up and buy one.

So I'm still a Stern fan, but my Xmen experience has made me a more cautionary fan.

I was just trying to be nice

100% agree with everything you said, 1.23 came out around 1pm on Xmas Eve and it should have been pulled by 1:01pm. It took everyone about 1 game to figure out what a mess we just received. In the least they could have addressed some of the glaring issues and fixed those ASAP. Instead here we are now in February and nothing.

This morning my 9 year old and I were talking some pinball. In very simple terms he said "Xmen sucks dad, just sell it". Interesting perspective from a 9 year old, even he can figure out that Xmen has some issues. It's funny, I told him we should wait until the next update comes out and maybe it will be good, but his response was "well what if the next update is bad just like the last one?". Didn't really have an answer for him on that one.

All this can be fixed if they would open source their code after it is released. Keep it held down until they finish building and then let the aftermarket take over. Their are some great coders out there that i'm sure would love to take on such machines if they had a chance.

Personally this is what I'd like to see.

Never will happen with a licensed machine. If they go to original themes then you can start to MAYBE talk, but with liability issues it still wouldn't fly. If someone's code started to burn up coils and lamps and such...

Now we went from reasonable expectations to dreaming

Amen! I have been about as patient as I could be and still love the game but actually crossed my mind for the first time ever that maybe I do just want to sell it and move on, been a frustrating ride.

Personally, I wish they would implement an Agile release process for about 6 months post game ship date. Leverage all of us crazy NIB pre-order guys to be the beta testers who will provide feedback on new builds. Here's how it would/could work.

Game ships. Then, every three weeks they would push out a new build addressing bugs or features implemented (beta versions, they've been smoke tested to not fry your machine, but otherwise fairly untested). You could take it or leave it. They provide a webform to submit bug reports or feature requests. People like me would test the code and provide the feedback. This info would go into their story planning sessions for the next engineering release. They continue doing that for about 5 months, then they push out a final release version that has everything fixed, and they move on...

Its hugely advantageous to Stern, because they get a bunch of free beta testers, they focus fix the bugs in the code, then they push a final well tested and release it and no longer develop it and move on to the next project. No source code, none of their IP is exposed, they get literally exponentially more testing for free, and they have well defined development windows for their games. What's not to love?!

Source: Sofware Engineer who leverages Agile Development for Highly Available Software Systems.

-Wes