(Topic ID: 315518)

Xenon pop bumper & switch problems driving me nuts

By jibmums

1 year ago


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  • 18 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by jibmums
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#1 1 year ago

Xenon solenoid probs fixed last week thanks to Quench, now it's on to the next thing.

So here's the particulars:

Right pop bumper fires in solenoid test, but not in play. Its switch doesn't register in switch test. Brown/white "row" wire does not have continuity to A4J2-14 connector.

Right inlane switch also doesn't register in play or during switch test. Same brown/white "row" wire as above, and no continuity again to A4J2-14.

Now here's where I'm baffled: schematics have the same brown/white wire leading to the #2 drop target. I test its continuity to A4J2-14, and I get the beep, so that switch is fine. I check continuity from that drop target switch to the right pop bumper switch, and I get a beep. I check from the pop switch to the right inlane switch, and I get a beep. They're all connected, so how am I not getting continuity from the pop & inlane switch to the board??

All other switches test fine in play and in switch test, and all other solenoids fire both in play and in solenoid test. A4J2 connector has been re-crimped. Right pop bumper has a new capacitor and a new diode (a 1n4004, since I don't have any 1n4148's, but I don't think that's a problem, right?)

One other thing which may or may not be related: when I check the pop bumper switches in switch test, none of the four of them register, BUT the solenoids fire. Same thing with the two slingshots, nothing comes up in switch test but the solenoids fire. I don't know if this is normal Bally behavior so I don't know if this should happen or not.

#2 1 year ago

Look at all the switches on that row. Look for a loose wire. The switches aren't necessarily wired in sequence with the matrix diagram.

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

The switches aren't necessarily wired in sequence with the matrix diagram.

I noticed that. There's supposed to be a tilt switch in the brown/white row along with the #2 drop, right inlane, and right pop switches. Ain't no such wire to any tilt switch, as far as I can see. anyways, first thing I did was check for loose wires, which there weren't any.

#4 1 year ago

Are the new diodes the correct way around?

BTW, for this application, it won't make any difference if you use 1N4001~7 or 1N914/1N4148 diodes

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from pins4u:

Are the new diodes the correct way around?
BTW, for this application, it won't make any difference if you use 1N4001~7 or 1N914/1N4148 diodes

Yes, I made absolutely sure of that.

I wasn't aware that those tiny 4148 diodes were even still available until today. I figured 1n400X were just the standard replacement on switches and solenoids.

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from jibmums:

Ain't no such wire to any tilt switch, as far as I can see.

Search for something like this

IMG_20220519_124932 (resized).jpgIMG_20220519_124932 (resized).jpg
#7 1 year ago
Quoted from jibmums:

One other thing which may or may not be related: when I check the pop bumper switches in switch test, none of the four of them register, BUT the solenoids fire. Same thing with the two slingshots, nothing comes up in switch test but the solenoids fire. I don't know if this is normal Bally behavior so I don't know if this should happen or not.

These Solenoids do fire in switch test, that's okay. Number should appear in display later if you manage to keep your finger on the contact after you've been hit

Screenshot of Page 17 of the manual. And, I remember my own Xenon behaving this way.

IMG_20220519_125551 (resized).jpgIMG_20220519_125551 (resized).jpg
#8 1 year ago
Quoted from Thunfisch:

Search for something like this[quoted image]

Ah, there it is. I was looking on the tilt bob panel in the cab. I check continuity between the brown/white switches themselves, tilt/pop/inlane/drop target, and they all beep. So either all four should beep when I check them to A4J2-14, or none of them should. Doesn't make sense.

I threw in a spare Alltek MPU board this morning, and now the right pop and inlane switch both work. Weird. My first thought is that is was a connector issue, but again, even with a new board, either all four of those switches should work, or none of them should. I'd love to figure out what this problem is, as the Alltek board was slated for another game.

#9 1 year ago

I have had a situation just like this where almost the whole row worked and in the end it was a connector problem. I think the resistance varies enough that the signal for some switches can be read, and then there is one or two that cannot. Once that pin in the connector was redone, everything worked as expected. The move to the different board and everything started working also points to the connector being the issue as the Altek has a brand new header with less resistance than the previous board.

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from Xenon75:

I have had a situation just like this where almost the whole row worked and in the end it was a connector problem. I think the resistance varies enough that the signal for some switches can be read, and then there is one or two that cannot. Once that pin in the connector was redone, everything worked as expected. The move to the different board and everything started working also points to the connector being the issue as the Altek has a brand new header with less resistance than the previous board.

That does make sense, but I was checking continuity from the switch lugs to the the crimped contact inside the connector, not the pins on the board. I just re-crimped this connector with new contacts a month ago. The drop target switch and tilt switch give me a beep, but the pop and inlane switches don't. Yet all four switches beep when tested to each other. should be all or nothing. I initially thought there was a pinched or detached wire, but this just doesn't make sense.

#11 1 year ago

And apparently the old board was not the issue after all, as I just played a few games and the right pop and right inlane switches worked at first, then they both crapped out. Waited a couple hours, powered on and started a game, the pop and inlane both worked, then crapped out again. I checked the playfield tilt and #2 drop target switches, both on the same brown/white row, tilt didn't work but the drop switch did.

#12 1 year ago

Check all the switch lugs where the wires are soldered. Tug 'em and bend them around a little bit. See if you can find a solder point where almost all the conductor wires are broken right at the plastic insulation, maybe hanging just by 1 or 2 wires.

Check your repin. Give that wire a stiff tug and see if it slips out of the pin. Could be good connection cold, but as the game warms up a juncture separates.

The matrix is a daisy chain, in effect making all the switches in a row or column parallel. The diodes are there to isolate the switches from each other. So while one switch may fail, all the rest in the row or column could possibly still work. So, no, it's not an all-or-nothing situation.

Or not...

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from Thunfisch:

Search for something like this[quoted image]

That game is in perpetual tilt...

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

That game is in perpetual tilt...

Some switches like this (slam style) are meant to be NC (Normally Closed). They open upon a sharp hit to the machine.

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

That game is in perpetual tilt...

Yes it is I wanted to be quick in responding, so I postetd the first poto I found showing the under-the-playfield-tilt. It was in a "before"-folder

Quoted from pins4u:

Some switches like this (slam style) are meant to be NC (Normally Closed). They open upon a sharp hit to the machine.

Sureley true in some other cases, but not for Bally Solid State tilt switches.

#16 1 year ago

Grrrrr! Started a game, everything worked. After a few minutes of play, right pop and right inlane stop working again, and playfield tilt switch too, although #2 drop switch still works. Right pop fires fine in solenoid test. This is driving me batty.

And now something new too. One of the pop bumper lamps (I have 47's in them) gets twice as bright for 5-10 minutes, then burns out. I try a new bulb, twice, and same thing happens. Then a third new bulb, and everything's fine with that pop, but another brightens and then burns out the bulb. And it's ONLY the pop bumper lamps, no other GI lamps, or not yet at least. I check under the pf for anything that might be touching the ground braids around the pop mechs, but everything looks fine. It's like this machine has a poltergeist!

#17 1 year ago

The braid stapled to the playfield isn't a ground, it's the lamp B+ power. If that makes its way to contact a switch wire or solder lug, bad things can happen. Try pulling the controlled lamp fuse and playing for a while. Do the swtches still fail? If the pop lamps are GI, pull the GI fuse.

#18 1 year ago

I found it!!! Knew it had to have something to do with the brown/white row, just didn't see it before; curse you, crappy eyesight. A sloppy soldering job by the factory had the upper wire on the drop target switch just floating in the hole, the only thing keeping it there was that clear tubing. Fixed it and playing all night with no switch problems. Woo-hoo!! Now I can pull the Alltek and put the Bally MPU back....might as well repin the .100's first while I have it out.

Still having the pop bumper bulb prob though, in fact the same one burned out again while playing. I still can't see anything wrong down there. Is it possible that, when I re-used the bulb socket, my soldering to reattach it to the power braid was sub-par, and somehow that's creating resistance?

One other issue to note, because why not: when I power on the pin, for a fraction of a second the rear kicker is slightly energized and sometimes kicks, sometimes doesn't. It's not the kick the machine does automatically to remove a ball that may have been left in the hole. I soldered in a new diode last night and that didn't help. I have a DE Simpsons that does something similar, the outlane ball-saver kicker briefly energizes on power up, and it's been doing that for eight years, never been able to figure that one out either.

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