F'n great!!! Love it when a plan comes together....

Matt & Dan
M&M Creations

I got my switch today and am stoked it works so well, also nice you used my pic on the handout. Thanks all.

Glad this is working! Matt and I like to work these switch problems where the original switch design isn't great or a replacement switch isn't available. It stinks when you make a shot and don't get credit for it, or worse the game doesn't know what's going on.

Thanks Quench. Its hard to find 4ohm speakers anymore, at the time we were very concerned with getting the sound reproduced clearly and a 4 ohm was the way to go. It was feared the amp could overdrive the speaker so we used 2 of them. However if you put 2x 4s in parallel that works out to 2 ohms so hence they were wired in series. Today you would probably use an 8 speaker. In parallel that becomes 4 ohms so the only concern in switching the wiring is the quality of the sound and the load on the supply. I may have to reach out to Lance Chantry who is still around. Lance did a lot of the audio work and may know why we varied the wiring from series to parallel. It may be we feared the reliability in pre production but switched over after those fears proved unfounded.

Does anything need to be done to the shooter lane? The groove looks very short.

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Guys, I know I have seen this somewhere, but can't find the links. Believe these are related to the end of tube and left saucer sequence?

The game doesn't clear the out hole on power up.

My Xenon is throwing 2 balls in the shooter lane on game start. There is a drop target reset in between the balls.

If I shoot the tube, the ball stays in the saucer and you can continue with one ball. It swaps the balls normally. It is released at the end of ball 3 like it should.

It plays multi-ball normally.

Ball three stays in the out hole, not sure if this is normal or not.

Switch test is all clear when the balls are out, and all switches activate properly when manually using a ball to test.

Any thoughts or links to previous posts would be helpful. Thanks.

Mine did this as well some time ago. Although all switches under the apron seemed to be okay, cleaning and adjusting them solved the problem, anyhow. If I remember right, there are one microswitch and two leave switches under the apron.

Meaning playing ball three, end of game.

I would check the left saucer switch with ball string in the hole in self test mode. All targets reset and other ball removed from pf.

I had a xenon a while back that was sending 2 balls to the shooter lane. I desoldered the micro switch at the trough and that fixed the issue. I'm not sure what the switch actually does anyway.

I started having that 2 ball issue surface on my resto. I remembered someone saying to just remove that switch.
So I did and the game plays exactly how you want it to without it, so I’m on board with this now. Not one mishap since it’s been removed.

Man I'll give it a shot, but it's weird.

This machine has been rock solid for years, the last 7 months in an arcade. I opened her up to change out EOS switches and this started when I closed up.

Yeah, that's why I can't figure out what is does when the game plays fine w/o it! Weird.

Mine didn't have the 2 ball issue until after I swapped the PF. It could be that the adjustment on this micro is very touchy and has to be in sync with the other trough switches? IDK. I think it's there to help the MPU keep track of the balls, or so I read on old threads. But regardless, my game played fine w/o it.

No I was referring to the micro switch under the apron.

As far as the capacitor, a shorted cap acts as a closed switch that's why it was recommended to snip one side to see if there's any change. Caps fail due to age and these are over 40 years old by now if originals are still in the game. I replace all of them when I do a pf swap.

Xenon must detect 2 balls in order to start a game. When you press the start button it looks for a ball in the outhole and one in the trough. If you disconnect the trough switch the game should not start. It also needs to see both switches closed in order to know multiball is over. When a ball drains and there is no ball in the trough it kicks the ball from the outhole to the hold position in the trough. When the second ball drains to the outhole the game knows multiball is over and will advance to the next turn. I do not see how disconnecting the trough microswitch allows the game to start and play correctly.

Its funny you chimed in Al, i was going to ask you if you knew why the game plays without the switch haha

I feel like that switch isnt needed if the ball trough switch is engaged then the game knows theres either another ball in the outhole or the chamber lock.
If the ball is in the trough and both of the other switches are open the game knows theres a ball in play.
If theres a ball in the trough and the outhole the game knows the turn is over or ready for the start or next player
If theres a ball in the trough and the lock (with capture lit) the game knows the trough needs to move to the shooter lane
If theres a ball in the lock and both the outhole and the trough are open the game knows theres a ball in play
If there are 2 balls in the trough the game throws one in the shooter lane

I dont get what the micro switch is looking for

Those have switches under the pf. I was referring to the micro switch above pf.

Mine also plays without the micro switch connected under the apron, however playing two player and moving from first player to second player is goes all wacky at times and releases both balls.

A little history here. Xenon was originally a single ball game with an underground passage. It sat around in the lab for a couple of years as there was resistance to the idea of a disappearing ball. I asked Lance Chantry, one of my surviving peers, about the game and he told me he came up with the idea for the above playfield tube to get around head designer Norm Clark's objection to the player losing sight of the ball. Even so, IMHO, the game was boring. They added the chase light backbox and Susan Cianni's ground breaking sound effects all in in effort to make the game interesting. Still, it was uncertain if the game would go into production until Williams came out with Black Knight which would forever change the modern pinball landscape.

Bally's response to BK was to immediately put Xenon into production. The lab sample game sat in our engineering lab for a few days and I got to test play it a lot. With all the flash and dash I thought it still dull. I had been after the game designers to bring back multiball for a while but there continued to be a lot of pushback from the gatekeepers. European distributers were against the idea of multiball from a 'Pinball Purity standpoint. But with overwhelming success of BK the situation was ripe for change. One day as the team was breaking for lunch I started a game of Xenon and just for fun, and to prove my point, I added a second ball to the playfield. Greg Kmiec came over and looked over the action and was impressed. He called over some other team members and Xenon multiball was born!

That set off a rush to convert the game to multiball. Although I thought it a simple transition the designers though otherwise. To preserve the integrity of the game they decided to program it so the game would not play if it did not see both pinballs although it was still able to take in coins. This conflict would inevitably lead to countless service calls. A modified ball kicker and trough had to be deployed to handle multiball. Programmers put way to much thought into this and a couple new switches were added. One switch was added above the side saucer to sense a ball coming and kick out a captured ball less 2 balls get stuck there. Another switch was added to the trough so the game would know when multiball was ended. There is yet another switch at the end of the trough. I think that switch is there for the game to detect if a ball was stuck by the plunger.

After Xenon the multiball handling was simplified to use less complicated hardware. However they ignored my idea of having the game play, even if a ball was missing, to reduce service calls. And, as the late Paul Harvey would say, 'now you know, the rest of the story'.

I would love to see an early rendition with the underground passage. For my money Xenon is the most beautiful looking machine ever made. The artwork is leaps and bounds better than modern games. Ciani was brilliant working in the confines of technology at the time. The game play unfortunately leads to random drains and short multiball times. Really good rounds consist of repetitive shots. I would love if someone was brave enough to revisit this theme and modernize it while keeping the integrity of Faris’ art.
Xenon 2.0 is my dream pin.

The game design is near perfect. It's got that simple but not easy setup that many of the Bally's of that time had and give it that 'One more Game' feeling for me. I like Power Play for the same reasons.

Add in the art, lights, and sound and it makes it a favorite SS game in my arcade.

Regarding the 2 ball in the shooter issue above. Looks like the apron microswitch arm was mangled and was not moving freely.

I used a magnet to pull the ball out before lifting the pf the other day and must have caught it.

I re-bent the arm and left the switch connected. Working perfectly now.

Thanks for pointing me in that direction.

I would just love it if someone was brave enough to make any original themed game. We seem to be stuck in an era of non fictional art.

Amen!

Movies and Bands
Movies and Bands
Movies and Bands

Its easier to just pay for the rights and let someone else's work be the theme. Thank god a game like TNA made it to the masses, would love to have one of those snuggled up against my Xenon!

Another Xenon mystery.. When the pinball goes through the Xenon spinner, it's occasionally causing the turn to end or the game to restart. Is that a wiring problem? Tried searching the forums but haven't found related issues!

The spinner and the tilt are on the same column in the switch matrix which means could be bad diodes or capacitors on anything in that column. I’d replace them on the spinner, Credit button, and tilt.
Hope this helps or at least gets more conversation started around the issue.

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I'm intrigued as well.

Check for a shorted diode on drop target #4.

Im some what new to understanding how the matrix works myself, above I suggested the column of strobe 0 because it holds the tilt and the outhole which would lead to turns ending or games resetting. If drop target 4 has an issue what would that do in the way of what was described if the spinner is triggering the problem?

A shorted diode in the switch matrix will cause problems when the switch with the shorted diode is closed, along with two other switches: one in the same row and one in the same column. When you draw a rectangle through the three switches in the matrix diagram, the fourth corner will be the phantom switch closure.

Since Xenon is a multiball game, it's possible the three switch closures could happen with both balls bouncing around, but that would be unlikely. Instead, we need to look at switches that can be held closed. They would be the following:

Drop targets
Side saucer
Trough switch

Of course, stuck (misadjusted) switches could play into it too, so switch test should be run to verify no stuck switches (a shorted diode will not show up as a stuck switch.) We'll assume for the sake of discussion there are no stuck switches.

Looking at the switch matrix diagram, the side saucer doesn't have any of the above switches in the same row or column, so we can rule it out. The trough switch shares the same column as the spinner, but none of the above switches are in the same row. This leaves the drop targets, which are all in the same column. Note DT#4 is also in the same row as the spinner.

Drawing a rectangle using the spinner and DT#4 as two corners and another DT as the third corner you get the following:

DT#3 and credit button
DT#2 and tilt
DT#1 and outhole

Credit button and outhole switch closures match the symptoms described.

Here is what happens when DT#4 has a shorted diode and the spinner is hit:
Strobe 0 is pulsed, the signal passes through the spinner diode and closed switch and is present on return line I4.
With DT#4 down, the signal now passes through the switch and shorted diode, and is now present on Strobe 2.
If any of the other drop targets are down, the signal will pass through the diode and closed switch, appearing on the appropriate I line.
Since the MPU knows it sent the signal down Strobe 0, it will register all switch closures matching Strobe 0 and the corresponding I line.

So if DT#3 and DT#4 are both down and the spinner is hit, the shorted diode will allow the signal to flow the wrong direction through the matrix and appear on I5, causing a new game to be started.

Not sure if your game is tilting or going into slam. A tilt would end the turn but would continue to the next ball or game over if last ball. A slam would reset the entire game. It would help if you further defined the exact issue.

Looking at the matrix as if it were a road map. To slam the game you have to travel from S1 to I7. However the bridge at slam is out so you have to detour. You would then travel up S1 through a stuck coin switch then backwards through a button diode down S2 to the #1 drop target onto I7, and presto! Slam. The problem with this scenario is you need booth a bad button diode and a stuck coin switch. But it could happen.

If your problem is Tilt that's a bit easier to explain. Tilt is at the intersection of S0 and I6. Again lets start at S0. We go up looking for a detour. The number 1 ball release may be closed as a ball is resting there so that puts us on I3, we go backwards through button 3 and down S2 where the #2 drop target is down through that switch to I6 and presto, Tilt! This scenario is easier to complete because in only requires a shorted diodes on the upper button. You may think it's related to the spinner because the spinner is turning while the ball is rolling over the buttons.

If both slam and tilt are happening it points to a bad #3 button diode.

These are great explanations but Im so visual when I learn, I think im losing some of it when I process this. Sounds like its a diode but narrowing it down, I cheat and usually just shotgun a whole row or column but i need to learn this eventually. So using the rectangle method, in my picture this would be confirmed its tilting if we could verify target 2 is down when this happens?
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Or is it a potential problem with any of the 6 switches involved?

That’s correct. If drop targets #2 and #4 are down when you hit the spinner and it tilts, the diode on DT#4 is shorted.

In the rectangle, the problem switch will always be opposite from the phantom switch.

A little refurbishment done on this snowy day. Got some touchup work done on the head and finally mounted back on the cabinet. The neck had been smoothed over with Quikwood and fiberglass resin and repainted last year. Also had dunked the hinges, latches, and other metal head pieces in Evaporust and hit them with the buffer so they were ready to reinstall. Then the backglass frames, which I had filled in all the chips with Quikwood and repainted back in September, back on the head. Just a couple minor areas left to retouch on the original pf before I can repopulate. I love getting to this stage of the refurb where it's so close to being finished, it gets me motivated again.

Funny story, though really annoying at the time: I had repainted a Space Invaders backglass frame like this several years ago with Rustoleum semigloss black, and it came out perfect. When it came time to do Xenon's, I waited for the perfect day - low humidity, 75 degress, perfect weather. I sprayed and was very happy with the two coats of coverage. Next day I checked on it and the paint was still tacky, and too glossy. Obviously Rustoleum spray wouldn't be cured in a day but it's supposed to be dry enough to the touch to handle. I had about half left of the same can I had used on Space Invaders, so I hit it with a third coat of that. Nope, same problem. No idea why, can was fully shaken, ideal temp and humidity. I hung the frame in my attic on a couple of coat hangers and let it cure for three months. It's hard as a rock now, and less glossy, but I can't figure what might have happened. Looks really good now though.

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Looking sweet!

I have had mixed results with rustoleum. It may depend on the primer, how the paint was stored or of the paint was old. I have rustoleum hammer paints that are like 5 years old. Although stored at room temps 65 or warmer, when I used the hammer black on a WMS bezel it came out dark grey. I went over that with semi black and it finally looked black when done.

I have a Xenon in cue to restore. I'm making a new base cabinet. I found a rusto blue that looks like a close match to the cab blue, it's their 2X Oasis blue satin. I'm reluctant to using it as a stencil color because I have had peeling issues in the past.

My mistake in the above post - it was their satin "Canyon Black" that I used, but it dried like a semi-gloss. The frames for Xenon and SI, and likely Vector too, for whatever reason are always less glossy than the rest of the cabinet - I guess Bally painted them differently, or used a different wood for the frames - and the first time I used Canyon Black on my SI it was an exact match. The Xenon frame will just look a little glossier when sitting next to my SI, but whatever, it's so much better than before.

Not an earth shattering announcement, but I will have some new clear tubes for Xenon available soon.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/ramp-o-matic-ramp-thread/page/12#post-6765473

I’m ready to take the next step and do a PF swap with this beautiful CPR gold I got from the awesome @alienpoker. I’ve shopped 3 machines successfully in the last 2 years but this will be my biggest undertaking. I’m also painting the cab. Wish me luck!

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Xenon was my first swap and repaint. In fact I swapped 2 xenons. Before you touch anything, take pics and when you think you took enough take a thousand more.

I buy multi packs of cheap SD cards and dedicate each one to a particular machine and then keep them for future reference and Before and after pics.

Thanks, will do. I’ve poured over the PF swap threads several times and know I’ll make some mistakes but I’ll enjoy the learning experience.

Yes we learn by mistakes but the ultimate mistake would be running a screw or drill bit through the top side. Take every precaution to make sure that doesn't happen. I have done 11 swaps so hit me up if you have any questions.

Much appreciated.

Any help on what goes here? More interested in posts and hardware.
Mike

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Do you have the ramp and tube?

Going by my game which is due for a restore and been sitting for years, the hole by the rebound switch gets a 2 1/16 grey spacer and a 2 11/16 #6 screw. This is for the switch cover mount. The lower hole get a 1.25 inch grey spacer and I guess a 1.75 to a 2 inch #6 screw and this is for the upper ramp mounting L bracket.

Here is a picture of the general posts and rubber ring setup.
Lovef2k has posts length documentation, as noted.
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Thanks!!
Mike