(Topic ID: 314488)

Xenon blowing playfield fuse, what's my next step?

By jibmums

1 year ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 35 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Quench
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

SDB_Flipper_Schem.png
SDB_Q13 (resized).jpg
SDB_Coil_Drive_Voltages_Q13.png
#1 1 year ago

My Xenon is blowing the 1A/SB playfield fuse right at startup. Heard one of the solenoids fire but didn't see which one it was, I did see the fuse blow (playfield was up) right as I turned the machine on. I did a visual inspection under the playfield and didn't see anything touching anything else it shouldn't, but that doesn't mean I didn't miss something. Measured all the coils with an MM and results are all close to spec, the furthest ones off are the ball trough at 14.0 Ω (should be 14.5 Ω) and the big drop bank reset coil at 21.1 Ω (should be 22.0). Everything else is only off by 0.1 - 0.3 Ω so I think they're fine, or not shorted at least.

Not sure what my next step is. Do I pull the solenoid board and check for a shorted transistor? Would that blow the fuse at startup? Could the board be at fault at all?

Do I desolder one lug from each coil, then resolder one at a time until I find the culprit?

Something else I'm not thinking of?

#2 1 year ago
Quoted from jibmums:

My Xenon is blowing the 1A/SB playfield fuse right at startup. Heard one of the solenoids fire but didn't see which one it was, I did see the fuse blow (playfield was up) right as I turned the machine on. I did a visual inspection under the playfield and didn't see anything touching anything else it shouldn't, but that doesn't mean I didn't miss something. Measured all the coils with an MM and results are all close to spec, the furthest ones off are the ball trough at 14.0 Ω (should be 14.5 Ω) and the big drop bank reset coil at 21.1 Ω (should be 22.0). Everything else is only off by 0.1 - 0.3 Ω so I think they're fine, or not shorted at least.
Not sure what my next step is. Do I pull the solenoid board and check for a shorted transistor? Would that blow the fuse at startup? Could the board be at fault at all?
Do I desolder one lug from each coil, then resolder one at a time until I find the culprit?
Something else I'm not thinking of?

My Xenon blew the PF fuse before and it was a shorted diode on the drop target reset coil. Sometimes these just blow from excessive playing. Also I have noticed the fuse clips on these become weak. Loose connection equals extra heat. I always replace them when doing a swap. If you're not getting 0 ohms on any coils the problem is probably something else. You should try to figure out which coil you heard kick on.

#3 1 year ago

Are all the mechanical parts moving freely? No binding?

#4 1 year ago

Not sure what my next step is. Do I pull the solenoid board and check for a shorted transistor? Would that blow the fuse at startup? Could the board be at fault at all?

Do I desolder one lug from each coil, then resolder one at a time until I find the culprit?

Something else I'm not thinking of?

You might have a bad solenoid diode.
1) Unplug the drive connectors.
2) All coils ref. yellow wire.
2a) Unsolder the one driver wire to each coil.
3) test
3a)Does 1amp fuse blow?
No, plug drive connectors back in
4)test
4a) Does 1amp fuse blow?
No,
5) Carefully retouch return wire back to each solenoid
-- one at a time.
5a) Does 1amp fuse blow?
5b) Put game in solenoid test, hold one return wire to each solenoid
5c) Does solenoid fire correctly?
5d) If so, resolder wire back to good solenoid.
6) Repeat process for each coil, till bad solenoid is isolated.
7) I had to do this process on a Bally Eight Ball. One thumper bumper had a bad diode.
7a) Replaced bad diode and repaired bad transistor on driver board.

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

1) Unplug the drive connectors.

Which connector would this be? I'm assuming it's one of those on the SDB but I don't want to guess which one.

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from jibmums:

Which connector would this be? I'm assuming it's one of those on the SDB but I don't want to guess which one.

You have the two connectors on the left of SDB. and the bottom right connector.
The two right side connectors stay in place.
1) once disconnected test cabinet/playfield coils.
1a) if you are good at reading schematics... then
b) do the bottom left connector solenoids, if all good, then, test
c) the top left connector associated solenoids... if all good, then
d) do the bottom right connector... this should have most of the playfield coils.

#7 1 year ago

If a coil fired before the fuse blew, put in a new fuse, lower playfield, then briefly power up to see which coil fires. Then look at the manual to see which transistor on the SDB drives that coil and test the transistor.

https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Bally/Stern#Testing_and_Replacing_Transistors

#8 1 year ago

Sounds like you have a locked on coil and the fuse is blowing before you can identify it. You can try turning on the game for a second and look for the locked up coil but only for a second. Let the game and the fuse rest for a minute before trying again. Eventually you'll spot the locket up coil. If You cant figure out which coil is locking on you'll have to unsolder them all and reconnect one at a time until the fuse blows.

#9 1 year ago

I have a 1A circuit breaker on order from Mouser, i just have to be patient until it arrives later this week. Wonder if I should pull my solenoid driver in the meanwhile and check all the transistors to make sure none of them were blown?

#10 1 year ago

In the meanwhile you can pull the playfield coil plugs off the board and take out a meter. Look for a hard ground on one of the coil outputs. Do you have replacement transistors? Probably a good idea to order a SD repair kit from Big Daddy while your at it to be ready if you identify a shorted transistor or chip.

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from BigAl56:

In the meanwhile you can pull the playfield coil plugs off the board and take out a meter. Look for a hard ground on one of the coil outputs.

Not sure exactly what that means or how to do that. Explain please?

I have a few replacement TIP102's, I think those are okay for Bally SDB use, right? Just pulled the SDB and checked all the transistors, they're all within spec, so that's one less worry at least. I checked all my coil diodes last night; yes, without clipping one end, but it was late and I was just making busy work. They all measured the same except for the left side hole kicker, which I also noticed one of the leads was blackened. Could be coincidence but that's the first one I'll tackle when my circuit breaker arrives. I think this was the solenoid that fired when the fuse blew, there's a spring on an arm that sounds just like the one that fired on power-up.

Once I get Xenon up and running, the plan is to order a slew of new caps and parts to rebuild a whole bunch of boards on a whole bunch of games.

#12 1 year ago

Got my circuit breaker today, here's where I'm at now:

- Turned the machine on and the left hole kicker solenoid fired immediately. Clipped that diode and soldered in a new 1N4004, figuring that was the problem.

- Turned on machine and it still fires immediately. Disconnected the power lug from left hole kicker.

- Turn on machine with playfield still up and I notice left slingshot and right and rear pop bumpers are also firing on startup.

I check the yellow wiring's daisy chaining, and the solenoid matrix in the manual, and it doesn't make sense that these four solenoids would be firing together. On a whim, I pull an SDB from another Bally head and install it. Power on, and it doesn't blow the fuse! Go into coil test, and everything fires as it should! Put a couple of balls into the game, and it starts up and plays! So it looks like it was a board problem after all, but I had checked all the transistors and got 0.5v - 0.54v from each one, which is what they should measure. I'd like to fix this board as it's original to the machine, but not sure what to look for now.

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from jibmums:

Not sure exactly what that means or how to do that. Explain please?

BigAl56 and vec-tor are referring to the same thing. Disconnect the connectors from the solenoid driver board (SDB) that run to the playfield coils to prevent the coils from activating at power up. These connectors are J1 (upper left of the SDB), J2 (lower left of the SDB) and J5 (right bottom of the SDB).

The four coils you've noticed that locked on are controlled by the following SDB driver transistors:
Q9 - Right Pop Bumper
Q10 - Middle Pop Bumper
Q11 - Left Slingshot
Q13 - Left side Saucer

These driver transistors are all pre-driven by the U3 transistor array chip on the SDB.
You have to determine if the driver transistors are shorted or the U3 transistor array is faulty.
Disconnect J1, J2 and J5 from the SDB then power up.
Below are good readings for the U3/Q13 circuit. Note you will not get the 43V on the metal tab of Q13 since the coil is disconnected but the other voltage values you measure will tell more of the story particularly if U3 pin 11 measures a few volts. You're only concerned with the "off" voltage readings.

SDB_Coil_Drive_Voltages_Q13.pngSDB_Coil_Drive_Voltages_Q13.png

Set your multi-meter to DC voltage. If your multi-meter isn't auto-ranging set it to the 20V scale.
In most cases when you're measuring voltage you hookup the black meter probe to ground. You can use the "GND" test point on the solenoid driver board but I prefer to sit the probe tip tightly under the ground braid running along the bottom of the head to free up a hand.
With the red meter probe, touch the points on the solenoid driver board referenced in the chart above. Note down the voltage readings and come back to us.

SDB_Q13 (resized).jpgSDB_Q13 (resized).jpg

#14 1 year ago

Okay, I took two sets of measurements, one with the black lead on the backbox ground braid and one on the SDB ground loop. The reading are slightly different (which I know happens) but two are RADICALLY different (marked these with *). Here are the readings:

BRAID / LOOP
0.46 / 308.0* U3 pin 1
4.25 / 4.1 U3 pin 8
0.45 / 300.0* U3 pin 9
0.97 / 0.81 U3 pin 11
2.18 / 2.03 U3 pin 12
0.99 / 0.85 U3 pin 16

1.48 / 1.32 Diode CR13 banded side
2.2 / 2.04 Diode CR13 non-banded side

0.74 / 0.59 Transistor Q13

#15 1 year ago

Heh, I only marked pins 1, 8, 9, 16 on U3 so you could see how the chip pins are numbers not expecting you to take readings on them. But good you did.
So the voltage reading you got on pin 12 is bad related to the side saucer, and the voltage on pin 8 is also bad regarding the middle pop bumper. These are U3 faults.

If you feel like more measuring:
pins 2 and 3 of U3, relate to the right pop bumper
pins 4 and 6 of U3, relate to the left slingshot
pins 7 and 8 of U3, relate to the middle pop bumper (pin 8 already measured far out of spec so is bad)

These will tell us if U3 is responsible for causing the other said coils to lockon at powerup.

These are the readings you should normally get on U3 when the momentary coils are inactive:

Pins 3, 6, 8, 10, 11, 13, 16 should all read around 0.9 volts.
Pins 2, 4, 7, 9, 12, 14, 1 should all read around 0.3 volts.

#16 1 year ago

Here are the results, again I measured with both braid / loop:

Pin 2 = 2.2 / 2.0
Pin 3 = 2.9 / 2.8
Pin 4 = 2.2 / 2.0
Pin 6 = 4.2 / 4.1
Pin 7 = 2.2 / 2.0
Pin 8 = 4.2 / 4.1

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from jibmums:

Here are the results, again I measured with both braid / loop:

The results are out of spec causing those coils to lock on. Pins 3, 6 and 8 are sort of inputs that must never go above 0.9 volts. Your readings exceed it and thus U3 is a goner.

It's a CA3081 transistor array, basically it has seven simple transistors inside it. The schematic shows them as separate transistors.
Order a replacement and swap it.

#18 1 year ago

Will do. Another chance for me to use my Hakko desoldering gun! Going to replace the two big caps while I'm at it. Thanks for the help!

Any idea why I got those two wildly inaccurate 300V readings when I used the ground loop instead of the braid? Is this something I should be concerned about?

#19 1 year ago
Quoted from jibmums:

Any idea why I got those two wildly inaccurate 300V readings when I used the ground loop instead of the braid? Is this something I should be concerned about?

What's the chance the little 'm' came on the meter display indicating the reading was actually 300mV (milli-Volts)?

#20 1 year ago

Side Note:
Bally and Stern owners are entering a new area of the RCA CA3081 chips failing.
I got stuck trying to trouble shoot a Stern game from this area...
Long story short, a second coil fried... traced it back to one CA3081.

#21 1 year ago

https://nvram.weebly.com/transistors.html

Andrew sells replacement boards to be able to use discrete transistors if you can't get 3081's. Great plains electronics shows the 3081 out of stock but that might be my browser.

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

What's the chance the little 'm' came on the meter display indicating the reading was actually 300mV (milli-Volts)?

Just checked, that chance would be 100%. At least a couple of the pins measured what they should have!

Should I bother adding a socket to the board first? Would this be the correct one?
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/DIP16

Quoted from slochar:

Great plains electronics shows the 3081 out of stock but that might be my browser.

That was the first place I checked also, and he's out, and out of the two big capacitors too. I'll just get them at Marco.

#23 1 year ago
Quoted from jibmums:

Should I bother adding a socket to the board first? Would this be the correct one?

That Marco socket is suitable, no harm in adding one.

Quoted from vec-tor:

Bally and Stern owners are entering a new area of the RCA CA3081 chips failing.

The typical failure is the base of an internal transistor goes open circuit. Three of which happened here.

#24 1 year ago

Okay, here's where I'm at now:

New CA3081 chip and socket installed in U3 (thank you Hakko FR-301). Three ground mods done to back of board, cold solder joints reflowed, and C23 cap replaced. I was super careful when soldering everything in, and even checked all my work for continuity to make sure I didn't create any solder bridges between neighboring joints. All good, or so I supposed.

Right pop, middle pop, left slingshot, and left hole kicker no longer fire on power up. However, now the lower pop bumper fires on power up. I didn't leave the machine on long enough to pop the circuit breaker, though I'm sure it would have. When I disconnect wire J5/13 and power on, everything else works fine, machine powers up normally, everything else fires in solenoid test, and I can even start up a game. Just no lower pop bumper.

I check transistor Q12 (lower pop pumper) and get .72v

I check resistor CR12 and get 1.46v (banded side) and 2.2v (non-banded side).

Was REALLY hoping that chip was gonna be the end of it!

#25 1 year ago
Quoted from jibmums:

Was REALLY hoping that chip was gonna be the end of it!

Carefully measure the voltages on pins 9 and 10 of U3 and report back. There's no solder whisker shorts on those socket pins?

#26 1 year ago

I was very careful in my soldering, and I checked each set of adjoining joints for continuity (there was none), not sure what else to look for. I did order three CA3018's, should I try a different one?

Here are the measurements:

Pin 9: 2.18V

Pin 10: -305mV. This was strange, the MM took forever to work its way up to -305mV, then it backed down to -295, then it kinda varied between -295 to -310. Yes, those are all minus signs. What the heck??

#27 1 year ago
Quoted from jibmums:

Pin 10: -305mV.

This suggests there might be an open circuit to pin 10. Possible trace damage at the pad connecting to the socket pin.
Pin 10 is connected to one leg of resistor R69 - I don't have a board in front of me to check which leg but measure if you have zero ohms continuity from pin 10 to either R69 leg.

#28 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

This suggests there might be an open circuit to pin 10. Possible trace damage at the pad connecting to the socket pin.
Pin 10 is connected to one leg of resistor R69 - I don't have a board in front of me to check which leg but measure if you have zero ohms continuity from pin 10 to either R69 leg.

I think I see the problem - when I put the MM lead against R69, one of the legs was broken! I don't happen to have one of those resistors handy, but I'll figure out some way to reattach it. Luckily it wasn't broken at the edge of the ceramic part.

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from jibmums:

when I put the MM lead against R69, one of the legs was broken! I don't happen to have one of those resistors handy, but I'll figure out some way to reattach it.

If you don't have any luck, there's a somewhat unused one that connects to test point TP7 which you can borrow without any ill effect. It's the one at R72.

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

If you don't have any luck, there's a somewhat unused one that connects to test point TP7 which you can borrow without any ill effect. It's the one at R72.

I think I'm reading my schematics correctly, just want to make sure: SDB resistors R57 through R71 are all 1.2k Ω resistors, correct? Looking at a defunct Bally MPU board I have, I see resistors R90 through R96 are the same brown/red/red/brown stripe, and the schematics also peg them at 1.2 Ω, so I should be able to harvest one of those, right?

#31 1 year ago

Went ahead and swapped in the resistor from the bad MPU. Measured pins 9 and 10, and got 390mV for 9 and 1.02 for 10, so that's good so far.....

Powered up and no lock ons! Went into solenoid test and as far as I can tell, everything fires! Time to clean up and try a game.....

#32 1 year ago

.....aaaaand we're good! First time I've been able to play a game since I brought Xenon home almost a year ago. Thanks Quench, you're a life saver, and thanks to everyone else too. Now I can concentrate on dialing in the game.

Two last questions:

How did you know what values the pins on U3 were supposed to read? Is that info in the schematic somewhere, or just from experience?

When I checked the 1.2k resistor, I initially thought it was bad because it measured 481 Ω. Then I checked the other identical resistors and they also measured 480-485 Ω. Shouldn't they measure around 1.2k Ω ?

#33 1 year ago
Quoted from jibmums:

SDB resistors R57 through R71 are all 1.2k Ω resistors, correct?

Correct.

Quoted from jibmums:

How do you know what values the pins on U3 were supposed to read? Is that info in the schematic somewhere, or just from experience?

I measured them long ago when I made that table above helping someone with a flipper relay issue. But the voltages can be somewhat deduced when you understand how the components work.

Diodes will generally have between 0.6 - 0.8 volts drop across them when conducting. Same for the voltage across "base" and "emitter" pins on a simple bipolar transistor when used in switching circuits like this - in this case they go as high as 0.9 volts on U3.

The output driver transistors in these circuits is actually a "darlington" transistor which contains two internal transistors that result in high current gain amplification. The Bally schematics do not properly indicate these transistors - what's circled in red below is what the driver transistor actually contains inside it. Because there are two internal transistors in series, the max base to emitter voltage doubles to around 1.2 - 1.4 volts when it needs to be switched on hard.
When you understand these diode/transistor voltage drops, you can then map out the expected voltages in the circuit.
When the transistor is turned on hard the voltage between collector and emitter drops to around 0.3 volts as it's "switched on". when you take away the voltage from the base to emitter, the collector essentially becomes an open circuit as the transistor switches off.

SDB_Flipper_Schem.pngSDB_Flipper_Schem.png

Quoted from jibmums:

When I checked the 1.2k resistor, I initially thought it was bad because it measured around 480 Ω. Then I checked the other identical resistors and they also measured 480-485 Ω. Shouldn't they measure around 1.2k Ω ?

It's not always going to be the case that you measure a resistor in circuit and it reads its true value. This is because circuitry around the resistor has its own resistance in parallel which reduces the measurement.
So if you measure a resistor and it's lower than marked it's likely (not always) surrounding circuitry is affecting the reading. However if you read a resistor and it measures higher than marked, then you need to look more seriously at the resistor as being open circuit/out of spec.
When resistors go out of spec there is usually signs of thermal fatigue (looking burnt).

#34 1 year ago

That is a lot to wrap my brain around.

Quoted from Quench:

It's not always going to be the case that you measure a resistor in circuit and it reads its true value. This is because circuitry around the resistor has its own resistance in parallel which reduces the measurement.
So if you measure a resistor and it's lower than marked it's likely (not always) surrounding circuitry is affecting the reading. However if you read a resistor and it measures higher than marked, then you need to look more seriously at the resistor as being open circuit/out of spec.
When resistors go out of spec there is usually signs of thermal fatigue (looking burnt).

I measured a good half dozen of them on the SDB, at least a dozen on that MPU, and I also measured the broken one I pulled off the SBD and the bunch that I pulled off the MPU for spares, so those were all off-board, and every one of them was 480-485 Ω. So that's weird.

Is the 1.02v on pin 10 something I should keep an eye on for future chip failure since it's higher than 0.9v, or is that not really too much higher?

#35 1 year ago
Quoted from jibmums:

so those were all off-board, and every one of them was 480-485 Ω

If you're getting 480 Ω with the resistor isolated on the bench then your multi-meter is likely faulty. Note when measuring resistors make sure your fingers aren't touching the meter probes; your body will affect the resistance reading more so with higher value resistors and how moist (conductive) your fingers are.

Quoted from jibmums:

Is the 1.02v on pin 10 something I should keep an eye on for future chip failure since it's higher than 0.9v, or is that not really too much higher?

It's a bit high, maybe the black meter lead didn't have good connectivity on the ground point.

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
$ 9.00
Cabinet Parts
Third Coast Pinball
 
$ 40.00
Lighting - Led
NorthStar Mods
 
$ 15.00
Hardware
Volcano Pinball
 
From: $ 10.00
Electronics
Third Coast Pinball
 
$ 82.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 69.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Pimp
 
$ 90.00
$ 25.00
Electronics
Yorktown Arcade Supply
 
$ 25.00
Cabinet Parts
Volcano Pinball
 
$ 179.00
Cabinet - Other
Pinball Pimp
 
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Newcastle, OK
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Jeffersonville, IN
$ 5.00
Hardware
Volcano Pinball
 
1,800
Machine - For Sale
Cape Coral, FL
$ 18.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 40.00
Lighting - Led
NorthStar Mods
 
$ 15.00
Hardware
Volcano Pinball
 
$ 69.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Pimp
 

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/xenon-blowing-playfield-fuse-what-s-my-next-step?hl=bigal56 and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.