North Wales, PA
I couldn't agree more pmWolf, XMEN is one of Borgs masterpieces and it finally got a nice software update to match the wonderful layout and music. Waison came through! XMEN and TRON are games that will never leave my collection.
(Topic ID: 16030)
Linked Games
X-Men (LE)
Stern, 2012-
X-Men (Pro)
Stern, 2012
Topic Gallery
Quoted from pmWolf:Sadly enough, people who had never even seen nor played the game started believing all the negativity. ("Hey, nobody has anything nice to say about this game...it must suck!")
Your entire post is one of the most comprehensive reviews/explanations of XMEN ever written. Well said sir.
I was talking to a fellow pinhead who owns close to one hundred games, when I told him I was trading my ACDC back for my old XMENLE he said. "Isn't XMENLE a bad game though?" You could tell he had not played it by the way he stated the question. Don't get me wrong though I thing ACDC is a great game too, I just prefer XMENLE. XMENLE can be one of the most frustrating games ever made at times. Its much harder layout wise than most pins, but that is one of the reasons I love it.
Brisbane
It's not just xmen that got pulled down, avengers got the same bad rap. To each his own, but owning both for some time now, I think they are both great games for many of the same reasons...dots, sound, difficulty, etc. people rag on avengers quality, but I have about 1000 games on mine and never had anything go wrong.
Quoted from pmWolf:It gets better with every revision,
Nice post...but I have to stop you right there. Did you NOT play the Power Crap update?
Saying that a game gets better with each update is usually a no brainier. The complaints are usually that the updates just don't come soon enough (if ever). With X-Men is was a whole different case. That long awaited and hyped update was a big step in the wrong direction. That was something, as far as I know, had never happened with a pinball machine before. Plus it took all of 5 minutes to see that update was completely broken...yet it took them months to fix it.
As is, I think X-Men is a fine game, but there is no one to blame for it's bad reputation except for Stern. I got beat up on before the game was released by "puppies and rainbow hippies" that refused to make even the slightest criticism of the game. I would point out concerns and they would tell me I was being a hater and it was all going to be great. A month after the game is released and they sell theirs off. I have given the game that chance that it deserves. I'm still not going to proclaim my love for it because I know if my Wolverine breaks or I even have to remount him (which...that ground off elbow is starting to snag balls) ...it will probably be enough for me to sell the game off.
It's sad that, it making it in the "keeper" category for me, largely depends on if someone else makes a Wolverine solution that fixes a design flaw that should have never been a factor in the first place.
The code also has known bugs, that I'm afraid, are there forever...as I haven't heard any updates since the last bang-bang back to back updates.
A poorly thought out game, in both design and software...yet it has vastly improved and is fun despite all of that. That's the way I would sum up the game.
Quoted from DugFreez:Nice post...but I have to stop you right there. Did you NOT play the Power Crap update?
Saying that a game gets better with each update is usually a no brainier. The complaints are usually that the updates just don't come soon enough (if ever). With X-Men is was a whole different case. That long awaited and hyped update was a big step in the wrong direction. That was something, as far as I know, had never happened with a pinball machine before. Plus it took all of 5 minutes to see that update was completely broken...yet it took them months to fix it.
As is, I think X-Men is a fine game, but there is no one to blame for it's bad reputation except for Stern. I got beat up on before the game was released by "puppies and rainbow hippies" that refused to make even the slightest criticism of the game. I would point out concerns and they would tell me I was being a hater and it was all going to be great. A month after the game is released and they sell theirs off. I have given the game that chance that it deserves. I'm still not going to proclaim my love for it because I know if my Wolverine breaks or I even have to remount him (which...that ground off elbow is starting to snag balls) ...it will probably be enough for me to sell the game off.
It's sad that, it making it in the "keeper" category for me, largely depends on if someone else makes a Wolverine solution that fixes a design flaw that should have never been a factor in the first place.
The code also has known bugs, that I'm afraid, are there forever...as I haven't heard any updates since the last bang-bang back to back updates.
A poorly thought out game, in both design and software...yet it has vastly improved and is fun despite all of that. That's the way I would sum up the game.
Dug,
Hopefully TMezel will come through with some type of mount for Wolverine. I sent him the whole righ that sits inside Wolverine and will wait to see what he comes up with. Whatever it is, it has to be more solid than bashing a hollow plastic figure with a steel ball. In the meantime, I am going to try a Newton Ball on mine to see if I can come up with some kind of mount.
Dug you are right on, I like the game just don't *love* it and mainly because some shots are too tight and the code update while good is not outstanding needs a good few tweaks but that will never happen, too bad we can't crack the code and add bit or fix some bugs.
Quoted from rai:Dug you are right on, I like the game just don't *love* it and mainly because some shots are too tight and the code update while good is not outstanding needs a good few tweaks but that will never happen, too bad we can't crack the code and add bit or fix some bugs.
I feel the opposite. I love the code, and I like the tight shots. I don't care much for games that I can hit a certain ramp shot over and over with little failure. If someone had not taken the glass off the game and spent a lot of time figuring out every detail of the game, I and most others would have little clue of any "bugs". Every pin I have ever owned has had a few "bugs" in the software. I am not making excuses, its just the reality of most pins.
Quoted from PEN:I feel the opposite. I love the code, and I like the tight shots. I don't care much for games that I can hit a certain ramp shot over and over with little failure. If someone had not taken the glass off the game and spent a lot of time figuring out every detail of the game, I and most others would have little clue of any "bugs". Every pin I have ever owned has had a few "bugs" in the software. I am not making excuses, its just the reality of most pins.
I agree. I sold my TOM to buy this game because I liked the lay out and how the ball moved around before it had solid code. It was a gamble but I new TOM was not going to get better over time. (Easy and boring lay out in my opinion. Great game in large collection. Which I do not have.) As far as bugs? I can't think of any and I play almost every day. Not saying they are not their.
I love the different modes and enjoy the tight shots. Furthermore I have not had any problems with my Wolverine bash toy. I will defiantly report a problem if and when it happens. This game is underrated IMHO.
Quoted from PinDescabarian:I agree. I sold my TOM to buy this game because I liked the lay out and how the ball moved around before it had solid code. It was a gamble but I new TOM was not going to get better over time. (Easy and boring lay out in my opinion. Great game in large collection. Which I do not have.) As far as bugs? I can't think of any and I play almost every day. Not saying they are not their.
I love the different modes and enjoy the tight shots. Furthermore I have not had any problems with my Wolverine bash toy. I will defiantly report a problem if and when it happens. This game is underrated IMHO.
Sold my TOM for the same reason.
Quoted from PEN:I feel the opposite. I love the code, and I like the tight shots. I don't care much for games that I can hit a certain ramp shot over and over with little failure. If someone had not taken the glass off the game and spent a lot of time figuring out every detail of the game, I and most others would have little clue of any "bugs". Every pin I have ever owned has had a few "bugs" in the software. I am not making excuses, its just the reality of most pins.
Agreed current code for XM is awesome! Very deep rule set that goes perfectly with the theme and the layout really appeals to me as well. Tough to master but when/if you do the game is fast n fun. I love this pin one of my favorites without question.
Edmonton, AB
I know this will likely not happen, but with the rumours / teasers out for the NEXT Xmen movie in 2 years, it would be so cool to put in an Apocalypse mode in Xmen.
No need to change any other element of the game. Just an extra mode which operates without stacking anything else, and only starts when no modes are operational.
Because DP seems so hard to get to, I thought of having Apocalypse as a mode if you START all villains, and FINISH both Gambit and Nightcrawler (maybe Magneto too). Lights in the scoop then start to strobe and hit the scoop to start. Mode starts with Apocalypse taunting you. DMD shows the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Single ball mode. Have to hit 4 shots twice to beat them (Beast, Xavier, Cyclops and Phoenix). Each of their shots is flashing (both the white hero insert and the red villain one). Extinguished when hit. Once all Horsemen are defeated, stage 2 has you fight Apocalypse. For this mode, you have to "hit" Apocalypse 4 times, but the mode is timed, and his shot is a roving shot (think Flynn in Tron) using the red inserts. Maybe the first two hits give you 2 shots to hit, last two have only 2 lit roving shot. And the speed of the roving increases with each shot. And you only have 1 minute to beat level 2.
You'd need a couple added DMD screens, a new music tune (use the old unused one already in the older version of the game) and some menacing Apocalypse callouts (and maybe some horse sounds for level one). But I don't think it would be that hard to add.
It would be a nice bonus mode, give you added reason to play the villains, and finish Gambit and NC.
One can hope can't he?
Quoted from Apollyon:I know this will likely not happen, but with the rumours / teasers out for the NEXT Xmen movie in 2 years, it would be so cool to put in an Apocalypse mode in Xmen.
No need to change any other element of the game. Just an extra mode which operates without stacking anything else, and only starts when no modes are operational.
Because DP seems so hard to get to, I thought of having Apocalypse as a mode if you START all villains, and FINISH both Gambit and Nightcrawler (maybe Magneto too). Lights in the scoop then start to strobe and hit the scoop to start. Mode starts with Apocalypse taunting you. DMD shows the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Single ball mode. Have to hit 4 shots twice to beat them (Beast, Xavier, Cyclops and Phoenix). Each of their shots is flashing (both the white hero insert and the red villain one). Extinguished when hit. Once all Horsemen are defeated, stage 2 has you fight Apocalypse. For this mode, you have to "hit" Apocalypse 4 times, but the mode is timed, and his shot is a roving shot (think Flynn in Tron) using the red inserts. Maybe the first two hits give you 2 shots to hit, last two have only 2 lit roving shot. And the speed of the roving increases with each shot. And you only have 1 minute to beat level 2.
You'd need a couple added DMD screens, a new music tune (use the old unused one already in the older version of the game) and some menacing Apocalypse callouts (and maybe some horse sounds for level one). But I don't think it would be that hard to add.
It would be a nice bonus mode, give you added reason to play the villains, and finish Gambit and NC.
One can hope can't he?
As things stand, there is no final mode so if you do get to DP and DR modes, the game is essentially over. At the very least, you cannot start any Villians again or get to the Danger Room again.
Quoted from judremy:As things stand, there is no final mode so if you do get to DP and DR modes, the game is essentially over. At the very least, you cannot start any Villians again or get to the Danger Room again.
I want a kill screen animation.Like, at the end of pac-man. 
X-men has come around to be a great game but I also have enjoyed it very much since acquiring it with early code. I think they are pretty much done with code but how awesome would it be for some secret modes with these guys added in???
Post edited by centerflank: added stuff
Quoted from centerflank:X-men has come around to be a great game but I also have enjoyed it very much since acquiring it with early code. I think they are pretty much done with code but how awesome would it be for some secret modes with these guys added in???
Post edited by centerflank: added stuff
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I'm pretty sure at one point Sinister was planned on being in. I saw a video that showed some Mr. Sinister DMD animations and I also suspect a couple of that callouts that made it into the firmware are Sinister. He is also pictured on the side of the Mags cabinet....as far as I know he's the only character on any of the cabinets that doesn't make an appearance in the game.
On a movie side note. I would much rather see a Mr. Sinister X-Men movie than an Apocalypse based one. It wouldn't be as grand or as massive scale as Apocalypse, but it would be a more personal villain story and could be done well with a more focused story.
It would also be cool if Stern incorporated the Marauders as a secret villain mode somewhere in the game (who are tasked out by Mr. Sinister). I've checked the white dry-erase board during the Stern X-men video and noticed there were a bunch of characters listed (pretty sure William Stryker is on there).
Side note:It was already stated by Bryan Singer that the next movie will incorporate the 80's era and what better issue to take from then the setting of Uncanny X-men 221-222 to start the movie and then introduce Apocalypse 3/4 within the movie. 221 is also the 1st appearance of Mr. Sinister and takes place in the late 80's in SF.
222.jpg
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-
****Movie Spoiler****
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-
-Did anyone question what time period Wolverine woke up in at the end of the "Days of Future Past"? Was it present (2014) or Future (2023)? Only because Wolverine has grey streaks in his hair when he wakes up and at the same time everyone from the team hasn't aged?
Quoted from pmWolf:I don't know if Stern "pooped their pants" with this game. I think there were several people here that impacted how the game is viewed today. (Or...I guess you'd say that they were the ones that pooped in Stern's pants).
Even from the very beginning, X-Men was a great game. However, many people chose NOT to focus on the kickass aspects of the game, and instead took time to whine about a bunch of minuscule, largely irrelevant details. Instead of focusing on the tremendous DMD animations, and spectacular music, they'd whine about a voice they didn't like. Instead of talking about some very cool magnet tricks and super-deep gameplay, they'd complain about some missing feature in a wizard mode that 99.9% of humanity would never be able to reach anyhow.
After a while, those with positive things to say were just drowned out...and the detractors drove the narrative from there. Hobbyists were bombarded with: "X-Men is a total crap game", and tired posts like "$10k by Christmas" became the sneering response to just about everything. The reputation of the game was damaged by nit-picking, and by people that are unable to find anything pleasant to say about anything in the world around them.
Sadly enough, people who had never even seen nor played the game started believing all the negativity. ("Hey, nobody has anything nice to say about this game...it must suck!")
It's sad, because X-Men really is a great game. It gets better with every revision, but at its heart, it has never been BAD at all. It is quite a bit better than some of the Stern games that are a lot more popular.
We live in a world where it is just too easy to tear things down. It is much easier to spew negativity...and since there is an army of people willing to do the same, there is instant gratification when someone complains. Nobody focuses on the positives, because it is less rewarding in the long run. Being hyper-critical is just a better way to get attention.
It's been a while since I had a chance to really put some time on my X-Men machine. I'm telling you, it's an impressive piece of work. I really appreciate the full DMD show, and am so glad that it wasn't one of those 33% - 66% split DMD's. The animations are just incredible...particularly when you beat a villain like Juggernaut or Magneto...or get an Extra Ball or Replay. The music is incredibly varied, and fantastically composed. David Thiel did a marvelous job.
I'm very happy that I'm an owner of this game.
Pete
I concur sir, great game, great code, very happy to have it.
Haters be trippin' this is a game for the ages.
I have the pro, blinged up with LED's and a shaker & I love playing it.
If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up.
Quoted from PEN:» YouTube video
And now I can die happy, having been quoted on pinside 
1 week later
I've had my X-Men since release and I've also been a big user of Pinball Browser since it was released. I THOUGHT I had been through the X-Men 1.1 code with Pinball Browser before, but I just tried it and it kept crashing the program when I would go into the sound section.
I was afraid that my original 1.1 code had become corrupt and it strangely has a date modified date of 12/21/2009 on the bin file. So I decided to load it up on a USB drive and try flashing it to my game. The update worked fine. I then backed it up and took it back to my PC. The new backup has the same results in Pinball Browser...it would crash if I attempted to play any sounds and the date modified (even on the new backup from the game) was still 12/21/2009.
Anyway...I finally decided that I must have only opened up other early versions of the X-Men in Pinball Browser before. I was quite surprised at how much DMD info was in version 1.1 that wasn't implemented in the game at the time. All the Dark Phoenix and Danger Room DMD animations are there. The intro to Weapon X multiball was there, but no hall running and slashing animations.
There was also a lot of the animations that were used then that have since been cut (but are still in the current software version). I did run into 2 or 3 animations that were never used and later cut from later software updates. It makes me wonder if they were tossing around other ideas for another wizard mode.
Playing on the old code....it did have some nice touches that were lost. Don't get me wrong...the newer codes are much better. It's just a shame that a lot of small things I enjoyed and had forgot about are gone. The obvious ones are all of the separate character callouts and DMD animations when you would first hit their shots. I don't have any idea why they had to pull them. I would still like the animation and call out when hitting each shot for the first time. Kind of like an introduction to each shot / character. The opening music was also nice and there is no reason they couldn't have kept it in place to randomly play in certain games.
I also like the completed villains still showing up on the villain select screen with the "Completed" logo over top of them. The one thing I forgot about that I really liked was getting the mystery award at the scoop. It use to quickly cycle through the awards with some cool sounds effects before the Blackbird taking off animations.
Anyway...I just wanted to share some thought on my walk down memory lane. If anyone has 1.1 and can open it with Pinball Browser and browse the sound files...please let me know via PM. ALSO....if anyone has version 1.0 of X-Men LE backed up send me a PM. I would be happy to pay you for your trouble and shipping cost to get it to me.
First software.jpgQuoted from pmWolf:I don't know if Stern "pooped their pants" with this game. I think there were several people here that impacted how the game is viewed today. (Or...I guess you'd say that they were the ones that pooped in Stern's pants).
Even from the very beginning, X-Men was a great game. However, many people chose NOT to focus on the kickass aspects of the game, and instead took time to whine about a bunch of minuscule, largely irrelevant details. Instead of focusing on the tremendous DMD animations, and spectacular music, they'd whine about a voice they didn't like. Instead of talking about some very cool magnet tricks and super-deep gameplay, they'd complain about some missing feature in a wizard mode that 99.9% of humanity would never be able to reach anyhow.
After a while, those with positive things to say were just drowned out...and the detractors drove the narrative from there. Hobbyists were bombarded with: "X-Men is a total crap game", and tired posts like "$10k by Christmas" became the sneering response to just about everything. The reputation of the game was damaged by nit-picking, and by people that are unable to find anything pleasant to say about anything in the world around them.
Sadly enough, people who had never even seen nor played the game started believing all the negativity. ("Hey, nobody has anything nice to say about this game...it must suck!")
It's sad, because X-Men really is a great game. It gets better with every revision, but at its heart, it has never been BAD at all. It is quite a bit better than some of the Stern games that are a lot more popular.
We live in a world where it is just too easy to tear things down. It is much easier to spew negativity...and since there is an army of people willing to do the same, there is instant gratification when someone complains. Nobody focuses on the positives, because it is less rewarding in the long run. Being hyper-critical is just a better way to get attention.
It's been a while since I had a chance to really put some time on my X-Men machine. I'm telling you, it's an impressive piece of work. I really appreciate the full DMD show, and am so glad that it wasn't one of those 33% - 66% split DMD's. The animations are just incredible...particularly when you beat a villain like Juggernaut or Magneto...or get an Extra Ball or Replay. The music is incredibly varied, and fantastically composed. David Thiel did a marvelous job.
I'm very happy that I'm an owner of this game.
Pete
Post of the year Pete. Congrats.
Same thing happened with Transformers and Avengers.
A couple of guys on an Internet forum make a ruckus about some aspects they don't like and everyone thinks the game is a clanger.
I have a lot of pinball machines .. The ones I play most often?
Transformers LE
Avengers LE
Xmen LE
People come and play these games and say "hey, I read this is crap! But it's great! Can I buy it?"
The main problem is people believe what they read in the press and on the net ... And like sheep, they follow blindly.
rd.
Quoted from DugFreez:I've had my X-Men since release and I've also been a big user of Pinball Browser since it was released. I THOUGHT I had been through the X-Men 1.1 code with Pinball Browser before, but I just tried it and it kept crashing the program when I would go into the sound section.
I was afraid that my original 1.1 code had become corrupt and it strangely has a date modified date of 12/21/2009 on the bin file. So I decided to load it up on a USB drive and try flashing it to my game. The update worked fine. I then backed it up and took it back to my PC. The new backup has the same results in Pinball Browser...it would crash if I attempted to play any sounds and the date modified (even on the new backup from the game) was still 12/21/2009.
Anyway...I finally decided that I must have only opened up other early versions of the X-Men in Pinball Browser before. I was quite surprised at how much DMD info was in version 1.1 that wasn't implemented in the game at the time. All the Dark Phoenix and Danger Room DMD animations are there. The intro to Weapon X multiball was there, but no hall running and slashing animations.
There was also a lot of the animations that were used then that have since been cut (but are still in the current software version). I did run into 2 or 3 animations that were never used and later cut from later software updates. It makes me wonder if they were tossing around other ideas for another wizard mode.
Playing on the old code....it did have some nice touches that were lost. Don't get me wrong...the newer codes are much better. It's just a shame that a lot of small things I enjoyed and had forgot about are gone. The obvious ones are all of the separate character callouts and DMD animations when you would first hit their shots. I don't have any idea why they had to pull them. I would still like the animation and call out when hitting each shot for the first time. Kind of like an introduction to each shot / character. The opening music was also nice and there is no reason they couldn't have kept it in place to randomly play in certain games.
I also like the completed villains still showing up on the villain select screen with the "Completed" logo over top of them. The one thing I forgot about that I really liked was getting the mystery award at the scoop. It use to quickly cycle through the awards with some cool sounds effects before the Blackbird taking off animations.
You are right, first code was terrible in some regards but had some great nuggets. It's too bad it's not open source because I think someone could brush it up into a better game. Especially sad to see that there was animations and callouts that are lost. 
I plan to revisit the old code some time. I did go back for a while after the Xmas crap power pack.
I was trying to sell XMLE because I felt it was too hard, Beast and Storm shots and Rogue. But while I was waiting to sell it a funny thing happened, I played the heck out of it and am not hitting all kinds of combos and defeating more modes and hitting Beast and Gambit hurry up.
I'm keeping it now! I think this game has it's flaws, it's never going to be thought of as highly as ACDC premium but I think it's a real nice game, a diamond in the rough.
I have Tron which I prefer, but was thinking probably XM has twice the code or in other words just defeating the heroes and getting to DR is probably on par with defeating the Tron modes.
I do wish the game would get another code update or bug fix or super done version, but I'm not optimistic. It's almost as if Stern made a close to great game but gave up before it was really great.
1 week later
Sorry first code was bad in all regards and I think it played a huge role in the pin getting a bad rap. I think it is a great pin as it stands now one of my favorite.
This thread really needs to be the fan club thread. The word EPIC gets tossed around a lot, but this is the longest thread in Pinside history I believe. To honor it it should be the club thread. What do you guys think?
I've been known to keep a game for 6 months and then trade it for another or sell it and buy another one but I just traded for a x-men pro yesterday and I'm blown away. It was a cool game when I plugged it in and started playing but then just today I downloaded the new code. This game is sick. Here comes............ I'll stop short of saying it's never gonna leave my collection but wow this game is awesome now
Quoted from TigerLaw:This thread really needs to be the fan club thread. The word EPIC gets tossed around a lot, but this is the longest thread in Pinside history I believe. To honor it it should be the club thread. What do you guys think?
I second the motion!
Rob
Robsgameroom.com
Quoted from MrBellMan:I second the motion!
Rob
Robsgameroom.com
Alright, we have a motion and a second on the floor. I also noticed the Dude gave the thought a thumbs up so I am taking that as his consent as well.
I will private message PMWolf as the OP and get his permission. If granted I will move this thread to the clubs section and lock the other XMen club thread (I think it has under 200 posts).
Quoted from TigerLaw:Alright, we have a motion and a second on the floor. I also noticed the Dude gave the thought a thumbs up so I am taking that as his consent as well.
I will private message PMWolf as the OP and get his permission. If granted I will move this thread to the clubs section and lock the other XMen club thread (I think it has under 200 posts).
Don't forget centreflank gave you a thumbs up too. That's worth at least four Dude thumbs.
Quoted from TigerLaw:I will private message PMWolf as the OP and get his permission
I would have to guess he is all in on that now that he finally got his working.
pmWolf agreed. This is now the official XMen Club thread. I will lock down the other thread that was started a few weeks ago if it pops up again.
Quoted from pmWolf:Anyone go back and read it all from the beginning?
I just read a couple pages of them. I think it is funny I thought it was possible to be the LCD unveiling. Gosh, Stern has taken their time with getting that out to us . . .
Anyway, X-Men Wolverine LE #3 here, Mutant and Proud!
Quoted from PaulCoff:It's nice to see this thread still growing.
longshot2.jpg 49 KB
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Holy crap....Longshot!
Such a nice, spiky mullet. He and Bishop could have a mullet-off.
Quoted from QuarterGrabber:Don't forget centreflank gave you a thumbs up too. That's worth at least four Dude thumbs.
Big thumbs down on that one bud!! 
I am in! X-Men Pro was my first pin and started the obsession! 6 pins later and an unmentionable amount of spare parts, it's a keeper! Stock, no LEDs, but I did splurge on the shaker motor -- highly reccomended.
Marc
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:That Spidey looks very familiar!! look great side by side
And I miss it too Pete (even though I didn't get to play it that much), but have high hopes for it's replacement... IMVE!!!
Just love me some Super Hero pinball!
Rob
Robsgameroom.com
Quoted from TigerLaw:pmWolf agreed. This is now the official XMen Club thread. I will lock down the other thread that was started a few weeks ago if it pops up again.
There's the moral of the story, folks...
Once your thread reaches 173 pages, it gets upgraded to something "official."
Woohoo!
It was funny going back and looking at some old posts in this thread.
Like people being amazed that the thread got to 800+ posts without playfield pictures. In fact there were no pictures until PAGE 33 (over 1600 posts)!!! Or how PMwolf thought that the thread would die a slow death at around page 34 or 35 (its at 173!)
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