(Topic ID: 287799)

WWH20 random shutdown please help!

By Racinglosi

3 years ago


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  • 29 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by WH20_Buzz
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#1 3 years ago

Hey all, long time browser first time poster.

I have recently purchased a WWH2O. I knew it had battery damage when I bought it so iv replaced the CPU board with a brand new board from pinball basement and also installed a color led dmd. Other than that its all original and shoots great only problem is it will randomly crash and crash hard! Everything goes black when this happens and the speakers pop (scarribg the living out of me most times) Good news is if you turn the power off for 15sec and back on it comes back to life good as new. I should note it will do this while playing it and also while its just sitting there turned on, has never blown a fuse and while playing it I can hold both flippers down for as long as I want and this doesn't seem to crash it (I read a thread that can be a common prob ‍♂️) Iv stopped playing it in fear that one of these times its just not gonna come back and its so random I have no idea where to start troubleshooting. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!!

#2 3 years ago
Quoted from Racinglosi:

Hey all, long time browser first time poster.
I have recently purchased a WWH2O. I knew it had battery damage when I bought it so iv replaced the CPU board with a brand new board from pinball basement and also installed a color led dmd. Other than that its all original and shoots great only problem is it will randomly crash and crash hard! Everything goes black when this happens and the speakers pop (scarribg the living out of me most times) Good news is if you turn the power off for 15sec and back on it comes back to life good as new. I should note it will do this while playing it and also while its just sitting there turned on, has never blown a fuse and while playing it I can hold both flippers down for as long as I want and this doesn't seem to crash it (I read a thread that can be a common prob ‍♂️) Iv stopped playing it in fear that one of these times its just not gonna come back and its so random I have no idea where to start troubleshooting. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!!

You have a new MPU so it would not be the old MPU board reset problems that used to occur. Maybe the power driver board needs repair.

#3 3 years ago

Would post to the Whitewater Club... As well as here !
Should check out the club though as there is a lot of game specific information there.

#5 3 years ago

Ill post this in the WWH20 club forum for sure and give that pinwiki link a good read. Thanks!

#6 3 years ago

I'm going to offer a different opinion based on what was written above and then pose another question to the OP. I am not disputing that it cannot be a WPC reset but opining that it MAY not be.

Quoted from Racinglosi:

... randomly crash and crash hard! Everything goes black when this happens and the speakers pop (scarribg the living out of me most times)

This does sound like a typical reset but the speaker popping is a sign that it is not typical. The speaker pop happens due to a voltage / current surge at initial power on in the analog side. Once the circuits have reached an equilibrium any resets of the digital logic side don't change the analog circuit.

Quoted from Racinglosi:

Good news is if you turn the power off for 15sec and back on it comes back to life good as new. I should note it will do this while playing it and also while its just sitting there turned on

OP: When the "hard crash" happens does the machine automatically return to "game over" or "attract" mode or does it just sit there and do nothing until you physically power cycle the machine?

A slam tilt is equivalent to a "WPC reset" (but not identical) so you can trigger a slam tilt and see if the result is the same.

-1
#7 3 years ago

I would think the NEW MPU would have the WPC reset fix already on it

#8 3 years ago
Quoted from woody76:

I would think the NEW MPU would have the WPC reset fix already on it

The CPU board is rarely (if ever) the source of the cause for a WPC reset. It's often the connectors between the transformer or the boards or components on the power board.

A new board is also not a guarantee that any issue will be fixed without root causing the actual problem first.

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from woody76:

I would think the NEW MPU would have the WPC reset fix already on it

The power supply is typically the source of the famed WPC reset issue, since that's the board supplying the 5v. When the 5v drops too low, the MPU resets. Typically, problems on the MPU are caused by battery damage which result in various other symptoms (such as issues with the switch matrix), but don't generally cause resets.

I think the fix you might be thinking of is the the add-on kahr daugher board, which basically takes the 12v circuit and regulates it down to 5v for the MPU.

There are of course a couple other problem points before you get into the mess of components on the driver board, but the pinwiki troubleshooting guide helps guide you through tracking down the issue.

[edit]: Nevermind, not a WPC reset, as per new info below.

#10 3 years ago

Try reseating the 4 connector ribbon cables from the CPU to fliptronix to sound board to the DMD controller board. I bought a Wh20 last weekend and the machine crashed on me as well and went completely black. I went and reseated those cables and fixed it.

#11 3 years ago

DumbAss when the machine crashes it dies and just sits there, nothing works tell I cycle the power off and back on. As far as slam tilts go iv bent the slam tilt switch on the inside of the door so there is no way its a slam tilt unless there is another switch somewhere i’m not aware of. Also when iv triggered the slam tilt before I bent the switch it would always reset on its own.

Ill dig a little deeper into the power supply mentioned as well and thanks again for all the great info!!

#12 3 years ago

I'd also check all of your stand up targets. Be sure they are wired right. The base colors ( not the stripes ) should be the same on everyone. White wire and black end of diode to a lug. Green wire to a lug. Silver band end of diode to a lug.

White Water is sensitive to a switch wired wrong.

LTG : )

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from Racinglosi:

when the machine crashes it dies and just sits there, nothing works tell I cycle the power off and back on.

This is NOT a WPC reset. This is either a hardware instability (causing incorrect software execution) or a software error (bug) that results in either an infinite loop or the processor possibly executing some form of illegal instruction and then trapping to an exception vector that is not equipped to recover from that situation. I don't know enough about the 6809 to know for sure but it's probably not complicated enough to have exception handlers - it only has IRQ, FIRQ and NMI. It likely executed an undefined (in the hardware instruction decode) instruction and went off to la-la land.

This is what the watchdog is supposed to prevent. When the watchdog detects a low enough voltage so that TTL voltage levels become indeterminate it's supposed to reset the system to restore reliable execution. It's almost certain that your digital logic voltage level was fine - otherwise the watchdog would have reset the system.

Honestly ... it's unlikely (but not impossible) that it's a software bug. It's more likely some hardware issue causing incorrect software execution.

Quoted from Racinglosi:

Also when iv triggered the slam tilt before I bent the switch it would always reset on its own.

This is what a typical WPC reset does. The momentary drop in voltage below the threshold of the watchdog causes the watchdog to pull the ~RESET line low (that causes the system to reset) and when the ~RESET line is released (to high logic level) the system restarts (by itself).

#14 3 years ago

This is such good information!! Thank you everyone for taking the time to wright. I will have a little bit of time to look at it tonight after work.

Quoted from LTG:

I'd also check all of your stand up targets. Be sure they are wired right. The base colors ( not the stripes ) should be the same on everyone. White wire and black end of diode to a lug. Green wire to a lug. Silver band end of diode to a lug.
White Water is sensitive to a switch wired wrong.
LTG : )

LTG I did recently replace the lock standup target but literally cut the old switch off so I would solder the new one in correctly but ill double check. Thanks for this!

Quoted from DumbAss:

This is NOT a WPC reset. This is either a hardware instability (causing incorrect software execution) or a software error (bug) that results in either an infinite loop or the processor possibly executing some form of illegal instruction and then trapping to an exception vector that is not equipped to recover from that situation. I don't know enough about the 6809 to know for sure but it's probably not complicated enough to have exception handlers - it only has IRQ, FIRQ and NMI. It likely executed an undefined (in the hardware instruction decode) instruction and went off to la-la land.
This is what the watchdog is supposed to prevent. When the watchdog detects a low enough voltage so that TTL voltage levels become indeterminate it's supposed to reset the system to restore reliable execution. It's almost certain that your digital logic voltage level was fine - otherwise the watchdog would have reset the system.
Honestly ... it's unlikely (but not impossible) that it's a software bug. It's more likely some hardware issue causing incorrect software execution.

This is what a typical WPC reset does. The momentary drop in voltage below the threshold of the watchdog causes the watchdog to pull the ~RESET line low (that causes the system to reset) and when the ~RESET line is released (to high logic level) the system restarts (by itself).

I agree I don’t think its a typical WPC RESET either because like I said iv held both flipper down for a very long time and it caused no issues, I'm also a bit baffled the it will do it in attract mod. Thanks again for the info everyone!

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from HookedonPinonics:

Try reseating the 4 connector ribbon cables from the CPU to fliptronix to sound board to the DMD controller board. I bought a Wh20 last weekend and the machine crashed on me as well and went completely black. I went and reseated those cables and fixed it.

Ill do this for sure!! Thanks!!

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from Racinglosi:

iv held both flipper down for a very long time and it caused no issues, I'm also a bit baffled the it will do it in attract mod.

Agree with the hang / crash in attract mode. In my experience it's indicative of hardware failure / instability.

If you want to exacerbate the classic WPC reset then "chimp flip" during multiball.

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Agree with the hang / crash in attract mode. In my experience it's indicative of hardware failure / instability.
If you want to exacerbate the classic WPC reset then "chimp flip" during multiball.

Interesting, Ill try it for sure but I'm curious why during multiball?

Thanks again

#18 3 years ago

If the game is completely blacking out, no GI or anything, I would unplug the game and open the power box. The thermistor would be the first place I would look. When they're bad, you can usually see it. Can be bypassed to confirm.

Would also check the main fuse and main fuse holder.

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from Racinglosi:

Interesting, Ill try it for sure but I'm curious why during multiball?

Multiball has a greater potential to trigger more solenoids more frequently. Three balls in the playfield = three times the chance a solenoid will fire.

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

If the game is completely blacking out, no GI or anything, I would unplug the game and open the power box. The thermistor would be the first place I would look. When they're bad, you can usually see it. Can be bypassed to confirm.
Would also check the main fuse and main fuse holder.

Good idea! Thanks for the tip ill open it up and see what I can see.

#21 3 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Multiball has a greater potential to trigger more solenoids more frequently. Three balls in the playfield = three times the chance a solenoid will fire.

Awwww gotcha! Everyday’s a school day haha

Thanks again

1 month later
#22 3 years ago

LH 6 Game Rom does have a bug that causes resets. When the 2 Hot foot targets are activated at exactly the same time it will cause a Game Reset. If it happens during game play just adjust the switch gap.

#23 3 years ago
Quoted from WH20_Buzz:

LH 6 Game Rom does have a bug that causes resets. When the 2 Hot foot targets are activated at exactly the same time it will cause a Game Reset. If it happens during game play just adjust the switch gap.

I believe you mean the LH-5 rom. That's the one with the reset issue. LH-6 fixed this.

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

I believe you mean the LH-5 rom. That's the one with the reset issue. LH-6 fixed this.

Nope I've tried 3 different LH 6 roms and my game will still do it when the Hot Foot Targets are adjusted perfectly. I had to make the Gap slightly larger on just 1 of the targets to stop it getting resets. This is with a Rottendog Driver Board and CPU Board with NV RAM & Mosfet Fliptonics Board.
My game also has 8 Connectors replaced and every single Electro Cap in the Entire Game replaced. 8 Amp Bridges in the Chase Board and so it goes.
It would have to be the most reliable Pinball Machine here and yet it will still reset on a perfectly rigged set of Hot Foot targets

IMG_2605 (resized).JPGIMG_2605 (resized).JPG
#25 3 years ago
Quoted from WH20_Buzz:

Nope I've tried 3 different LH 6 roms and my game will still do it when the Hot Foot Targets are adjusted perfectly. I had to make the Gap slightly larger on just 1 of the targets to stop it getting resets. This is with a Rottendog Driver Board and CPU Board with NV RAM & Mosfet Fliptonics Board.

Then I suspect that you have an issue somewhere with your machine. I've been running the LH-6 rom since it was first released, without ever having a reset.

When I had the LH-5 installed, I would get resets quite often.

And I have yet to hear of anyone else having such an issue with LH-6. Of course, I'm running original hardware, so it could easily be that one of your replacement boards is part of the issue.

Asking everyone else, has anyone else had a reset issue due to using LH-6 roms? And if so, what board set are you running?

#26 3 years ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Then I suspect that you have an issue somewhere with your machine. I've been running the LH-6 rom since it was first released, without ever having a reset.
When I had the LH-5 installed, I would get resets quite often.
And I have yet to hear of anyone else having such an issue with LH-6. Of course, I'm running original hardware, so it could easily be that one of your replacement boards is part of the issue.
Asking everyone else, has anyone else had a reset issue due to using LH-6 roms? And if so, what board set are you running?

It has never had a single fault since I rebuilt it 3 years ago. Hot foot resets aside.
Maybe they made it a lot better than LH5 but they never got rid of the problem....Keep in mind we are talking about 3/1000 of an inch gap.
I have all the targets rigged to a very fine tolerance. Its not an issue now, but if I adjust that lower switch to the exact same gap as the upper switch then Boom it will reset around 30% of the time when both targets are pushed by hand.

#27 3 years ago

Getting back to the Owners Problem. He describes it not as a reset but total power failure.

First thoughts are check for signs of heat on the Main Cab Transformer Connector. It will be brown and warm or hot to touch if its an issue.
Or the Thermistor in the Main Power Box

Given the description it really cant be anything else and points more toward the Thermistor.
You can Bridge it and see if that fixes it. Cab Connectors are now becoming more problematic as we come into the 30 year mark

#28 3 years ago

Repin J114. I have seen many WPC games with loose tension on these pins and plugs in too easy. There's your sign.

#29 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Repin J114. I have seen many WPC games with loose tension on these pins and plugs in too easy. There's your sign.

Cant be J114 because the Audio Board is clearly losing its AC feed and that Feed comes directly from the Transformer.

I agree that J114 is problematic but it doesn't stop there. J101, J102, J210, J115, J120, J121,J105, J902, and J1 are all going to give all WH20 machines problems in the future, and they all need changing alone with a heap of other stuff if you want to have a trouble free machine for the next 30 years

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