(Topic ID: 98362)

WW Tech help: Flippers trigger flashers???


By 27dnast

4 years ago



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  • 20 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 23 days ago by kbliznick
  • Topic is favorited by 17 Pinsiders

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System 11 Flasher fix board only (resized).jpg
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#1 4 years ago

So my WW has popped up an issue...during a game, triggering the right or left flipper button causes 3 ramp flashers and 3 play field flashers to light-up. This does not happen in coil test mode...only when a game has been started

Here's a video:

The only thing I've done to the game is add a single LED lamp in the topper (which is linked to a rear playfield GI lamp). Whole machine is LEDed.photo.JPG

Thoughts?

#2 4 years ago

This happened to me and I swapped the ramp flashers back to incandescents, hasn't happed since. I don't know if this is the answer you wanted/are looking for, but it worked for me.

#3 4 years ago

Hmmm... yeah, not really the answer I was looking for. But, I put in LED flashers on this game about 8 months ago and it never exhibited this issue before...

#4 4 years ago

Check diodes on the flippper coil, one of them could have broke loose or burned open.

#5 4 years ago

I'll check... but it happens with both flippers.

Kind of odd that it doesn't happen in coil test mode?

#6 4 years ago

That is an odd one.
Any alkaline damage on the MPU?...long shot...but we must know.

Remove the two connectors that provide a path to ground for the coils/flashers. These will be on the lower edge, left side of the MPU.
Retest.

The game won't serve a ball, but you should be able to flip the flippers.
We are trying to see if the flashlamps are finding a path to ground via another method than the drive transistors.
Report back.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#7 4 years ago

Nothing wrong with the game.

This is what happens to all system 11B and 11C games (with the Aux driver board) when you install LED flashlamps into solenoid spots 3,4, 6 and 7.

There are tie-back diodes on the large TIP36 transistors that connect those circuits to the 50V power source. There is a some feedback into these circuits from the flippers that is not apparent until you install LED's.

To fix this, Cut diodes D3, D4, D6 and D7 from the aux driver board. Then add diodes onto the coils for solenoids 3,4,6 and 7 (banded end of the diode goes to the power wire)

#8 4 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

Nothing wrong with the game.
This is what happens to all system 11B and 11C games (with the Aux driver board) when you install LED flashlamps into solenoid spots 3,4, 6 and 7.
There are tie-back diodes on the large TIP36 transistors that connect those circuits to the 50V power source. There is a some feedback into these circuits from the flippers that is not apparent until you install LED's.
To fix this, Cut diodes D3, D4, D6 and D7 from the aux driver board. Then add diodes onto the coils for solenoids 3,4,6 and 7 (banded end of the diode goes to the power wire)

AWESOME information! What is the rating for the diodes, if I can ask?

#9 4 years ago

I believe any of the 1N400X will work. I usually use the 1n4007's

#10 4 years ago

Thanks for the replies.

Chris, I'll start with your suggestion...

kblixnick...very interesting info. I'm really confused, however, as to why this issue suddenly popped-up nearly 8 months after the LEDs were installed??? Odd...

#11 4 years ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

Thanks for the replies.
Chris, I'll start with your suggestion...
kblixnick...very interesting info. I'm really confused, however, as to why this issue suddenly popped-up nearly 8 months after the LEDs were installed??? Odd...

My suggestion was a long shot really.
For my thin theory to hold true, each of the flash lamp ground path wires would have to be connected. I can't see how that would ever happen.

I'm more inclined to think that Kris' suggestion is more likely, although I can't explain why the issue would crop up this late.

An easy test is to do as Kris suggests and replace the LEDs at 3, 4, 6, and 7 with incandescents.
Retest.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#12 4 years ago

Alright, Kris... looks like you've hit the nail on the head. Switched out the ramp flashers to incandescents and those no longer are activated by flippers. And the 3 affected insert flashers are now barely flashing with each flip.

I guess it's not outside of the realm of possibility that I never noticed this before and it has been happening all along!

So, now... the million dollar question: Do I cut diodes on the aux power board and add diodes to the coils...per the suggestion. OR, do I just swap incandescents back in the machine and keep on trucking.

My gut is telling me to leave the machine stock and not tinker...While I enjoy WW, it's the next game to go out the door (I'm pretty sure...). I've been toying with a trade (or sell/buy)...

#13 4 years ago

modifying the board and coils will still allow you to put incandescents back in. This was just an error in placement by Williams.

Alternatively you can leave the diodes on the board and modify the board. If you look at the schematic you just need to move the unbanded end of the diode to the other side of the resistor that it connects to.

#14 4 years ago

Okay... Let me look over everything and then I'll barrage you with some relatively easy to answer questions

2 years later
#15 1 year ago

Ok first off, I'm sorry for the necro bump, but I felt it necessary to post since the OP did not follow up.

I performed the fix suggested by Kbliznick. Instead of cutting the diodes, I desoldered them and relocated them to the sollenoids. Works perfect! The flasher flicker is totally gone.

Thank you kbliznick for sharing this info!

7 months later
#16 1 year ago

What if you leave the diodes on the board but add diodes to solenoids 3, 4, 6 and 7?

6 months later
#17 9 months ago
Quoted from tdk999:

What if you leave the diodes on the board but add diodes to solenoids 3, 4, 6 and 7?

Never tried that. I suspect the flash flicker will still be present because it's the tieback to the 50V that is causing the noise.

3 months later
#18 5 months ago

I just added red LED flashers on top side of playfield, causing the lowest left flasher to light each time either flipper is triggered. I was referred to this thread by GRUMPY from the Whirlwind owners thread.

What is the best practice? Desolder and move the diodes, or clip the board diodes and just add new ones?

Also: I am going to install full GI OCD boards. Will this make any difference with instructions in this thread above?

#19 5 months ago

There is no tie between the GI and the flashers. So one won't effect the other. As far as the fix for the flashers goes you can, add a incandescent bulb to one the circuits if there are more than one bulb in the circuit. So if there were 2 bulbs on the play field and one in the back box on a circuit just leave the bulb in the back box incandescent and the 2 LEDs on the play field will work correctly now. Or you can remove the diodes on the aux power supply and add new diodes too the coils of the same circuit. This allows you to have all the bulbs on the circuit be LEDs. As for removing the diodes I would just cut them off of the board so you don't have to remove the aux power supply from the game. If you need help with part identification and location just let me know.

4 months later
#20 23 days ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

modifying the board and coils will still allow you to put incandescents back in. This was just an error in placement by Williams.
Alternatively you can leave the diodes on the board and modify the board. If you look at the schematic you just need to move the unbanded end of the diode to the other side of the resistor that it connects to.

Someone found that I made a mistake with this second method for fixing this. Here is the correct information to do this as a board only fix and leave the coils under the pf the same.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Relooking at the schematic I see what I did wrong with suggesting this alternate method. Moving the diode to the other side of the resistor mimics the placement of the board mounted flyback diode on the 25V circuits. But as you found out that didn't work to stop the errant flashing. To actually mimic the placement of the adding the flyback diodes directly onto the A side coils at 3,4,6 and 7 you would have to cut and move the non banded legs of the D3, D4, D6 and D7 diodes to the non banded sides of diodes D33, D35, D39 and D41. This positions it so the flyback diode is isolated from the flasher circuits by the diodes that keep the A and C circuits apart.

This is more work than necessary to fix the issue, but does allow for a following owner or tech further down the line to not make the mistake of reverting a 3,4,6 or 7 coil with a diode for one without a diode

System 11 Flasher fix board only (resized).jpg

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