(Topic ID: 49293)

WTT: NIB MOPLE, NIB BIB or NIB LTBR for BBB, CC or some HEP Restored Titles

By jaimmy127

10 years ago


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  • 107 posts
  • 47 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 years ago by Nevus
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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There are 107 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
#51 10 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I probably should really put a value of over 8k on my FT anyway. Over 3k in parts, plus over 250 hours in labor and I am probably still underselling my work if I just valued it at $20 per hour (5k in labor).

Unless you refurbish pins for a living ( maybe you do, I have no idea ) I think it's pretty far-fetched to expect to be credited to the tune of $20 for your labour. I'm pretty sure that an overwhelming majority of people in this hobby don't even bother to put a value on their labour or when they do, it amounts to probably $2 an hour, certainly not $20. In a community where lots of people do their own work, how can we justify wanting to be remunerated for the work we do on our own pins ?

#52 10 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Sorry but when a Distributor is selling a game before he even has it in his hands for WELL over MSRP, that is called a markup.
In conjunction, if you want to take the distributor thing out of the equation in order to talk about markup vs going rate>>I know of the vast majority of METLE owners paid around $7200 delivered
so as far as I am concerned that is the going rate. After games are physically delivered and in peoples hands then we can see what the going rate is. Until games are in homes then anyone selling for more than MSRP is marking them up.
I was not confusing anything.

But this doesn't make sense - MSRP doesn't change whether it's before or after they are delivered. If your definition of mark-up is greater than MSRP, then yes. However if your definition is greater than the current rate, then no. Supply and demand - the distributor is simply trying to sell it for as high as possible, yet still sell it. Since Stern doesn't make distributors follow normal MSRP rules like most other manufacturers, it is fair game. Until Stern decides to contract distributors to either MSRP, or a max percentage above - they are simply trying to profit as much as possible. I wouldn't blame the distributors at all - it's certainly their right and quite frankly they'd be dumb to sell a game at $7200 when they can get $8500 - they aren't in the charity business.

#53 10 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Over 3k in parts, plus over 250 hours in labor and I am probably still underselling my work if I just valued it at $20 per hour (5k in labor). Meh... I will just wait an play MET after it is actually out and see if I even like it I suppose.

I'm trying to envision what could be accomplished in 250 hours of dedicated labor on one single pinball machine. Did you include cutting down a tree, hand-sawing the wood, and using single-sheet sandpaper and forming a new pinball cabinet?

#54 10 years ago

I agree.
Most distributors sold them for way under MSRP until the demand was seen. Then they had no extra to sell higher anyway. Some who bought them early are willing to trade them for a higher value toward a game they desire. Maybe now after the better premium was revealed even more so. If I had secured an LE. Your damn skippy I would be flipping it for the Dirty premium version as I think it looks better.

#55 10 years ago
Quoted from Eryeal:

I'm trying to envision what could be accomplished in 250 hours of labor on one single pinball machine. Did you include cutting down a tree, hand-sawing the wood, and using single-sheet sandpaper and forming a new pinball cabinet?

Here, you dont have to envision it.

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/why-not-an-ongoing-fish-tales-restoration

#56 10 years ago

Yeah I've peeked into that thread a couple times - don't remember seeing the actual hours accumulated, but would have never thought it amounted to actually 250 hours of dedicated work.

#57 10 years ago

NIB games to trade for a 15 year old game?

No doubt the CCC code has something to do with that.

CCC Rocks!!!

#58 10 years ago
Quoted from teekee:

Its a simple trade post, I see no drama... It doesn't matter where its posted its still a choice whether or not to make it into something its not. The drama will come only from those that choose to make it into that. Please make the right choice... is this really too much to ask?

You are the main drama starter in every single FS post. Can you just comment on the FS post and not reply and thumbs down every single person? It's getting super annoying at this point.

Good luck brother on that trade. Some solid titles you are looking for, hope it pans out for ya!

#59 10 years ago
Quoted from schmoo:

Unless you refurbish pins for a living ( maybe you do, I have no idea ) I think it's pretty far-fetched to expect to be credited to the tune of $20 for your labour. I'm pretty sure that an overwhelming majority of people in this hobby don't even bother to put a value on their labour or when they do, it amounts to probably $2 an hour, certainly not $20. In a community where lots of people do their own work, how can we justify wanting to be remunerated for the work we do on our own pins ?

Sorry have to say this, but it seems a lot of people's work I've seen is not even worth $2/hr. At least on so many pins I get where someone is like "I did all this work on it blah blah". I get it and it's a mess.

#60 10 years ago
Quoted from schmoo:

Unless you refurbish pins for a living ( maybe you do, I have no idea ) I think it's pretty far-fetched to expect to be credited to the tune of $20 for your labor.

It is about as far fetched as 'buying' games NIB from your distributor (i.e. good friend that reserves them for you so you can flip them) and feeling entitled to make a 20% markup for it. That said, when someone is valuing their METLE that they did NOTHING (except plop down some cash so you could flip it) at 9000+, then I think I should be more than justified in getting paid $20 per hour for my skilled labor.

Quoted from Eryeal:

I'm trying to envision what could be accomplished in 250 hours of dedicated labor on one single pinball machine. Did you include cutting down a tree, hand-sawing the wood, and using single-sheet sandpaper and forming a new pinball cabinet?

You don't have to be a jackazz about it! I may have worked slow but I was also meticulous. Take a minute to think about the hours that went into a project like that before dropping some donkey remarks like that.

How long do you think it would take you to do the following for your first time?:
Find and restore an original playfield, have it professionally ccoated, strip the entire cab and restore (or in this case improve), remove EVERY part and polish (yeah I even buffed all the crap on the underside), buff, clean, repair/rebuild it all, and then put it all back together. 250 hours is actually on the light side.

#61 10 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

It is about as far fetched as 'buying' games NIB from your distributor (i.e. good friend that reserves them for you so you can flip them) and feeling entitled to make a 20% markup for it. That said, when someone is valuing their METLE that they did NOTHING (except plop down some cash so you could flip it) at 9000+, then I think I should be more than justified in getting paid $20 per hour for my skilled labor.

The mistake that people sometimes make is adding in the cost of repairing/refurbishing above the actual value of a pin that is already in that condition.

For instance, if a pin in excellent condition is worth $5k. And I buy a beater at $2k, spend $1k on it, and spend 200 hours of my labor valued at $20 ... Does that mean my beater which I invested $7k in is worth more than the exact same condition machine that was just kept well for $5k? Granted certain restorations, HEP for example, actually make the game look better than even coming out of the factory the first day .. but most restorations simply restore it to looking like other nice quality versions, and many times spent more money and labor to make a machine look the same when they could have bought a high quality machine for less.

#62 10 years ago
Quoted from Eryeal:

The mistake that people sometimes make is adding in the cost of repairing/refurbishing above the actual value of a pin that is already in that condition.
For instance, if a pin in excellent condition is worth $5k. And I buy a beater at $2k, spend $1k on it, and spend 200 hours of my labor valued at $20 ... Does that mean my beater which I invested $7k in is worth more than the exact same condition machine that was just kept well for $5k? Granted certain restorations, HEP for example, actually make the game look better than even coming out of the factory the first day .. but most restorations simply restore it to looking like other nice quality versions, and many times spent more money and labor to make a machine look the same when they could have bought a high quality machine for less.

You have obviously not even looked at what I did on the FT restoration... If you think it is the exact same condition as an original game that was just maintained over the years then you are not paying attention and need to take a closer look/ get a more critical eye as to what goes into this scale of a project. I am pretty sure you can not buy ANY FT in the condition that mine currently is.

#63 10 years ago
Quoted from Eryeal:

For instance, if a pin in excellent condition is worth $5k. And I buy a beater at $2k, spend $1k on it, and spend 200 hours of my labor valued at $20 ... Does that mean my beater which I invested $7k in is worth more than the exact same condition machine that was just kept well for $5k?

If you did this, and its not nicer looking than the excellent condition one, you failed....the Fishtales Hilton did won an award and looked minty

How many restoration projects have you completed?

#64 10 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

If you did this, and its not nicer looking than the excellent condition one, you failed....the Fishtales Hilton did won an award and looked minty
How many restoration projects have you completed?

Fish tales is not an 8k game - you can restore it with 24k contacts. Not an an 8k game.

Time to move on - nothing here to see. Start a new thread discussing it and allow the OP his thread.

#65 10 years ago
Quoted from shlockdoc:

and allow the OP his thread.

Whats the difference? The op wants direct contact for selling his NIB game thats not even in his possession, all we are doing is bumping his thread with civil discussion.

#66 10 years ago

Teekee is the METLE cooler... He fights off people trying to voice there comments. Glad some of these early adopters (friends in high places) have someone to fight for them as they rape the masses for machines they didn't even want... bartering tools

Come at me teekee I'm waiting for you... no one puts baby in a corner. ROAD HOUSE

#67 10 years ago

Hey Jim sounds like you have some good trading tokens. I have a friend who picked up a BBB for trading two AC/DC LE's-so it is possible. It will be like winning the lottery-trying to get someone to give one up-but possible. I keep seeing this ad in San Francisco Craigslist for someone looking for a BBB-offering $5000-LOL I think we all would like that(: Anyway I hope you find your BBB and if I see anything I will let you know-Good Luck!

#68 10 years ago
Quoted from Sc1f1:

Teekee is the METLE cooler... He fights off people trying to voice there comments. Glad some of these early adopters (friends in high places) have someone to fight for them as they rape the masses for machines they didn't even want... bartering tools
Come at me teekee I'm waiting for you... no one puts baby in a corner. ROAD HOUSE

2 pages and 19 hours ago Tekee posted? Do you still smell his scent? Do you have mancrush?

#69 10 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

You have obviously not even looked at what I did on the FT restoration... If you think it is the exact same condition as an original game that was just maintained over the years then you are not paying attention and need to take a closer look/ get a more critical eye as to what goes into this scale of a project. I am pretty sure you can not buy ANY FT in the condition that mine currently is.

You should have sold it to one of the three guys that offered you $6000 at MGC. I would have in a heartbeat. And I agree, doesn't matter how much time you put into it, you'll have a hard time finding someone that's willing to pay $8000 for it.

#70 10 years ago
Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:

You should have sold it to one of the three guys that offered you $6000 at MGC. I would have in a heartbeat. And I agree, doesn't matter how much time you put into it, you'll have a hard time finding someone that's willing to pay $8000 for it.

Yeah, you know me Bryan, I really was not asking 8k for my FT and if I wanted to sell it outright (I don't) I still have a standing offer from one guy from MGC that would apparently take it from me today.

I made a VERY FAIR offer to the OP in trade (me adding some cash for his METLE to get close to the MSRP), but he believes his METLE is worth a 20+% markup even though he still does not have it and did nothing to it. That is the only reason I (sarcastically) brought up that if this guy wants to get paid for what little work he did to flip this game then I should probably be valuing my actual time and skill at a similar markup. Heck, I should probably be adding a premium since I won at MGC

-1
#71 10 years ago
Quoted from shlockdoc:

2 pages and 19 hours ago Tekee posted? Do you still smell his scent? Do you have mancrush?

No, but it's good to see he has a couple more back ups at the club. Are you the fat linebacker that blew out his knee and is bitter about not making the NFL ended up being a cooler at the bar too?

#72 10 years ago

Man, I love Pinside.

#73 10 years ago

At $270 an hour for my labor my coffee table is worth more than my house.

#74 10 years ago

I wonder how many LE machines go to people like this topicstarter who does not even care about the game.

Now lots of people that wanted this machine so bad are missing out of it cause they all are sold.

Sad..... If you wanted a BBB go look for that instead of stealing someone elses mople spot.

What a selfish hobby is this, i cant hardly believe it. Oh..... I dont care if it is a good guy or not. This is something you just dont do in a niche hobby world which pinball is.

#75 10 years ago

Well, LE stashing has been a problem since Tron LE went crazy. I know of distributors who have stashed the majority of their allotment and have only sold a couple to buyers, hoping that their stash will be worth 2-3 times more down the road. It's a gamble, for sure. I don't think it's a safe bet though. Tron took off, but games like Avatar, X-Men, and Avengers are cheaper than when they first launched.

There's not much Stern can do, but it would be nice if distributors couldn't buy games just to store them in hopes of a price increase. Buyers doing so is a little less annoying, but I still don't like the practice there either.

That said, maybe this is just a case of someone buying an LE and later deciding that they'd rather have something else. It happens. Lots of WoZ owners backed out too.

#76 10 years ago
Quoted from jar155:

That said, maybe this is just a case of someone buying an LE and later deciding that they'd rather have something else. It happens. Lots of WoZ owners backed out too.

Do a quick internet (or even just pinside search for topics started) and you may come to a different conclusion on the OPs motivations.

I know I would like to see Stern just go to a direct order system. Seems pretty simple... Announce a drop time and a timed release edition. Let everyone know that on X date and X time, all LEs will go on sale. LEs stay on sale for 1 week and the edition size is however many have been ordered in that time. 737 ordered means 737 LEs made and shipped. It would mean more profit for Stern since they would be dealing direct with the customer, less of this BS good ole boy flipping where distributors hold backlog on the hot titles or use friends as fronts to sell the hot games at inflated prices, and an indication that they actually care about the end user (i.e. keeps distributors from 'bumping' preorders on a hot game soe they can be greedy and maximize profit).

#77 10 years ago
Quoted from jar155:

There's not much Stern can do, but it would be nice if distributors couldn't buy games just to store them in hopes of a price increase. Buyers doing so is a little less annoying, but I still don't like the practice there either.

This is where you are wrong - Stern can absolutely prohibit distributors from offering above MSRP, or offering above a certain percentage MSRP. This is done in a majority of the retail business.

#78 10 years ago
Quoted from jar155:

Avengers are cheaper than when they first launched.
.

I think the Avengers LE price would be higher if the blue LE was not still available for sale at retail, if they where all HULK LE's I don't there wouldn't be one left at a retail unless they held them back for themselves.

#79 10 years ago

Obviously the OP has the right to sell the machine for whatever he wishes to since he did purchase it. However, if he wants to look truly noble (maybe he could care less about that and that’s fine as well) he would sell it for his cost to one of the guys that really wanted a Metallica LE and got dumped after Stern sent more to overseas. Otherwise it looks sort of like taking advantage of a situation to make a quick couple of Gs.

Anyway, he appears to have been a straight shooter in the past as there are a few guys here that valiantly sticking up for him and maybe he is a good guy and just needs the cash right now. Just my observation from reading these threads only.

#80 10 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

LEs stay on sale for 1 week and the edition size is however many have been ordered in that time.

That would defeat the propose of having the title of LE because you could end up selling more LE's then your other versions of that game if its a hot enough title in the beginning then demand falls off afterwards.

What is the average run per title for stern?

#81 10 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

He's now the self-appointed Pinside Ethics Police....lol

No, he could care less about Ethics. He is the self-appointed NIB Stern LE Price-Hype Cheerleader. Why? Because he's sitting on a few.

As Neo said, in every-every-every NIB BIB or NIB Tron or NIB LTBR there you will find Teekee, hyping away at whatever astronomical price or far-fetched trade of madness the OP has selected. I think everyone is wise to it at this point.

-1
#82 10 years ago
Quoted from mechslave:

No, he could care less about Ethics. He is the self-appointed NIB Stern LE Price-Hype Cheerleader. Why? Because he's sitting on a few.
As Neo said, in every-every-every NIB BIB or NIB Tron or NIB LTBR there you will find Teekee, hyping away at whatever astronomical price or far-fetched trade of madness the OP has selected. I think everyone is wise to it at this point.

#83 10 years ago
Quoted from bigdaddy07:

Otherwise it looks sort of like taking advantage of a situation to make a quick couple of Gs.

I think for some folks this is the whole appeal of pinball. It surprises me that the bulk of the hobby community (at least especially on Pinside) tolerates being taken advantage of on such a regular basis.

#84 10 years ago
Quoted from Pinballfantexas:

I think the Avengers LE price would be higher if the blue LE was not still available for sale at retail, if they where all HULK LE's I don't there wouldn't be one left at a retail unless they held them back for themselves.

I don't think so. If it was a quality game and had a better universal appeal aside from the theme, all the LEs would be gone. It's just not that much fun to play, especially when NIB Trons and AC/DCs are available.

#85 10 years ago
Quoted from GListOverflow:

It surprises me that the bulk of the hobby community (at least especially on Pinside) tolerates being taken advantage of on such a regular basis.

I don't feel too bad for the people that are being "taken advantage of" by flippers on this title. Reason being is that there is a Premium model that is readily available for a non inflated price that is the same game other than having different different stickers and backglass. If someone wants to blow a few extra G's for a few cosmetic differences so be it. I really don't feel sorry for anyone that has $9-$10K in disposable income to spend on a toy. There are many many less fortunate people in this World that I would rather feel sympathy for that have "real" problems to deal with.

#86 10 years ago

I feel sympathy for them both

#87 10 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

I don't feel too bad for the people that are being "taken advantage of" by flippers on this title.

I think you mistook what I was saying. I'm not saying "Oh the poor rich people getting taken advantage of", I'm saying I'm surprised so many around here are willing to be cash cows for pin flippers, especially when it is so blatant.

Most other hobbies or communities I have been a part of stick together and tell people trying to cash in off of the community to take a hike.

#88 10 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I feel sympathy for them both

Don't get me wrong, I do feel some sympathy for the people that had deposits and got bumped.-especially since many of these games went to flippers. But I don't feel bad for the people that are willing to pay an exorbitant amount of money to these flippers at this point in the game. These people aren't sorry souls that are being taken advantage of but rather they know exactly what they are doing and are just fueling this type of behavior. Stop paying more than MSRP and people will stop hoarding games! The Premium and LE are the same game. It's like being upset because you get stuck with a black iPhone instead of a white.-They are both iPhones. We collectors are a pretty fortunate bunch to be able to get upset over such petty first-World issues.

#89 10 years ago
Quoted from GListOverflow:

I think for some folks this is the whole appeal of pinball. It surprises me that the bulk of the hobby community (at least especially on Pinside) tolerates being taken advantage of on such a regular basis.

Being fairly new to the whole pinball ownership thing, honestly, 80% of the vocal people here comes off as caring way too much about how much pinball is worth, limited models, and not very much about playing, repairing and restoration. You kind of set yourself up for it because it's more about "collecting" than it is about playing or working on the pins. It reminds me of why I quit collecting comics in the 80s. As soon as they started having 15 covers for every comic and trying to milk me for every possible cent I felt like it lost sight of the whole reason I liked comics in the first place.

All that being said, I realize there is only so much you can talk about online and that this website doesn't represent everybody. The pinball heads I've met in real life (and I've actually met a decent amount due to leagues and tournements) care a lot less about whether they have the LE, or whether the head has a scratch on it.

#90 10 years ago
Quoted from GListOverflow:

I think you mistook what I was saying. I'm not saying "Oh the poor rich people getting taken advantage of", I'm saying I'm surprised so many around here are willing to be cash cows for pin flippers, especially when it is so blatant.
Most other hobbies or communities I have been a part of stick together and tell people trying to cash in off of the community to take a hike.

I get this and tend to agree, but I find more fault in the buyers (cash cows) than the sellers/traders of such games. I would rather not see them use Pinside for such transactions or at least donate some of the proceeds to Pinside since they are using this website to advertise, but in a Capitalistic society it is what it is....

-1
#91 10 years ago

So some of you would say that if you had bought a Tron LE at retail from the beginning you would sell it for that same amount now? I highly doubt that. Am I wrong?

#92 10 years ago
Quoted from coasterguy:

So some of you would say that if you had bought a TRON LE at retail from the beginning you would sell it for that same amount now? I highly doubt that. Am I wrong?

No, but buying an LE to play it and sell it later is a whole different thing than buying one to sit on as an investment.

#93 10 years ago
Quoted from GListOverflow:

Most other hobbies or communities I have been a part of stick together and tell people trying to cash in off of the community to take a hike.

Regarding pinball prices, I think RGP is more of a community for hobbyists than pinside. Typically someone will offer a machine for sale below the market rate first, before taking it elsewhere if there isn't a quick sale.

Usually, a seller who is trying to get absolute maximum for their machine is not so gently told to take it to Pinball Classified, Ebay or Pinside....we are hobbyists here on RGP, don't you know, and we look out for each other.

#94 10 years ago
Quoted from Eryeal:

This is where you are wrong - Stern can absolutely prohibit distributors from offering above MSRP, or offering above a certain percentage MSRP. This is done in a majority of the retail business.

well, it's far more common for manufacturers to enforce a "map policy" (and a bit less common for them to enforce a "you cannot sell, period, below msrp")... it's rather uncommon for them to enforce a "don't sell above msrp policy"... i'm sure there are examples out there, but i'm having a problem thinking of one...

the reason they enforce map/msrp is to protect their distributorships... selling over msrp is generally not a concern of the manufacturer...

#95 10 years ago

My point was that we all sell for market value and that is where Metallica LE is. It went up before it came out.

#96 10 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Do a quick internet (or even just pinside search for topics started) and you may come to a different conclusion on the OPs motivations.
I know I would like to see Stern just go to a direct order system. Seems pretty simple... Announce a drop time and a timed release edition. Let everyone know that on X date and X time, all LEs will go on sale. LEs stay on sale for 1 week and the edition size is however many have been ordered in that time. 737 ordered means 737 LEs made and shipped. It would mean more profit for Stern since they would be dealing direct with the customer, less of this BS good ole boy flipping where distributors hold backlog on the hot titles or use friends as fronts to sell the hot games at inflated prices, and an indication that they actually care about the end user (i.e. keeps distributors from 'bumping' preorders on a hot game soe they can be greedy and maximize profit).

selling direct to the consumer is not a panacea, and introduces far more issues for a manufacturer than it solves... if it were a "more profitable" way of doing business, distributors would not exist (and that is far from unique to pinball)...

they are a "business"... "caring about the end user getting the toy he wants" doesn't really factor in...

#97 10 years ago
Quoted from coasterguy:

My point was that we all sell for market value and that is where Metallica LE is. It went up before it came out.

We don't necessarily "all sell for market value". Sounds like the OP sold back two of his machines below the market value.

#98 10 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Regarding pinball prices, I think RGP is more of a community for hobbyists than pinside. Typically someone will offer a machine for sale below the market rate first, before taking it elsewhere if there isn't a quick sale.
Usually, a seller who is trying to get absolute maximum for their machine is not so gently told to take it to Pinball Classified, Ebay or Pinside....we are hobbyists here on RGP, don't you know, and we look out for each other.

Let's hope most of us are hobbyist here as well... I think a silent majority here found some behavior disgusting.

#99 10 years ago

On the end Stern is the problem when it comes to customers getting the games In a fair manner. Too many dealers for such a small group of buyers IMO.

#100 10 years ago
Quoted from Jam_Burglar:

Being fairly new to the whole pinball ownership thing, honestly, 80% of the vocal people here comes off as caring way too much about how much pinball is worth, limited models, and not very much about playing, repairing and restoration. You kind of set yourself up for it because it's more about "collecting" than it is about playing or working on the pins. It reminds me of why I quit collecting comics in the 80s. As soon as they started having 15 covers for every comic and trying to milk me for every possible cent I felt like it lost sight of the whole reason I liked comics in the first place.

Truth

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