(Topic ID: 96122)

WTH! Firepower upper lock shot.


By Geocab

5 years ago



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  • 63 posts
  • 22 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by rcbrown316
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There are 63 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 5 years ago

Should the upper lock shot be difficult to hit even with a clean shot? I wouldn't think so, but it sure seems that way.

Even with a clean shot, the ball falls just short of the lock and drops down the "E" lane. I have rebuilt the flippers with new coils, Fliptronics style flipper mechs, with the EOS switch set to close with just less than an 1/8" of travel left in the piston. Just did a playfield swap with a CPR repro. Also a new switch installed at the right flipper button. Last I checked the table is at 6 degrees tilt.

What else should I be checking?

Thanks as always!

#2 5 years ago

Good question. I've only had my FP since September but it is so tough to get that top lock that I consider it just dumb luck when it happens to fall in - sometimes up the right side; sometimes a new ball shot, sometimes bouncing off the upper right popper... and every once in a long while up the left side.

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets

#3 5 years ago

With a clean shot I'm able to make it with mine and, other than the flipper bats and rubber, all the mechs are original. Are your bats, maybe, adjusted too low? Is your coil voltage low?

#4 5 years ago

I always had a lot of trouble with this shot as well. Eventually I found the ball was just barely bouncing off the small rubber ring that's around the post between that lock and the gate from the shooter lane. I took off that ring, and the shot got a lot easier.

-Hans

#5 5 years ago

It's designed to be a difficult shot that is nearly impossible to hit from a cradle. You have to hit the shot on the fly for the ball to have enough momentum to make that shot. Lubricating the spinner could help as well.

#6 5 years ago

You can cradle hit this on my FP with a good shot. Don't forget the flipper button contacts as well as EOS contacts.

#7 5 years ago

Maybe I'm lucky, but I don't have any trouble hitting this shot from a cradle with original mechs (rebuilt) and CPR playfield.

#8 5 years ago

I have the same issue. Makes achieving multiball nearly impossible considering the fast drains I get one or two balls a game. All that being said... WHAT A GREAT GAME!!!! Just picked it up saturday. have played it 60 or 70 times getting multiball twice and rolling it once. btw that 60 or 70 times was probably less than 45 minutes total gameplay time

I think my flippers have been rebuilt too. The assemblies look shinier than the rest of the stuff under the playfield. How can I tell for sure?

#9 5 years ago

Everyone that is having problems is dealing with a mechanical issue. The game, when working as designed, can make that shot.

The mech isnt perfectly aligned.
The mech is sloppy
the coil stop is worn
the sleeve is worn / sticky
EOS not adjusted properly or wasted
cabinet switches wasted
wrong flipper solenoid coil installed
flipper bat alignment wrong
game not level
incorrect, bent, mis adjusted playfied parts near that turn in the top left. including the spinner.

#10 5 years ago
Quoted from Geocab:

Should the upper lock shot be difficult to hit even with a clean shot? I wouldn't think so, but it sure seems that way.
Even with a clean shot, the ball falls just short of the lock and drops down the "E" lane. I have rebuilt the flippers with new coils, Fliptronics style flipper mechs, with the EOS switch set to close with just less than an 1/8" of travel left in the piston. Just did a playfield swap with a CPR repro. Also a new switch installed at the right flipper button. Last I checked the table is at 6 degrees tilt.
What else should I be checking?
Thanks as always!

This for me is always the "litmus test" on whether or not a Firepower is shopped and setup properly.

You just need to keep messing around with it. 6 degrees may be too steep...try making it a little more shallow. With rebuilt flippers and a brand new playfield there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to make that shot.

#11 5 years ago

I can easily make it from a cradle, but I have a CPR playfield and cleaned up the flippers. I need to adjust the right side captive ball lock. Mine likes to just up the star rollover and hit the plastic rather than roll over it. Gotta lower that leaf switch...

#12 5 years ago

I have 2 Firepower machines. One with freshly rebuilt flippers and one that I have not rebuilt yet. Even with a 6+ degree pitch, I can easily hit the lock shot on the rebuilt one. On the non-rebuilt one, I have to set the pitch to 4.5 ish and then I can make it no problem.

#13 5 years ago

Make sure the EOS switches for the flippers have the metal brace support on the back. For years my FP was as described frustratingly hard to get the lock at the top, with the flippers rebuilt.

I also adjusted the cabinet flipper switches.

Works perfectly one of the most satisfying shots in pinball.

#14 5 years ago

I have a new cabinet flipper switch. What's the proper adjustment on that?

I guess I'll take the flipper assembly apart and see if I put it together incorrectly.

As for flipper bat alignment, I have it to where the bat without rubber rests on a pin in the playfield hole.

I'm almost positive that I have the correct coil. I'll double check anyway...

#15 5 years ago

I usually just smack the plunger with my palm pretty
hard and it almosy always goes into the upper
saucer.

#16 5 years ago

The metal guide that feeds the flipper gate hammered back too. A rolling feed will hop off the flipper ring, robbing power from the shot. I think Cliffy remade those.

#17 5 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

The metal guide that feeds the flipper gate hammered back too. A rolling feed will hop off the flipper ring, robbing power from the shot. I think Cliffy remade those.

I'm sorry, I'm not completely understanding what you're saying here.

#18 5 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

incorrect, bent, mis adjusted playfied parts near that turn in the top left. including the spinner.

It's usually the metal guide rail on the outter edge I find.

#19 5 years ago
Quoted from Geocab:

I'm sorry, I'm not completely understanding what you're saying here.

The metal rail that the ball rolls on to get to the flipper. Its front edge gets mushroomed back just like coil stops do. After several years of this it no longer gives a seamless feed to the flipper. The ball will strike the edge of the flipper ring and hop forward, away from the flipper.

Take a ball and let it roll down the inlane to the flipper. Watch the transition from the metal guide to the flipper. If the ball maintains a straight trajectory you're good. If it hops away from the flipper, you need new guides.

This doesn't affect a cradle shot at all.

#20 5 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

The metal rail that the ball rolls on to get to the flipper. Its front edge gets mushroomed back just like coil stops do.

That's usually the case on the left, but not the right from what I have seen.

#21 5 years ago

Ok, I get what you're saying now, Cody. Thanks.

#22 5 years ago

Try the EOS switch with the metal tension brace. The flipper kits come with the EOS switch without these. It makes a world of difference mine were sluggish for years really is a different game. I have also heard of people cable tying the EOS switch. Without the brace at the back the EOS switch gets lag where it drags with the contact.

#23 5 years ago

I bought the EOS switches separate so they have the metal brace. I followed Vid's guide.

#24 5 years ago

My flipper coil is SFL 19/400 30/750.

#25 5 years ago

I have 37-38 volts at each lug on the right flipper. I tightened the crimps on the wires to the bridge rectifier. Spinner spins freely and I can make the shot on a roll, but still not a cradle. The flipper parts feel good and I rechecked the EOS gap.

I'm almost ready to have a very experienced tech come over and look this over. Just frustrating that I can't figure this out.

#26 5 years ago

Would it be worth a try to replace the bridge rectifier? 200V, 35 amp correct?

#27 5 years ago
Quoted from Geocab:

Would it be worth a try to replace the bridge rectifier? 200V, 35 amp correct?

I wouldn't think so but the more experienced can chime in. The bridge converts the AC to DC. Either it works or it doesn't. This was still the days of 25 volt flippers so you're getting above factory spec which should be enough. Just for experimentation, have you tried adjusting the pitch? I don't know the degrees but my back legs are appx. 1 3/4" from the floor to the bottom of the leg. The fronts are all the way down except for the support nut.

#28 5 years ago

Not yet, no. I'm going to have to recheck the degrees again, maybe I'm steeper than I think.

#29 5 years ago
Quoted from Geocab:

Would it be worth a try to replace the bridge rectifier? 200V, 35 amp correct?

You want a bridge, spade lugs, over 100v and over 20amp.

Replacing it is probably not going to help though. You could look at the AC voltage going in and DC coming out of the bridge. If your voltage drops a bunch, maybe replace it.

One thing I just thought of .... they put these crappy spade connectors on the bridge. Might have a poor connection there. Either recrimp on new spade lugs or just solder them right on the bridge (i don't consider this a hack)

#30 5 years ago

If it's not the flippers, perhaps the metal guide near the spinner lane is forcing the ball down. For a clean shot through the spinner, what F.I.R.E. lane does the ball usually go through?

#31 5 years ago

Apply carnauba wax to the playfield and all the metal guides leading to the top lock.

#32 5 years ago
Quoted from Jumping-Box:

If it's not the flippers, perhaps the metal guide near the spinner lane is forcing the ball down. For a clean shot through the spinner, what F.I.R.E. lane does the ball usually go through?

The "E".

#33 5 years ago
Quoted from mwsmith:

Apply carnauba wax to the playfield and all the metal guides leading to the top lock.

I'm trying this over the weekend - I like simple!

I also checked my playfield slope (left to right and top-to-bottom) using a clinometer app on the iPhone - Winkelmesser - works pretty well. I wasn't quite level left-to-right when I checked.

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pin

#34 5 years ago
Quoted from Geocab:

Even with a clean shot, the ball falls just short of the lock and drops down the "E" lane.

This must be frustrating.. I made a short video of the ball trajectory. Hope this helps.

#35 5 years ago
Quoted from Jumping-Box:

This must be frustrating.. I made a short video of the ball trajectory. Hope this helps.
» YouTube video

Thank you. A clean shot always looks like your last shot you labeled Weak Spinner Shot. Yours hits it pretty strong. Mine is no where near that beginning part of the video off of a cradle. Did you have a mulit-camera setup?

#36 5 years ago

Geo I ordered in a bunch of flipper parts and will be working on it on sunday. My right flipper is probably 75% of the strength of the left flipper and I can almost hit the shot from a cradle but not quite. I am going to do the wax thing as suggested by mw smith as well. You need this shot!!!

#37 5 years ago

if your game is not leveled correctly on the top part of the playfield, is will be difficult and damn near impossible.

#38 5 years ago
Quoted from Geocab:

Did you have a mulit-camera setup?

No multi-cam.. Just editing.
I noticed in the video, the ball hugs the top wall all the way into the lock. Perhaps it's just a matter of flipper strength. I can hit the spinner and get over 40G's - (40 spins)

#39 5 years ago

Hey Geo, sorry you have trouble with this. My Firepower angle is at 6.5 degree's. A good shot off the cradle has no trouble making that shot. I also am using the same coils as you stated in above post. Rebuilt all of my flippers a couple months ago. Also put in new cabinet button leaf switches. Do your EOS switches have the added tensioner piece on the back of the switch? If so, does it put good tension on the leaf switch?

Somebody mentioned lubing the spinner... Guys can you fill us in on how you do that?

Jack

#41 5 years ago

Could I trouble someone to take some photos of their flipper assembly if you have a Fliptronics style so that I xan see if there's something way different on mine? Maybe I didn't do a good job on the rebuild, I am still a novice with this. Although my F-14 flippers all work well after I rebuilt them.

J, the added tensioner looks good. I'll try to add some photos, or maybe some video.

Jumping-box, nice editing then. I thought you had multiple cameras set up and then edited in the footage of the same shot. What camera? The first shot looked like a GoPro view to me.

#42 5 years ago

Here's a quick vid of me trying to make the upper lock.

#43 5 years ago

And here is my EOS gap. Although it was a little bigger before.

#44 5 years ago

Also, I just took another measurement, my playfield is at 6 degrees.

#45 5 years ago
Quoted from Geocab:

Here's a quick vid of me trying to make the upper lock.
» YouTube video

Looks like you have plenty of velocity on the shot. Now I see why he's scratching his head on this one.
-mof

#46 5 years ago

Take some variables out of the equation by removing the spinner assembly and the upper left ball gate. If that allows you to hit the shot consistently then one of them is stealing momentum - look to see if the ball gate is bent down too much, and take a closer look at the spinner.

From the video it doesn't appear to be sitting 90 degrees to the playfield, and it definitely doesn't give you 40+ spins like mine would on a clean shot. For reference I'm at 6 degrees, fliptronics as per Vid's guide, and a clean shot from a cradle finds that saucer 100% of the time. One difference is that I have the rubber grommet in the mounting plate, so at rest more of the plunger is sitting in the coil. Someone smarter can chime in as to whether that would affect power or not...

Hard to tell but it looks like the ball guide is also slightly bent into the lane just after the spinner but before the screw hole. Maybe try to smooth that curve out a bit as well.

#47 5 years ago

You know, I didn't notice I don't have the rubber grommet. Good catch!

#48 5 years ago

I took your video and did some slow motion. Look at the spinner. For the one ball that was successfully locked, the spinner had more rotations compared to the other shots that didn't make it. I think on my Firepower, if the spinner only rotated ten or so times, it would not lock as well.

#49 5 years ago

I taped the spinner up so the ball would simply travel under it with no contact and the ball still does not hit the saucer. So I think I have two things to work out. Maybe the spinner needs to be loosened up somehow, but I still think I don't have enough power for this shot. I'm going to solder the wires to the bridge next.

#50 5 years ago

Try aligning your flippers with the lane guides and not using the pins in the playfield. I used to use those pins until someone at papa told me that you use a straight edge and line the flippers with rubber so they're perfectly in line with the lane guides. Sometimes they'll even look a little wonky after you're done, but you'll hit all your shots much more consistently. The slightest amount of ball hop during the inlane to flipper transistion can screw up your shot. Also did you use the wms flipper adjustment tool to make sure your flipper is away from the bushing and also replace the bushing when you did the pf swap?

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