(Topic ID: 94116)

WTB: HUO or Restored MM

By teekee

9 years ago


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  • 301 posts
  • 66 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 years ago by _litz
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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There are 301 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 7.
#151 9 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

You are absolutely correct. But you stopped after the $10k offer and gave no indication you were interested in going higher. Since you are ok quoting our PMs, here are the two messages after your offer:
JFH:
"$10k would not be enough incentive for me to sell - I would just keep it (and probably cancel MMR). I really hadn't thought of a price, but I get offers of $12k fairly often (without advertising), so it would probably be north of that. In the range of an MMR + another NIB game is probably what would interest me"
teekee:
"I understand… beautiful MM for sure but out of my range. With everything that is happening in the hobby with remakes and re-runs and who knows what else will happen. I just have a hard enough time paying $10k plus for anything let alone a pin that is being re-made. I think it is worth it for sure since there are probably so few true HUO MM left but I wouldn't be comfortable paying much more than 10. If anything changes let me know otherwise I will say patient and see what happens after the MMr release."
No other offer after 10 - fine, I understand. But that said to me that you valued my game at 10 and if you were saying 10 plus, the logical conclusion wasn't worth 10 plus to you. I had no way to know you would offer 12, because you said it was "out of your range".
I don't think my comments were unfair at all.
It's your thread ... You can offer whatever you want for whatever kind of game you want. I'm pretty sure mine is the nicest original unrestored MM out there (or very close), so the plus must require more (e.g. HEP detailing)

The plot thickens...

#152 9 years ago

Pinside is so boring lately that we need to pick on Teekee for our daily dose of drama? Thanks Teekee, for making Pinside fun.

-1
#153 9 years ago
Quoted from McCune:

Pinside is so boring lately that we need to pick on Teekee for our daily dose of drama? Thanks Teekee, for making Pinside fun.

Maybe Pinside should start donating to me?

#154 9 years ago

that way he can always afford the MM he says he can't afford.

#155 9 years ago

Just to be clear - I don't think Tony is/was trying to screw anyone. I just think he's looking for something he isn't going to find, at least until we all see what MMR is going to do.

One person's value on a BNIB MM with low plays is somewhere between $10k - $12k. Given the PLUS comment, presumably that person places a higher value on another version of a CQ MM.

Given that there hasn't been anyone else with a CQ MM (however you define it) put their game in the ring, it tells me that:

(A) the games aren't out there
(B) the desired price point isn't realistic
(C) the owners think their game is worth more
(D) Tony was hoping to get a good deal

Any or all of them may be true.

I'm just waiting to see if Tony finds an MM he likes at a price he's comfortable with and then learn about what condition the game is in.

For all the grief he gets on Pinside, I think it's fair to say that sale will definitively set the FMV of a CQ MM, since he has been one of the more active posters on the whole MM/MMR value discussion.

#156 9 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Yup, a few. I still love the look of a completely original well maintained HUO over a HEP. Different strokes for different folks.

I used to have a HUO MM that looked very similar to JFH's game. I now have a recent Keller restored MM and it is to the next level over my old HUO MM (It's freakin nice!)
No way I would sell this game for 10k and yes I have heard that a remake is coming for 8k

Bump for the OP (a solid Pinsider)
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#157 9 years ago

I'm not big on LEDs, but those purple accents really look nice!

#158 9 years ago

I have a original MM coming out of a high end restoration from one of the restorers you mentioned. It's been in restoration for 1.5 years. I was told today it will be the next machine out of the shop. Rebuilt to original standards, including original play field. This is my first restoration...taken a lot longer than I expected. I'm not opposed to selling the original MM for the right price.

#159 9 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

Just to be clear - I don't think Tony is/was trying to screw anyone.

Of course not… not sure why anyone would think this. I'm looking for a MM at a certain price and if I find the right one and the seller and I agree how would that be wrong? What's funny is that some here feel I would be 'screwing' myself for spending 10-12k on an original MM. I really don't understand either side of that issue…

Quoted from jfh:

J
Given that there hasn't been anyone else with a CQ MM (however you define it) put their game in the ring, it tells me that:
(A) the games aren't out there
(B) the desired price point isn't realistic
(C) the owners think their game is worth more
(D) Tony was hoping to get a good deal

Maybe a mixture of all four but mostly (D)… I've been saying all along that original nice MM's or nicely restored ones have not and will not be hurt much by MMr. Looks like I was right. But did anyone know for sure until now? It was worth a try and I will continue to try… trying to get a good deal is human nature and its what we are all looking for. Of course a 'good deal'/'bad deal' is all relative anyway.

I also think there are more HUO MM's out there than you think. I know there are plenty of professionally restored ones. Pinside is just a small part of the hobby base and maybe I'm not looking in the right place…

The bottom line is that I'll try to pay as little as possible while the seller tries to get as much as possible… Strange, very strange…

If my price points aren't realistic than I won't own a MM… I will pay what I want to pay or not buy one at all but I had to start somewhere. Location is a big deal as well. If I have to have it shipped that's another $500 and the risk of shipping a high end pin is never fun. I am fine with being patient…

For the record your HUO MM is worth 11k TO ME but I know that is way off from what you are wanting so I never made that offer… waste of time for both of us I felt. I also have to take into consideration that you're 1500 miles from me.

For me personally a HEP restored MM with an original restored play field would have the most value.

Sooo, I'm still looking. $10k PLUS… bump!

#160 9 years ago
Quoted from teekee:

Maybe a mixture of all four but mostly (D)… I've been saying all along that original nice MM's or nicely restored ones have not and will not be hurt much by MMr. Looks like I was right. !

You could be right at "this" point in time. Once MMr starts shipping, then market dynamics will change. I own a MM that I personally restored. I don't restore for others, just mine so I am not a known quantity but with over 250 hours of restore time into it I would say it's CQ+. With the number of mods i added I have about $12k into it. Would i sell it for that? No, too much emotional attachment to it at this point given the time i put into it, but i might have been very enticed at $15k-$20k - absolutely no chance of that happening now. My point is, demand for originals has certainly been impacted with the announcement while the CQ supply won't let go due to denial i.e.; taking a "loss" on their "investment" or the fact they simply wouldn't ever sell regardless of the price point. Just because no one is offering them up for sale doesn't mean the MM CQ market hasn't taken a hit - demand has dried up. When those MMr's start shipping demand will be even lower than today. There is a window of opportunity now for CQ MM's selling for above $8k but you are kidding yourself if you believe that will hold much longer.

-2
#161 9 years ago
Quoted from kmoore88:

You could be right at "this" point in time. Once MMr starts shipping, then market dynamics will change.

Yep, at this point in time super nice original MM's seem safe and the impact seems minimal but like you said it could change just as the entire hobby/market is changing... I don't feel the change will/would specifically be just because of MMr but because of the hobby as a whole... it seems to be heading in a negative direction IMO. And that's why I feel my offer is more than fair. If 10-12k will not get it done... I can certainly live with that.

#162 9 years ago

Good luck in your search.

As the pinside turns.

#163 9 years ago

I just picked up a very nice HUO MM from a local collector 2 days ago.

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It has a very nice original playfield and cabinet, clean board set, manuals and schematics that look to have never been cracked open before and even has the goody bag still stapled inside too!

There is some small wear in the shooter lane which I plan on putting a Cliffy there to prevent it from getting worse and will cover it up too. The Merlin hole already has a protector installed and some signs of wear in the flipper in lanes which I am not going to lose too much sleep over. If MM is a keeper for me I am confident that this will be an easy touch up and repair for my good friend Drano who helped me do a repair and spot clear on the orb kick out and magnet hole on my TOTAN a few years ago and still holding up great to this day.

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Now am I going to jump on the MMR hate train or try to justify my original MM purchase over MMR to others? Most definitely not and hope MMR does succeed because that means many other collectors can get to own it. I know a few friends of mine who got in on the pre-order since last Expo and a few that signed up a few weeks ago too after seeing all the progress Rick and Chicago gaming has been making.

I also have my own personal reasons for pulling the trigger on my original MM because when I did the math a MMR at $7,995usd is roughly $8,656.54cdn assuming I get a good exchange rate from my credit card or bank. On top of that I have to pay 13% sales tax so it is now $9,781.89cdn and my MMR won't just magically fly up to Canada so I figure another $150-200 shipping to my local distributor so now i am nearing $10k.

I like to also troubleshoot and work on my own games and know a few local friends with an electronics background and/or experience working on pins to help me out as well. There is also a huge repair knowledge base such as Clay's old guides, pinballninja blog, forums, etc... I am also not keen on the idea of having one game in my collection with a unique board set that I can not interchange to test in my other games. I'm sure a lot of thought and testing was done on the MMR boards but I would hate to have to pull that big light board out if it develops any issues. I spoke to a few local WOZ owners and one of them told me his game has more down time then up. He's had to swap this light board out 15x! At least JJP is trying to do something about it but that would be unacceptable and big disappointment to me but stuff like this happens with new technology.

#164 9 years ago

Nice find!

#165 9 years ago

Sure is... they're are definitely out there.

#166 9 years ago

I was told once that the sky is the limit for a price on a HUO MM anywhere from 15-18k if you want to define "sky" or whatever some collector is willing to pay. So if you now value them around 11-12k or at least offering that you may feel that they took a 5k hit cause of the remake?
personally id say some collectors would still be willing to pay at least 12k-15k for a gorgeous HUO MM. I think that is more of a realistic price point. we shall see i guess.
Just for the record i do own a HUO MM but would never sell it so i dont really care what the value, although i do care about the perception of vaule of a remake vs. original. As a collector a vaule the original much more, thats just me though. TO have the WMS logos and know it was actually built almost 20 years ago and is still in great shape means alot. Its like owning a time capsule into the past which is what most collectors are seeking.

#167 9 years ago
Quoted from Redeyes:

I was told once that the sky is the limit for a price on a HUO MM anywhere from 15-18k if you want to define "sky" or whatever some collector is willing to pay. So if you now value them around 11-12k or at least offering that you may feel that they took a 5k hit cause of the remake?

If I had bought it brand new, I would not feel like I would be taking a hit if I was tripling my original cost.
But that's just me.

#168 9 years ago
Quoted from Redeyes:

I was told once that the sky is the limit for a price on a HUO MM anywhere from 15-18k if you want to define "sky" or whatever some collector is willing to pay. So if you now value them around 11-12k or at least offering that you may feel that they took a 5k hit cause of the remake?

I definitely think the remake gave them a hit but I think the the hobby as a whole is trending down. Its not just MM...

What I am willing to pay doesn't mean that is what they are worth... it simply means that's what I am willing to pay. Some will pay more some will pay less just like every other title.

Quoted from Redeyes:

As a collector I value the original much more, thats just me though. TO have the WMS logos and know it was actually built almost 20 years ago and is still in great shape means alot. Its like owning a time capsule into the past which is what most collectors are seeking.

I feel the same way and that is why I am willing to pay 2-3k over a NIB remake. Whether that's enough remains to be seen but that's where I'm at...

#169 9 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

I'm not big on LEDs, but those purple accents really look nice!

I was thinking the exact opposite. I generally like LEDs but MM just doesn't look right with them. I will add that I'm not a fan of the rainbow GI look. I like all white whether it's LEDs or not.

#170 9 years ago
Quoted from Redeyes:

TO have the WMS logos and know it was actually built almost 20 years ago and is still in great shape means alot.

I barely have time to look up at the DMD during game play let alone the WMS logo beneath it. Chances are your original MM was probably built by the same people who are building news Sterns and maybe even MMR

It boiled down to the famous idiom "better the devil you know (than the devil you don't)". I would rather deal with older board sets which can usually be repaired, "bullet proofed" with "mods" or easily replaced with a Rottendog if it is a complete basket case. If an insert goes out (yes I know MMR has a 3 surface mount LED design to account for this) or I don't like a particular color I can order something different from Cointaker, Cometpinball or Pinballbulbs. I see long term value in these things for all my games especially if MM is a keeper for me.

Instead of looking at the "sky" or top end of what an original HUO MM would have gone for before MMR was announced, I looked at how much I would stand to lose if I found out later MM wasn't really for me. It happens and there have been games that I loved playing in other people's collections but once I got my very own I hated it. My purchase also had nothing to do with resale or being able to flip this to a collector with more money then brains down the road. I figure worse case there is always going to be a collector who does see "value" in owning an original HUO MM vs NIB MMR at the same of $10k. Keep in mind by "value" I don't mean MM >>> MMR but for similar reasons listed in the previous paragraph. If a huge chunk of my whole collection consisted of PPS remakes in the future then I would probably have a different outlook but the chances of them remaking some of my personal favorites such as Congo or Johnny Mnemonic are nil

#171 9 years ago
Quoted from mwong168:

I just picked up a very nice HUO MM from a local collector 2 days ago

Care to share what you paid or the trade value associated with it?

#172 9 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

Care to share what you paid or the trade value associated with it?

$18k > my MM > MMR

#173 9 years ago
Quoted from mwong168:

$18k > my MM > MMR

So...$17999?

-1
#174 9 years ago
Quoted from mwong168:

$18k > my MM > MMR

Good lord stop being a tease. You post your pics, tell your story, offer your opinions, and don't tell us the price? This alone means the MM market is reeling. Mmr will put it - and us- out of our misery..

-1
#175 9 years ago

More like $9k.

#176 9 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I am guessing it is only up from here. Original MM already took and price dip up to this point. Only 1 way to go from here for high quality good condition examples.

I'm not sure what will happen to the price once the HUO MMr's start hitting the secondary market. 8k is a lot to have tied up in a game, some people may feel MM (in general, not the remake specifically) wasn't what it was cracked up to be and put their MMr on the market.

#178 9 years ago

Going to be a lot of MMs new and old for sale.

#179 9 years ago

Well goodluck on your search hope you do find one for price point! Always good to see you at te shows! Don't forget to check estate sales from time to time that's how I found mine two years ago.

#180 9 years ago
Quoted from Redeyes:

Well goodluck on your search hope you do find one for price point! Always good to see you at te shows! Don't forget to check estate sales from time to time that's how I found mine two years ago.

Thanks, we'll see what happens. I know they are out there and in places you don't always think of… just like your nice find! Great to see you at the shows as well!

#181 9 years ago

And not to hijack the thread, but I am interested in a HUO MMr for 5k PLUS if anyone is selling.. thanks!

-1
#182 9 years ago
Quoted from JoeJet:

And not to hijack the thread, but I am interested in a HUO MM for 5k PLUS if anyone is selling.. thanks!

Fixed it. Give it 6 months!

#183 9 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

I'm not sure what will happen to the price once the HUO MMr's start hitting the secondary market.

I'm wondering what will happen to the MMr prices after opening the box. After this first batch of 1000 they will be making unlimited runs of the standard.

Kim

LOL. Edit it back

#184 9 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I'm wondering what will happen to the MMr prices after opening the box. After this first batch of 1000 they will be making unlimited runs of the standard.
Kim

There will be unlimited potential runs but not unlimited demand. We may be looking at 2,000 total machines?

One way to get more sales would be if Rick or someone could figure out a way to do a revenue share with the rout operators as a partial financing option. That thought might be worthy of its own topic. I will start one.

#185 9 years ago

Before Nucore whole, working, pin2k computers ran upwards of $2400. After nucore was announced that price dropped to around $900. A year or so after Nucore was on the market you could buy a computer for ~$500 and possibly a little bit less.

I would suggest if you were holding a MM because of it's value that value will fall significantly. Now, that's assuming the MMR is near as good or better than a MM. So, if you want to maximize profit sell now. If you have a nice machine you'll always love keep it.

#186 9 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

So, if you want to maximize profit sell now.

If you wanted to maximize profit you should of sold 8 months ago! It is what it is, I lose my ass way worse on all my other hobbies and besides that.... pinball puts me in my happy place.

#187 9 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

There will be unlimited potential runs but not unlimited demand. We may be looking at 2,000 total machines?

I'm also wondering the effect if they did another run a couple of years down the road ala Iron Man VE. If the demand is there they can and will make them.

Kim

#188 9 years ago

Well, so far we don't have any recent confirmed reports of a CQ MM sale here, so we don't know what the market value is. Given Tony's previous comments we have to assume a floor at $11k-$12k, but until something actually sells at that level it may be more like $15k.

I'm sure there are a number of folks that have high end restorations and have $14-$18+ in them - can't imagine any would be interested to sell at $10-$12.

If MMR is a home run, MM prices will take a hit (but I don't see anything but beaters dropping further).
If it isn't, then we'll see VG to CQ MM prices rise.

#189 9 years ago

be interesting to see what the CQ MMr pins will fetch over the next few years, cliffy/mantis protectors installed and the ever popular shipping mod could see values rocket?

Time will tell.

#190 9 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

If MMR is a home run, MM prices will take a hit (but I don't see anything but beaters dropping further).
If it isn't, then we'll see VG to CQ MM prices rise.

In my personal view, if MMr is a flop it will negatively impact the once untouchable perception of MM in general. Those who shelled out 8k for MMr won't just feel negatively about MMr, they will feel negatively about MM overall. That is one of the unfortunate possible results we face.

#191 9 years ago

What about those that already feel negatively about MM?

Disclaimer: This in no way shape or form, directly reflects the opinions of said poster of this comment. The postee reserves all rights and claims that MM is way overpriced in due respect to performing gameplay. Also, M&M and mars inc, is in no way responsible for the remake of MM.

#192 9 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

Well, so far we don't have any recent confirmed reports of a CQ MM sale here, so we don't know what the market value is. Given Tony's previous comments we have to assume a floor at $11k-$12k, but until something actually sells at that level it may be more like $15k.
I'm sure there are a number of folks that have high end restorations and have $14-$18+ in them - can't imagine any would be interested to sell at $10-$12.
If MMR is a home run, MM prices will take a hit (but I don't see anything but beaters dropping further).
If it isn't, then we'll see VG to CQ MM prices rise.

Well, I am only one buyer here… how many others right now are looking for high end MM in the 10k-12k range? We know there are plenty of high end MM's out there either HUO or restored but the only way to get a true value for them is to have actual buyers willing to spend the money for them… I am one but I don't know of anyone else looking to spend big bucks so who knows.

I think the value of the high end MM's has dropped but not as bad as some think. I think what MMr did more than anything to the higher end MM's was it eliminated many potential buyers. Value is still decent but the potential buyers willing to pay for these pins has diminished quite a bit.

Maybe its all just a waiting game… wait to see MMr and then decisions will be made.

#193 9 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

Well, so far we don't have any recent confirmed reports of a CQ MM sale here, so we don't know what the market value is. Given Tony's previous comments we have to assume a floor at $11k-$12k, but until something actually sells at that level it may be more like $15k.
I'm sure there are a number of folks that have high end restorations and have $14-$18+ in them - can't imagine any would be interested to sell at $10-$12.
If MMR is a home run, MM prices will take a hit (but I don't see anything but beaters dropping further).
If it isn't, then we'll see VG to CQ MM prices rise.

If Mwong68 comes clean we'll know something.

#194 9 years ago
Quoted from teekee:

I definitely think the remake gave them a hit but I think the the hobby as a whole is trending down. Its not just MM...

What I am willing to pay doesn't mean that is what they are worth... it simply means that's what I am willing to pay. Some will pay more some will pay less just like every other title.

Like trying to catch a falling knife…..

#195 9 years ago
Quoted from teekee:

Well, I am only one buyer here… how many others right now are looking for high end MM in the 10k-12k range? We know there are plenty of high end MM's out there either HUO or restored but the only way to get a true value for them is to have actual buyers willing to spend the money for them.

I suspect the issue isn't so much people willing to buy in that range -- it's finding people willing to sell in it. I suspect most that have restored games have way more into their game (and really like the game), so it's going to take more to pry it away.

I'll bet if I offered my game for $11-12k, I'd have a handful of potential buyers within a week.

As far as "plenty" out there - maybe a couple dozen high end restores. Truly pristine HUO? I'll bet single digits.

#196 9 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

I suspect the issue isn't so much people willing to buy in that range -- it's finding people willing to sell in it. I suspect most that have restored games have way more into their game (and really like the game), so it's going to take more to pry it away.
I'll bet if I offered my game for $11-12k, I'd have a handful of potential buyers within a week.
As far as "plenty" out there - maybe a couple dozen high end restores. Truly pristine HUO? I'll bet single digits.

Plenty to discuss and wonder about... who really knows. One thing I would disagree with you on... I am positive there are a lot more than a couple dozen high end restores out there. I figure Chris (HEP) himself probably has done a couple dozen himself. And then there is McCune, Kelly, Keller, TC, etc. Probably more like a couple hundred. HUO like yours is rarer but probably still 75-100 or more of those still around.

#197 9 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

In my personal view, if MMr is a flop it will negatively impact the once untouchable perception of MM in general. Those who shelled out 8k for MMr won't just feel negatively about MMr, they will feel negatively about MM overall. That is one of the unfortunate possible results we face.

The chances of this happening are very low. How many people who are buying MMr have never played MM? Not many. I'd bet that the vast majority of MMr buyers are already pretty familiar with MM and they know exactly what they are getting.

#198 9 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

The chances of this happening are very low. How many people who are buying MMr have never played MM? Not many. I'd bet that the vast majority of MMr buyers are already pretty familiar with MM

Totally agree…

Quoted from RobT:

they know exactly what they are getting.

Not sure if I totally agree here… more like "they THINK (and hope) they know exactly what they are getting"

#199 9 years ago
Quoted from teekee:

I've been saying all along that original nice MM's or nicely restored ones have not and will not be hurt much by MMr. Looks like I was right. But did anyone know for sure until now?

I don't think you were right. I think this thread is proving original nice MM's or nicely restored ones HAVE been affected by MMr. I am just one example, but I was close to pulling the trigger on a nice original for $12k before MMr. I decided to save $4k and buy NIB MMr.

The reason you aren't going to find one at your $10k plus price (which appears to cap at $11k) is because people have $15k+ into their professionally restored pins and aren't willing to take a $4k - $5k hit to sell them.

When they do need to sell and don't have takers at $15k, the prices will drop. Maybe you can get one then. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen many (if any) sell in the $15k price range since MMr was anmnounced. If nothing else, MANY more sold in the $12k - $15k+ price range before MMr as opposed to after.

#200 9 years ago
Quoted from Chippewa-Pin:

I don't think you were right. I think this thread is proving original nice MM's or nicely restored ones HAVE been affected by MMr. I am just one example, but I was close to pulling the trigger on a nice original for $12k before MMr. I decided to save $4k and buy NIB MMr.
The reason you aren't going to find one at your $10k plus price (which appears to cap at $11k) is because people have $15k+ into their professionally restored pins and aren't willing to take a $4k - $5k hit to sell them.
When they do need to sell and don't have takers at $15k, the prices will drop. Maybe you can get one then. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen many (if any) sell in the $15k price range since MMr was anmnounced. If nothing else, MANY more sold in the $12k - $15k+ price range before MMr as opposed to after.

There's no doubt some won't sell because they would be losing plenty but jfh has less than 4k in his MM and he's not selling. I'm sure he's not the only one. It's a mixture I'm sure.

One thing we have to remember is that Pinside is a just a small piece of the pinball puzzle. There is a lot that happens outside of Pinside that we never hear about.

I capped my offer at 11k for jfh's MM but 11k is not my cap for this thread... A fresh HEP restore within in the last couple years especially with some nice mods would get me to 12k plus...

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