Wrath of Olympus
Riot Pinball, 2015You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider whysnow.
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This is AWESOME!!!
I am sorry if I missed it, but had a few questions.
Where did you get your PF, plastics, and ramps made? Do you have details on the physical construction of those parts?
I am assuming everything else are standard mechs from other games that you used?
I ask because someday in the distant future I will be building my own game.
I can't believe I did not really dig in to this thread till now!!!
Thanks for the info. I need to start looking into P-roc stuff, but it honestly scares the crap out of me. Programming is the scary part to me at this point!!!
I already have the theme and have started writing the ruleset. I have a rough playfield idea and plan to start using Nordman core (foam core poster board) to start mocking some stuff up in the next year. I have honestly been hoping that new products will come out to some how magically make the programming capable of a dummy 
I know it is not going to happen and I just need to dive in and face my fears.
I guess one important question, what would you have done differently from the start up to this point if you could start over from square one?
WOOLY was the HIGHLIGHT of expo this year!
Scott is super nice, the game is amazing at this stage and will get polished over time. I am in for #5!!! He was starting a list to see if there was interest and hands down this game layout and shots (even with purposefully powered down flippers) was A M A Z I N G !!!!!
If anyone has not made it over to play, DO IT TODAY! SIgn Up now!
WOW is all I can say.
My advice to Scott >> don't start thinking about production at this stage. Keep your focus on this being YOUR 1 of a kind game and polish it to glory before putting any effort to production. We have all seen the error of ways of other boutique pin manufacturers trying to jump on turning their passion into a money making business too early.
Keep a list of names, but other than that just keep on plugging along on getting things all polished to a 'final' product before shifting gears to a production model. As you said, you have the advantage on development to be a 1 man operation for the decision making. Please dont loose that focus by stealing your own time to work on business side crap. WOOLY has the potential to be one of the best games to come to life in forever! Truly amazing game!
When can I expect delivery????!!!!!????!!!!!
I am loving this game more and more!
Please bring it to MGC!
Quoted from luvthatapex2:If you are interested in seeing and playing this at the Allentown Show in May, contact Scott at the address above.
Would rather see it at MGC in April!
ouch, very bummed at no MGC, but totally understand the decision if this is going to full production and the need to get more new people to see it.
Any chance I can convince you to drive down for MadRollinPinball in Madison in Sept to show the game off for the weekend? I would pay for your hotel or you can crash at my place. It would also provide the ability to stress test the new proto prior to expo 
Since we are giving out suggestions >> Scott, the game looks amazing. I think that since this is still a 1 off, 1 of a kind intended to make your dream come true, just build what YOU want and make it how YOU envisioned.
IF, and that is a big IF, you ever decide to actually produce this game in a larger quantity then still hold true to your vision while fielding the suggestions you see fit for tweaks.
Looking great! Any thoughts on switching over to the BenHeck board prior to production?
I have no idea how that would impact coding, but I do know the board appeared well thought out and was very fairly priced.
Quoted from T-800:Next stop - the second, new and improved WOOLY prototype at the Chicago Pinball Expo in October! Hope to see you there.
Still not able to get you to come to Madison the weekend of Sept 13 for the big local charity event? 
Quoted from T-800:Working on it... unfortunately those weekends are typically spent in the north woods hunting, fishing, and clearing the clutter from the brain for a while. Will also depend on the status of WOOLY2. Not sure when you need an official yes from, but I won't really know that until more like August....
August would be fine for a commitiment. Glad to hear there is a chance! Fingers crossed it can happen.
We pride ourselves on hvaing unique and new/different games for MRP. It is a really different sort of event and typically has some cool oddball games along with a GREAT group of people. It is also means you get to play in the event along with everyone else.
great!!!
Any idea when your seminar will be at Expo?
Also, any chance I can twist your arm to make it to MRP now that #2 is alive?
Quoted from T-800:For those on the "WOOLY" interested list, watch your email closely next week - a more thorough update with more exciting news is coming your way, along with more details on the deep rule set we have in this machine.
Hope this email is telling me you are going to go into production, have a price in mind that my pocketbook can handle, and that you are ready to sart building my own personal WOOLY.
Quoted from wcbrandes:right behind mine!
I think you have that backwards... don't worry, you can't be right all the time.
I am looking forward to getting home and watching this video!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get your orders in folks!!!!!!!!! Let's get this thing built. I actually think that after Expo and people get to actually experience the game you may need to have your dollars in sooner rather than later.
The limit of 250 is great for those of us that enjoy owning something rare.
great new video!
I would like to see the release from pandora be just slightly quicker. Bam Bam Bam! Just enough time to launch and load for the next shot. I love a frantic MB start that engrosses you in the game. Frank > need to build up some more POWER with this multiball unleashing. (Think Adams or now Klingon form starTrek where the tunes and light syncs and raw adrenaline gets you pumping!.)
BUMP!
Less talking and more buying folks . WE need to get this to 100 sold and the clock is ticking. Seriously, reach out to loaded pinheads you know and turn them on to this project. The game speaks for itself but goven the current situation we are going to have to help get the word out to non-Pinsiders so they know about the game and see the value of getting in and ensuring it gets built.
It will be a atrocity if WOOLY never comes to life!!!
Quoted from epthegeek:I'm sure Scott could build a smaller number (if he was willing), they'd just have to cost a lot more money.
I am not sure about others but the current price is all my pocketbook can handle and it will be PB&J for a while already
WOOLY really is such an amazing game and the continual improvements and willingness to take in, digest, and update based on feedback is phenomenal!
I am pumped to see how the mini-modes they have announced will some along after games are produced.
Honestly, their commitment and willingness (heck even excitement) to be able to get this game into the hands of owners so they can get more solid and educated feedback and then further improve is very exciting to me!
I still am more than willing to help out in anyway. Maybe we can get Ben and Scott to fly down to TPF and I will drive down both games so they can show them off. As I have said, I have been looking for an excuse to got to TPF and this woudl be a good one.
I am not fan of the current placeholder music (not a metal/ heavy guy but do like the tool? placeholder) either but it is just a placeholder. I think the custom music will be cool and best part is that even if I don't personally like it then it will be easily customizable.
I am also looking forward to the professional voice work.
I am not concerned about support at all. With the Riot guys personalities, Spooky doing the build, using the commonly and greatly utilized Proc platform, and the fact that most parts are just regular pinball parts I don't see a reason for support to be an issue.
I would hope/assume that things like extra plastic sets and ramps (i.e. game specific and breakables) would be available for cheap/cost to all purchasers to buy uin duplicate if they so choose.
I would suggest contacting Scott or Frank if you are on the fence. They won't be trying to sell you on the game but they have been more than happy to candidly answer all my questions. Meeting them alone got me over the hump to lay down a deposit for what is by far the most money I will ever spend on a pinball.
Suggestion >>
If not already, I would like this coded for easy acceptance/wire up of a bill acceptor and a variety of pricing options.
Yes, I am crazy enough to put this on route as soon as I get it. Partly because I like sharing pinball and partly because I am getting #2 off the line and would like to provide an option for others to see/play the game to help our Riot with more sales post production.
What about > mini-mode of instant 3 ball multiball, no ball save and after 2minutes the flippers go dead. Standups worth X, ramps worth X, combos worth x. All shots lit to start and the goal is to collect as many points as possible in the 2minutes allowed but hitting shots to turn them off. Point awards are all low value and rick based on the physical shot alone. Final scores for 2 player games would be like 72 to 58. Quick, clean, and straight forward for a tournament mini-game use.
Maybe also 2 way or more combos will add more time to flippers?
mini modes could be super fun and add a whole new layer to this project.
Quoted from Cheeks:Just based on how fun they were to shoot, WOOLY was the best game at expo bar none.
quoted for truth. I felt bad for all the silly (to me) people waiting in line to play TBL when WOOLY was by far the jewel of the entire show. They only benefir was that I got lots of games on WOOLY and was also able to find old friends and bring them over to play a few games on it.
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:If it was around 6'ish I could buy one too, but at 8'ish, just not in the budget. Unfortunately, I want one, bad.
Quoted from lordloss:It certainly is a pin with potential, too bad I dont' go to expos otherwise i'd love to try it out.
It may be now or never boys. 1k now from each gets it 2 closer to the needed 100 by Jan 2015.
You have a little time to come up with the other 3500 and then not another penny till your game is ready.
Just sayin... only 1k to get in at this point and the sooner you get in the sooner you are in line to get your game made
where is MOF?
I thought for sure by now he would have seen that the right orbit return has been tweaked!
SWEET!!! Really love how it returns different, yet consistent depending on the speed of the ball.
Anyone paying attention can tell you guys are really listening to your customers/potential customers, filtering through, and making good changes!
I am super impressed and continue to be so with your attitude and responsiveness on this project.
Quoted from mof:I'm right over here.
-mof
do you like the new orbit return? I am really digging it! Less ticky tacky and way more intentional feel to it now!
Anyone thinking about it or on the fence, please plunk down a 1k deposit. If 100 don't get in then there is no "can't wait till it comes out"
This game NEEDS to get made and I fear that all the ill effects of other starups have damaged the chances of what IMHO is one of the best games to come on the scene for decades!
Quoted from TaTa:just too hard to resist... I'm in!
Awesome. Rule #1 is you need to find 2 others and convince them to also get in
They of course need to find 2 more and before you know it we are at 100 and all stoked!
Quoted from Aurich:When did this thread start becoming a place to take shots at TBL? Whysnow started it long before the drama, and it's frankly really off putting.
If you guys think it's helping WOOLY look good then think again.
I did not start this thread, but am still a huge supporter of what I think is the best pinball to come out in a long time. What is wrong with being positive about a game like WOOLY?
Great guys, great theme, and super fun game. I find it sad that some people want to hate on everything and the people that are trying to create new pinball.
Quoted from Aurich:Nothing. It's when you do it with snarky comments about how everyone who was waiting in line for TBL was wasting their time that it's really unappealing.
You really don't want to start turning this into a comparison thread, so stick with being positive and leave other games out of it is my suggestion. That goes for everyone else, if you're truly interested in building support.
Just my two cents, ignore if you like.
This is the only comment I have made in any way
Quoted from Whysnow:I felt bad for all the silly (to me) people waiting in line to play TBL when WOOLY was by far the jewel of the entire show.
Pretty sure I used enough verbiage to denote that it was my opinion. Sorry poeple are so butthurt over what is going on with DP right now. By and large I have been nothing but positive about the things I enjoy about WOOLY.
fingers crossed for you Scott. If anyone deserves the chance to build a game that you have put so much time into developing, it it you!
If you don't make it to the "go point" then I hope you reach out to those on the "go" list to see if there is a different way to get this done.
I know I would invest in the company in some form just to get the first 100 made if it meant a possible return on the back end.
The game at expo was already about 90% of what you are asking for Aurich. Did you see it? or play it?
I think if anything the game is more polished now and that a trip to TPF may be enough to complete the remainer of the 100 crowd funded preorders?
The opportunity for others to touch and play the game and meet Scott/Frank is huge IMO.
Quoted from Aurich:And then the project is greenlit, he goes to cash the checks, and a bunch of them bounce ...
yup, I am guessing they also want a reasonable commitment from their customers. An unchashed check is a pretty hollow commitment. 1k out of your pocket tells them you are in and unlikely to bail when the next installment is due so they can buy parts. Just my guess.
Quoted from vilant:On another note, if you could change the music to what you desire, imagine if you could change the call outs and voices too. Riot Pinball couldn't sell Ralph Fiennes voice as Hades or Liam Neeson as Zues without their permission. But the owner could buy certain DVD'S and isolate sound bytes and save them to his computer, then download them to his machine. Would be damn cool to have their voices in there and you could pull their voices from movies other than Clash and Wrath of the Titans too. Or I could do my own voices through a synth, save and download. Just some food for thought.
This is one of the things I am very excited about. I am guessing I will like whatever sounds and call-outs they end up using, but it will be pretty cool to customize and insert my own call outs >> things like me immitating my best gravelly ritchie voice "Play Better!"
Quoted from KingPinGames:what's a Paly?
just messing with you this morning.
my dyslexic twin brother who can't type
If you don't trust enough to put down a 1k deposit, then I would suggest paying via your credit card via paypal. You then are protected in other ways. That said, preordering ANY new pinball machine from a start up requires a large amount of turst and patience so I would advise that it may not be the best decision if you don't have both these off the bat.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:...but he was still allowed to play pinball, right? Just wanted to make sure he wasn't in hell.
of course but every time he was going to get a new high score the game would reset
Quoted from Asylum:Agree.. and its because of Scott's continued updates I've just pulled the trigger and joined the list!
It really is impressive how Scott is so receptive and his ability to even deal with tough questions or obvious trolls.
A big part of the reason I have confidence in the team assembled.
And THAT is why you have my 100% support and I am putting money in to get a game!
I love the game, but more than anything I support the idea of what this is!
I am hoping RIOT has come up with a way to push onward even if they do not have the required 100 orders by the end of the year.
I personally would 'invest' and buy a second game IF the production limit was reduced to 100 games.
I believe enough in the company that I would find a way to scrap together the funds for 2 games, knowing that with a limit of 100 I could sell the second one for enough to recoup my investment plus some.
I don't care to 'invest' in pinball but this may be a way to generate the required startup funds to get the game built. Granted that also means you are limiting the number produced and potential long term return for Riot, but if this is really a go or no go sort of situation then I have to guess a good chuck of the original 50 that have ordered are wanting this game enough to take on an additional 8k investment/risk??? Limit it to 100 total and I am in to do something like this.
Quoted from jlm33:I wish I could too, but I can't afford a second one!
In any case, any mean / solution to reach the goal is welcome.
I figure the initial out of pocket cost would be pretty similar.
I am getting production game #2 to be made and assuming I commit to a second it would be game #51 (or whatever). I would need to have 9k in by mid-Feb and then pay off #2 when ready.
Assuming I could turn around and sell #2 shorthy after I get it for a decent profit, it would actually mean that my game #51 would cost me less out of pocket and I would just have to float a couple of grand for a few months.
Quoted from foxtj24:Is the project dead if he does not get 49 more orders today? I could be persuaded to buy one. But no bother if this is dead in 8 hours.
Hoping we find out soon. My gut tells me that with continueed work on stuff that where there is a will there is a way.
That said, I am hoping there is also some sort of added perk for those of us that got in and committed to being part of this before 2014 ends.
in other words>> email scott and talk to him. He will tell you straight like he always does.
iIof course vote to get in NOW as EVERY one closer will help them to make a decision on what to do!
Welcome to 2015.
Scott and Frank, please contact me and TAKE MY MONEY!!!
(i.e. tell me it is a go so I have to scramble to find more funds for the second amount)
great episode. I am always amazed at what at professional you are Scott and how you handle all the adversity of the current start up pinball world.
Quoted from RobT:The year is less than a day old. Lol
I can be declared the winner twice in one day buddy! Just let me have this moment.
Quoted from Willathrilla:If the production gets limited to 100, or less, I'll be in.
I will be in for a second one immediately if the production is limited to 100, even 125 and it would be limited enough to make me feel comfortable backing the second purchase as an investment.
Granted I don't want the game to me more limited than it already is. I just want it to get made by any means needed.
Quoted from Eskaybee:1. Price is more than a stern LE.
2. Lots of unknowns still. What will the music sound like? How about the final call outs? More importantly, when will we see games produced. I know they're viewing Q3 for production, but a lot of third party pin manufacturers have failed making their dates (DP, MMR, Heighway, etc...) what makes riot pinball different?
1. By Q4 2015 I was told to expect SternLE to cost more than this
2. I to an concerned about tunes and callouts but from what they have done with everything else in the game, I figure they deserve the trust that they will pull through in tunes department as well. They have committed to hiring professional voice people. Even if the tunes or callouts are not to my liking they will be modifiable so I can make them to my liking and I am sure sound guys that really knoe their stuff will be ripping stuff from other sources and making some cool stuff that even a doof like me can insert. For production dates, Spooky has proven themselves and they trust in Riot which is all I need. I personally expect things may take slightly longer for the first few to come off the line than early Q4, but they will not be far behind and will be at a steady pace once they do.
For cost, this is like paying less than a Pro model now ($4500 total by mid feb) so they can go tool up and buy actual parts for your game and then the remaining $3500 when your game is ready in 1 year (give or take depending on where you are in production).
If you listened to the podcast then you know the deal >>> contact Scott. Give him a call or email and see when can be done for you to work out the logistics.
Quoted from angus:Without any slippage it could easily be 20 months before you see your game. Long time to wait with a $4500 deposit. But it is a great looking game. I'm still interested, but not to tie up my money for that long.
That is a VERY misleading estimate. If you listen to the podcast you would have more knowledge and be able to get a better idea of reality.
Right now it sounds like just shy of 50 ordered. If you got in now that means 25 weeks to get your game built (this assumes worst case of spooky still only building 2 per week and you are #50). That is 6 months.
I really do not understand why people can't do simple math or are trying to make it sound worse than reality.
The goal is 100 committed to make the project a go. The first 100 should get built in under 12 months from start of production if they do 2 per week after they get rolling. If they end up doing more than 2 per week (listen to the podcast for more info) then it will take even less time.
Quoted from rai:Why?
Because you can play a Stern LE today.
This game is a vapor at this time, people have paid for JPop games and PPS games and JJP games and DP games without having anything to play. But Stern is not just selling games they are shipping games.
Have you listened to the podcast? Seems to me like it is a poor comparison to look at Riot and Spooky compared to many of the other you have listed.
I guess you are assuming you are the last game built?
Put down a deposit now and you will be around #50. That is ~6months build time.
~half paid in now and the rest when your game is ready.
Quoted from Tangiers:One thing that is unclear to me is when assembly of the machines would actually start. I know that they could start running the playfields and getting the plastics ready as soon as the 100 are ordered but would assembly wait until all of the AMH backlog is completed, or would it be run by new workers at the same time?
It is still very tempting to me to get in on this but the waiting game is very tough on me.
listen to the podcast
Quoted from FatAussieBogan:Is it permissible to post the said email here for all and sundry?
I am guessing that if Scott wants to post then he will do so and out of respect for RIOT I see no need to post publicly.
Quoted from jwilson:It's not easy to get that money, but it's as simple as what I said.
The days of pre-orders are over. Back to the old-fashioned method of making something *then* selling it.
then I would say welcome to a world with VERY limited new pinball, and all the stuff that so many people complain about each day from the #1 maker...
If 400-700 people are willing to buy the next stupid Stern fake LE but 100 are not willing to stand behind something that offers what we all claim to want (custom, real limited edition, FULLY coded, custom hand drawn art, real voice actors, quality built...) then I don't see many other options on the horizon.
Sad to me that a few crappy business have sucked the air out of the pre-order because you actually back something desire. Understandable but sad.
I just want to point out that 4500 in on WOOLY now and IF it had gotten made I can assure you that you would have had a 100% codded and fully playing game quicker than if you bought WWEle for 8k right now.
That WWEle will be ATLEAST a year before you see even remotely finished code. If you are cool with that, then great. Keep in mind the code may never get done and no promise to you from Stern and no added coding on top like thee guys were doing already (mini-games, etc...) I am not cool with the Stern model and wanted to vote with my dollars against it and for something that was the alternative.
I completely understand why some of you did not get in on WOOLY, but I don't want to hear the no code complaints from you when you are still choosing to give more money to Stern for fake LEs with feature sitting idle.
Quoted from Rarehero:If I'm spending $8k on a game, I want a complete designed experience. I don't want to have to go hire voice actors to record better voices or a composer for better music. If the game didn't spend any design budget on sound/music, even more reason $8k is a terrible price for the game.
Sorry but you are completely ignorant yet again.
You obviously have not given any attention to this game otherwise you would have known what was covered multiple times about the ongoing efforts and professional voice work/ music that was already slated for the game.
We are all now stupider for having read your posts as it is obvious you are just trolling for reactions.
Quoted from Rarehero:First of all, enough with the "Fake LE". Makes no sense. Stern makes a specific number of LEs and has never remade one. A Stern LE is an LE.
Second - One has nothing to do with the other. Buying WOOLY doesn't affect Stern in any way. You're not sticking it to them. You weren't going to buy a Stern game anyway.
Third - I don't think many here are buying WWE...so....yeah. lol
799 is less limited than the pro # for many titles so LE is really fake and all about them controlling your perception. They call it limited and you bite. Nothing is limited with stern! They have made that clear. Even IF they never vault a LE, the LEs are less limited then most other versions.
Second > without WOOLY happening you can take a wild guess where my money is now going. Your assumptions are wildy wrong yet again.
Third > yup, still wrong.
The current equation did not work but I feel confident that we will see a new equation that does work.
Scott and Frank >> Remember that there is a huge group of supporters behind you (even those that did not buy in the first round) that would liek to see this get done. Even those that have been against some parts have fully said if the game was done and availble now then they would likely buy! That is a testament to how great the game is!
lordloss > Where are you starting the bidding? If proto #2 is for sale I think you will have competition. I also would like to have it and put on route for others to see. I wonder if there is some way to get a rotation among towns and let WOOLY #2 played and seen by more people? Even if just in the midwest. The game definately NEEDS to be at MGC!
I just wanted to say for those wondering I got my deposit refund in under 24hr from the "no go" announcement and I assume other have also (unless they requested paper check which obviously takes some time to mail out).
Just important to show how on top of it these guys are, even when it comes to shattered dreams and needing to refund money along with those shattered dreams of supporters.
Quoted from lordloss:Sell me PF, backglass, ramps, and any other game specific parts and give me the BOM for the rest of the pinball parts and let me go to town building it myself.
I am not sure if you understand that those are all the parts that were the reason they needed 100 preorders and the cost was what it is?
Go try and price out the cost to get a custom mold for the ramps made and then to actually make the crystal clear ramps. I think there is a good reason you don't see AMH (or any small run game) with clear ramps. I don't think a small run heath kit option is any more feasible based on cost cutting cause those are the expensive parts. Labor to assemble was one of the cheaper things and lower obstacle in a project like this is my guess.
Quoted from Aurich:I'm going to just exit this conversation before whysnow's little childish downvotes make me stop being polite out of deference to the hard work that Scott has put into his game.
Good luck Riot, hope you're able to make your dream work out for everyone.
thumbs up and down are just a way of saying you agree or disagree with someone without posting things like +1.
While I respect your artistic eye and opinion, I do not agree with much of what you say on this subject. I also find that you are quite critical with not much constructive feedback (or it is unreasonable IMO to expect some things for a small start up that bigger companies could provide) and saying things were not polished is something I disagree with. No reason to make a personal attack Aurich and call my thumbs down childish.
Quoted from vilant:All I can tell you is, its 2am and I just got back from the bar. I would gladly give Riot $8k for a WOOLY. Is it worth more or less?I don't care. If it goes down in price, so be it. I want it anyway. So Scott, please make it for me.
I feel the same way, very often!
more importantly, any update on how/when this will go to production!
I am still pissed that I got my money back
Quoted from Snowhyt:I'm thinking the price will have to drop before production starts. Lots of other games with a better price point.
still amazed that the mods allow your obvious troll account to exist.
Do you ever contribute something positive to the hobby?
WHEN and WHERE can I play this next?
Are you guys coming to MGC?
You can cuddle up with me if you need a place to crash Frank
I do have to laugh how recently everyone thinks they are an expert on the BOM for this game or what is was missing in your opinion to make it happen.
I know we are all internet heros with IQs >140, but it is pretty silly to think any of us have a real clue about what the BOM for WOOLY is/was.
There are probably 10 people that can even come close and aside from Scott and Frank, even those guys could be wrong.
LMK when all of you go build a game and then want to share your hard numbers for BOM
Quoted from Aurich:If they could sell it for $6500 I think you'd see people line up. The price point is just tough.
For what I have a feeling they would need to cut in order to get the BOM low enough to make that worthwhile, I fear what would need to be changed ;(
Quoted from Rob_G:The game looks great! Although the mini playfield doesn't seem to 'shoot' well. Is it too wide and too short?
Rob
In person is plays really well. It is just difficult enough yet doable.
Very cool!
Love the idea of 2x possiblity after you hit it the first time.
Question > based on the physical nature of the game, is it more or less difficult to hit the shot a second time after hitting it the first?
This may impact the multiplier. Is 2x a good risk reward based on the physical nature of the game? How likley is it that I will be able to hit the shot multiple times in shot succession?
Just something to think about for continuing to balance scoring and coding risk/reward with physical reality and risk/reward of the game.
Looking good! as always!
Quoted from luvthatapex2:20 call outs were recorded to direct the player in various shots/features in the game
How much would it cost to record a heckling call out for the game?
I can do a great impersonation of Ben Heck impersonation of Steve Ritchie
Quoted from lordloss:This is good news as long as these pins make it out to events and such. Such a shame to lock these away
one of them will be at Mad Rollin Pinball later this month
Quoted from mof:This is the BEST pinball news of the year, I don't give a F*** who disagrees with me.
-mof
Let me know when you want to come visit and play buddy! Would love to hang with you and play some Wooly!
Since this is my first New game ever, I wondered if I should put it a box just so I can remove it
Quoted from pinballwil:you can always make 4 in a row.
unfortunately there are no longer enough off the shelf parts available anywhere to build more
Quoted from T-800:Q: Are you going to make any more?
A: It is not very likely that I will ever do a small run like this again (no parts), but that remains to be seen. It would be wonderful if a large company that knows how to manufacture pinballs decided to license the design from me and produce them on their own.
Quoted from lordloss:But... why won't anyone say what part is the one with only 4 left?
brass #6 3/8 hex heads...
bummer they are all gone
Quoted from Aurich:Why would Stern buy a game if they can't even get 100 people to commit to buying it?
Not a diss on WOOLY, just saying, they need to grow this themselves now, I can't see a company swooping in until they've done that.
God you are a complete j*****s sometimes. We all get it that you work for Heighway but for fuckssakes get over yourself and all your constant bashing on everything.
You are being purposefully dense on this with yet again trying to make it seem so simple so you can lobby your opinion. (Most of what you now write comes off as "nothing will be as cool as Alien") "Not a diss" ?!?? BS, It is directly a diss and intended to be inflammatory.
Reality is that originally there was a very short deadline to see how many people would commit in by Jan 1 2015 for a high price. This is NOT the reality of a company buying the license and mass producing. I am not sure what company would be the best fit to do something like this, but any company that did would likely have the ability to easily get the needed parts made for cheap, could decrease the BOM sizably given their knowledge and connections, and would be able to produce games. Asking 100 people to precommit and wait it out in the world of completely dead preorder model vs "does anyone want to buy a finished and ready game for X" are 2 VERY different things. If anything the number of those willing to precommit is a great indicator of how well this title could do if a company picked it up and just made it.
Quoted from Rarehero:probably cost about ~$6k from a trusted manufacturer
probably cost the same as other similar LE games. 8k+ is more realistic
Quoted from Rarehero:*development costs & cheaper BOM due to Stern's manufacturing infrastructure
I would hope they can make it cheaper. I am just guessing they could easily sell them at 8k. It seems there are lots of people interested in the botique run. If Stern can sell WNBJM for what they were then I think anything is possible. Heck, I would buy a Stern (or Spooky, or JJP, or ?) built Wooly for 8k without question.
Quoted from Rarehero:Riot couldn't sell WOOLY at $8k ...how could Stern?
Stern has the ability to have them ready for purchase 1 month after they announce and built by a proven company.
I am pretty sure that if Riot had 100 NIB Wooly at Expo last October all would have been sold for 10k without quesiton and gone in the first day.
Quoted from Rarehero:100 wouldn't buy it
If you look back, you are proven wrong. I think the tally was over 65 committed in 2.5 months with MANY more saying they would "buy now if ready for pick up" Getting 100 at 8k seemed pretty easy even in a post jpop/skitB world.
Quoted from Rarehero:Well, with those impressive numbers I'm sure a manufacturer will be banging their door down. Good luck to all involved !
double the number of WWE and WNBJM combined
Quoted from Aurich:God you are a complete j*****s sometimes.
don't you have some subcontracted artwork to get busy on?
Quoted from Rarehero:to an unlicensed title with a DMD designed/coded/built by newcomers with no factory.
well in reality it is probably the second most known 'unliscensed' title (unholly bible adventures being the better known stories). Greek mythos is about as good a story as you can find and anyone with half a decent school system growing up in the 70s-90s likely had some exposure to the theme.
As for coded and built by newcomers, many like myself actually are stoked to have the AWESOME new coding by Frank. The guy is a workhorse and has GREAT ideas! Built by newcomers is wrong also since Spooky was onbaord to do the build if the original plan to get 100 committed had worked out. Again >> If you actually go back and look MANY people were in if they could pay and pick up within 3 months. The price was a non-issue for many people.
Many people understood the fun and value of a WELL known theme where a designer was smart enough to latch on to something that did not require a license but most somewhat educated people are familiar with (he actually did it because he likes greek mythology is my understanding >> imagine that, a designer working on a title they are passionate about and it shows in the game!), a proven coder if you are paying attention and know how many things Frank has already coded and how much he knows about pinball rulesets, and the ability to support a start up manufacturer like Spooky.
For a good chunk of people the issue has always been the preorder model.
Smart money actually says this would be the perfect title for a company looking to fill production space or time to pick up and get made.
Maybe Heighway needs to fill time between FullT and Alien?
Maybe JJP needs a filler game between Woz and TH
Maybe Stern would like to make a real widebody for the first time in X? years and has found they need more stuff to keep the line running.
I have a good feeling if ANY of these companies showed up at expo with a preproduciton model and said they were selling a limited run of 250 Wooly for 8k where you pay and get your game within 3 months, the game would be sold out before the end of the weekend.
Quoted from Baiter:$8k WOOLY sells 250, $6500 WOOLY sells 500+, and $4500 WOOLY sells 1000+.
same could be said for the SternLE model
Quoted from pinballnut3:If you want to be original play "craft" pinball this is your game. If you want bud light....wwe anyone?
classic LOL
Quoted from kaneda:Guys indie pinball should be about exclusivity, rarity and uniqueness. And that should come with a price. Indie pinball is a labor of love. Asking Stern to step in is like asking Ford or General Motors to build my kit car for me. They clearly could have done this if they sourced parts more readily available. Nemo did it.
Stern isn't here to save the competition, they are here to bury it. It's business guys. This whole notion that all pinball is good pinball is not how stern feels. They love watching jpop and Kevin bomb, just means more money will go towards them. And they deserve it.
I don't think you get it. STERN is all about making money and this is the sort of thing that provides a unique opportunity to them.
The reality is that Stern is mainly employing old farts in the design world and at some point they need to think about what comes next if they are looking at the long game. They also are rehashing the same old stuff over and over and the games are perpetually not-coded up to snuff at release.
For a small fee I am guessing they could buy the rights to a game like this and hire Frank to recode under their boardset/ code foundation while they are busy making tweaks and parts needed for a build. This is not about crushing the competition as RIOT is NOT their competition and they have made it clear that unless the game is picked up their are no more parts to make even a small produciton run. This is all about some other smart manufacturing company deciding to pick this up and be able to physically make a run of 250 limited edition games which they could easily sell at standard LE pricing.
The game would ship out the door with finished code and playing like butter. Keep in mind that they are also likely able to shave a good chunk off the BOM. Heck, just using the Spike system in place of the PRoc is going to shave a bunch. Smart move for someone liek Stern/JJP/Heighway to pick up this game on contract and offer to provided a nominal per game liscencing fee to Riot. If anything, recent history has shown that any game in limited numbers will sell just fine even at a premium.
Quoted from rosh:I find this to be somewhat insulting, on several levels. First off, there are plenty of guys there I would not describe as old farts.
main designers at Stern are all old in relative terms. Steve, John T, Borg, Gomez. These guys are past the top of the hill.
Quoted from rosh:Secondly, you clearly don't appreciate the value of experience.
I completely value experience but also value the need for keeping it fresh. When ALL of your designers are very experienced it is time to bring in some fresh blood. You never know when one will quit or leave so best be prepared with some new ideas and new trained people ready to rock.
Quoted from rosh:Third, it is also insulting to imply that an older guy can't be innovative
Then Stern should prove they can still innovate in a good way. Aside from WWE I have seen very little real innovation in the design dept. Aside form that TWD is likely the most innovative for code/game play. The 'king' continues to rehash many of his same ideas and sometimes even just tweaks off existing hits (STTNG meet ST). Old has nothing to do with innovation, but at Stern the norm currently is guys with tons of years under their belt doing the same formula that has worked before. I will say that John T seems to have lots of great new ideas but many appear to be stiffled by the bean counters and he keeps getting turn titles to work with.
Quoted from rosh:As far as game not being totally coded at release
This is the single biggest complaint of Stern product and having them snatch up a completed game and retweaking to work in their world of produciton could be a great thing for them.
Quoted from rosh:And how much do you think Stern would be willing to pay? How much to you think Scott/Frank would find acceptable?
I have no idea but have to assume at minimum they woudl be happy to pay what they are saving in liscening fee from their normal stuff. The paid out the nose for Kiss. I am guessing it really all comes down to the final numbers and other values they get like keeping a second line running in between other games.
I have no idea what Scott/Frank would deem acceptable but I do know that they highly value the idea of getting their creation out into the hands of more people.
Quoted from rosh:there is a lot more complexity to this than some folks here want to recognize
no doubt about it, it is a VERY complex situation.
Reality is that unless someone buys the liscence and is willing to invest a little to make it happen, sadly I think it is unlikely we will see many more Woolys out there.
I have crunched lots of numbers myself and suffice to say that it is too bad pintasia did not talk to Scott instead of Jpop. This is a VERY feasible situation to bring a nice return for anyone looking to develop a game. I have put the word out to a few investors I know. Maybe someday one of them will decide to try and buy the liscence form Riot. The hurdles to overcome are relatively small at this starting point. I wish I had more money as I know I would be doing it myself! There is a real opportuntity for even a small run of 150-250 games to make a great return for someone that has the funds and interest to make it happen.
Quoted from epthegeek:Woo. That's a doozy. I can't see "small fee" and Frank re-writing the game in a new language on a new system going together at all.
Have you met Frank? I think the guy lives to code this game.
Quoted from Rarehero:I don't recall any interesting mechanical toys
then you were not paying much attention (obvious you have formed an opinion without playing the game much)
Quoted from inhomearcades:What is so innovative on WOOLY? (honestly please answer this question)
A short list off the top of my head >>
Best flow of any wide body ever!
2 spinners
Real drop target
RGB lights
Pop up below pf bash toy
REAL physical ball lock elevated in game
REAL miny upper pf that plays great and is very difficult
Subway
6 flippers EACH with multiple shots from them
Kickback
Great use of a single pop bumper to bring some randomness back to pinball
13x unique combo (I think it is a 13 way but honestly not 100%) shot
3 ramps
outlane nudgeback possibility
A shot that is down the pf and not up it (What? yes a cross shot form mid L flip to go around the pop bumper!)
Captive ball
Real handdrawn art (before Stern even decided to finally do this)
AMAZING code and now cool feature like ability to turn your game into a jukebox when in attract mode
Mini-mode capability so you can try out some of the deeper modes in the game (think LITZ type cheater w home rom style)
This things is stacked with amazing features and play stlye.
Toss on top a programmer that is literally going bonkers looking for what can be done to improve the game furhter.
AMAZING new soudtrack!
More call outs in the planning stage!
Any person claiming is is similar to a SternPro in build has not been paying attention or is just looking for a reaction.
Quoted from Volte6:Nobody is going to run out and build a Wrath of Olympus
That is not the concern.
The concern is now a more realistic world we live in where there are now people that will have complete games and may need duplicate of those parts if theirs ever break. There is absolutely zero advantage in telling anyone what those specific parts are.
The reason for telling others there were specific parts in limited qty was to help them understand WHY only 4 were built.
Quoted from Volte6:there are probably others who can learn from what you've done.
You can learn the same thing without knowing the exact parts. I will even tell you>>>
If you are going to build a custom game, be aware that some parts you may pillage off your other games are unobtainium. So given the opportunity, try and pick a stock mech that is VERY common or easily sourced if you think there is even a remote possibility of ever making a small run.
Quoted from epthegeek:I don't think that means what you think it means.
sorry I can provide an abbreviated list with the innovative single aspects. On the whole all those things make for a super innovative game.
Here is a more appropriate list for you
Best flow of any wide body ever! >>YES innovative. The last widebody with any flow was JD?
REAL physical ball lock elevated in game >> elevated mid ramp ball lock was done when?
REAL miny upper pf that plays great and is very difficult >> last upper pf that played decent was WWFRR
6 flippers EACH with multiple shots from them >> Never done
Great use of a single pop bumper to bring some randomness back to pinball >>Been decades since we have seen this
13x unique combo (I think it is a 13 way but honestly not 100%) shot >>>NEVER been done!
outlane nudgeback possibility >> last done in mid 80 and not in same way
A shot that is down the pf and not up it (What? yes a cross shot form mid L flip to go around the pop bumper!) >> ever done?
Real handdrawn art (before Stern even decided to finally do this) >> completely innovative in common day; so much that Stern coppied the idea
AMAZING code and now cool feature like ability to turn your game into a jukebox when in attract mode >> Never done.
Mini-mode capability so you can try out some of the deeper modes in the game (think LITZ type cheater w home rom style) Never done
Quoted from Rarehero:As though "playing the game much" is a real option for anyone besides the locals
stop on by anytime. Happy to have you over to play.
some people are REALLY dumb!
You do the math on parts. You do the math on how much time and energy it takes to even organize making 4 games.
I can tell you I spent over 100hrs in total to assemble my own game (It will NEVER be sold).
If you think this is some crazy plan to 'profit' off making a game and selling it for 14k you are either stupid or your time and energy is valued pretty low.
25k would be a fair price for the amount of work that went into building even 1.
These were built because the developer wanted to share his game with others!!!!! No other reason!
He wanted to prove to himself that it could be done. He wanted the game to have a better chance for others to play.
Before there were 2 protos. Now there are 4 more and some dombass (me) is even willing to invite people over to play. Madison is only a plane ride away and the weather is perfect this time of year
Quoted from Volte6:I find it more interesting as to why they are being so secretive.
There is NOTHING secretive!
4 games were made because that is ALL of the off the shelf parts that could be readily sourced. There are now 4 different parts that would need to be made or have the geometry of the game changed to accomodate equivalent parts. I don't even know what those parts are as I dont care to know them. You have twisted this into some odd ass thing in your head.
There is no secret. There is merely the simple and logical reason of why ONLY 4 more games were built. THERE WERE ENOUGH PARTS TO BUILD ONLY 4 COMPLETE GAMES!
Why not share what those parts are? Also another very simple and logical reason. Telling you or others means less chance for them ever being available for those that may need them in the future (i.e the current game owners or in the rare chance Scott decides he wants to try and make an additional game someday).
You are being really strange about this.
Quoted from Rarehero:So now it's $8k plus a travel expenses?
nope, just a plane ride to play. Not sure where the 8k comes in? Mine is never for sale. However you are welcome to come play, just give me a heads up. Plenty of other games if Wooly bores you
Quoted from Rarehero:You can stop trying to convince us it's the greatest thing ever if we'll never be able to buy one anyway.
I am not trying to convince anybody of anything. Just talking pinball.
The ONLY way you will ever be able to buy one is if someone picks up the title and makes it. I am already convinced there would be no problem selling 250 of them for 8k or 8500 if they were sitting in a box ready to ship.
I am merely offering you the opportunity to come play some pinball and be able to get a real impression on the game in a home environment.
Quoted from rosh:but please don't say something is innovative, just because it has not been done for 20 years
the conglomerate of what they have done is the MOST innovative game to be built in the past 20 years IMO.
For ex >>>A pop bumber is not innovative but its specific use and placement on a playfield can be and in this case is. I am not sure what you are looking for but this game has more innovation than anything we have seen in common day produced games.
I guess the video screen in JJP games is innovative? For me, I dont play video games so it does little for me.
What is the last innovative thing in a produced pinball that you would file under innovative?
Once TBL is produced I woudl say the bowling alley and rug are very innovative. WOZ I see nothing innovative per your narrow definition. None of the recent Sterns have any innovation per your idea...
sorry, did not realize this has gone beyond the prototype stage.
That is definitely the more creative thing in pinball by putting the screen in the pf. I would say a similar thing was done in SST with player feedback right in the pf, but that is just using your narrowly defined window of what is innovation.
On the whole is is obvious that WOOLY is very unique and lots of things that as a whole package make it stand out in the crowd.
Quoted from epthegeek:I realize this is your cause of the week
That is offensive and inflamatory I have been in love with this game for almost 2 years now, since I first played on the very first prototype!
Quoted from epthegeek:Yeah, but you've been dormant on the subject until you got one.
actually that could not be further from the truth but I suppose you like to pigeonhole me so enjoy...
side note : Any non-asshats ever want to check out Wooly, then give me a heads up and we will see if schedules can sync up when you are in Madison. Happy to have others over to play.
Post summer is always best as honestly games dont get touched much around here in warm weather months.
Now I wonder whom is getting #4. I put my balls on the lockdown of #3 and #4 when scott was not looking I just like to leave my mark 
Quoted from rosh:Revolutionary innovation (vs evolutionary innovation)
I would say SPIKE is pretty revolutionary. Still has some bugs to work out but after assembling and entire game the cost savings and modular nature of SPIKE is really something to be admired.
They were just fine. Neo just not happy with how HE did.
Golf goal was to hit atleast 2 zeus letters on the upper pf. Neo stroked out with a 4 but someone in his group even got it done in 1 ball so they obviously had no issue making all the tough shots. 16 out of 39 players on the course got it done in 1 or 2 ball... Flippers were just fine frank.
set on 15 for lower and mids. Set on 13 for uppers. easily able to make all ramps with a clean shot even from cradle and pitch of 7.2
i can hand out stats on shots from the event if you want, but needless to say it was plenty easy to make all shots if you hit them cleanly.
i could have easily turned up power but it was tuned in and playing well. Neo did not have a single comment yesterday. I would have been happy to give him a tutorial on the game. Some people just like to internet.
Most People were happy to have the opportunity to play a rare game along with all the other great games people brought to the event. I have only heard Neo complain about games at the event, esp the ones which he played poorly on. it is really too bad he did not take a minute to ask me yesterday if he thought flippers were weak, I would have gladly showed him otherwise and even turned up the power after the competition was over so he could see how strong they can be and to help those who are not good at making the shots and need added power to overcome their poor shot accuracy.
Like I said Neo, sad that you did not say anything yesterday. i would have happily turned up the power after competition to help you out.
It was a tough goal and the shots are tight. I dialed the game in specifically for the event and plenty of people had no problem completing the goal without stroking out. the goal required a left orbit shot to upper R flipper, followed by shot up to the upper pf, followed by hitting at least 2 zeus targets. it was proven to be the 4th hardest hole on course A with an avg of 2.9 strokes to complete it. over half the people playing the game had no problem making the shots you say were under powered FYI as they did not stroke out. As Steve R says, PLAY better!
Quoted from kaneda:So let me get this straight. Same game. Same flippers. Radically different opinions. Anything more important going on in the wolrd?
Well technically Neo has an opinion and I am looking at the results from the competition which show that in fact the majority of people had no problem making the shots he says were unmakable and doing them in clean succession.
Funny, you did not say a single thing yesterday...
Pretty tacky to have a complaint after you finish in the bottom 25%, but did not ask a thing about it at the event.
Everyone else only told me how much fun they had playing the game and how glad they were that I brought it so they could check it out.
Quoted from CaptainNeo:I'd think you would have wanted it dialed in as much as possible and playing as good as possible so people would have a full experience to enjoy all the fruits the game had to offer. I played Heidi on it and told her directly how crappy the flippers were and asked her if they were adjustable.
LOL. I just looked and she got a 1 on it...
She said you asked her about flipper power and she told you they were adjustable and I had turned them down so the shots could be made from cradle but as to not lead to breakage. Not sure why you seem to have forgot that she told you they were adjustable yesterday. I had them on 15 and they go all the way to 40. At 40 you can make it to the upper pf from any Ramp, LOL.
Seems like your intent here is pretty obvious.
To any cool pinheads, if you are ever in the madison area and want to check out wooly just hit me up. i am happy to share and even show you some of the cool stuff like ability to change flipper power in the settings, just ask rather that talk stupid on the internet.
Neo, when the majority of people had no problem completing the goal then that tells me it was playing pretty good.
i appreciate your feedback that you think flipper power set to 15 was not enough. it was enough for the vast majority of people there to enjoy the game and make the needed shots with ease as evidenced by lots of people that did well on completing the goal.
You deciding not to say a single thing in person yesterday and then come online and make outlandish claims makes you look bitter about how you played and honest a pretty shitty thing to do as a friend. If you thought the game needed more flipper power, why not come see me after golf and ask to see it adjusted? After-all, my wife even told you it was adjustable...
it really does not make much sense to me to not ask in person and just come bitch about it later when you were even told they were adjustable.
Quoted from lordloss:He built it himself, I'd expect a lot of dialing in needs to happen. Maybe the flipper strength is at the good enough level to avoid breaking amything?
Flipper strength was set good enough to make all ramps from a craddle with ease as evidence by the number of people able to easily complete the pingolf goal. It was also set to not be overly strong as no reason to be overpowered.
i tested and adjusted extensively on Friday after setting up at MRP. i even made it pretty deep in a game on friday and had absolutely no problem with successive ramp shots over and over as certain modes call for that.
Neo, I would have happily taken the 30 sec to open the game and adjust them up as soon as golf qualifying was over. All you needed to do was ask. I was running around helping others out and playing but would have happily taken the short amount of time to even show you how cool it is to be able to adjust coil strength!
I will say again that they were playing good enough for someone in your 4-pack to get a hole in 1. The last 4-pack to play the game (after 36 other games played in direct succession) included scores of 2, 1, 1, and 2, so it does really appear you were in the minority that struggled with flipper settings for golf. Sorry you did not enjoy the game. Next time, please take a minute to let the game owner or an official know and I will be happy to discuss or address.
Quoted from T-800:Mad props to Whysnow for his Mad Rollin' tourney and sharing his pinball machine with so many people
thanks Scott! I love sharing this game. Looking forward to the next time you get to play mine now that it is dialed in!
I still feel so fortunate to have been invited to be part of the creators addition and to have this game!
Quoted from T-800:WOOLY will most likely be at Expo again this year.
that is GREAT news!
Quoted from benheck:A pinball kit would be the dumbest idea in the history of dumb ideas.
ANYTHING that gets more WOOLYs out in the world is a GREAT idea!
I support Scott and Frank in whatever they can do to get this game made in greater numbers!
Quoted from benheck:What would we know?
well TBT, you know 1 way to get it done. Saying there is only 1 way would be silly.
Quoted from rotordave:Agree with this and Llyods comments. The vast majority of wealthy pin buyers I know don't even know how to do a LED job, let alone build an entire machine.
rd
If any wealthy pin buyers want to convince Scott to sell them all the parts, I will assemble everything for 7000USD, not a penny less!
You pay for all the parts, I will do the full assembly work for 7k.
Quoted from Aurich:So what's the story?
just play it in less than a week and see for yourself. Like most things tactile, you are better off just experiencing it for yourself.
Quoted from jlm33:Says the guy who was (briefly) PR for Zidware...
wait!!!!???!!! Is this true?
I suggest instead of this constant conjecture and jumping to conclusions that all people interested in WOOLY spend some time with Scott and Frank and play the game at Expo. Talk with them in person and ASK them what they want to do going forward. Maybe they already have a plan? Maybe they have no desire to ever build more? Maybe they have 10 of them already built and sitting in a trailer to be sold at expo?
I own a game and I have no clue what team RIOT has planned for the future of WOOLY, so I will definately be asking lots of questions! I will also do anything in my power/ability to help get more of these made so others can enjoy them.
Quoted from Coyote:Pay for my trip and hotel, and I will!
there is always email and Scott is a pretty friendly guy...
Quoted from jwilson:When I looked closely at the playfield I could see the dithering of the CMYK colours, and the keyline was visibly blurry. 300dpi is actually pretty low-res.
you have no idea what you are talking about. Looking at mine right now and super crisp and clean keyline and sharp images look just like the original amazing art.
Quoted from luvthatapex2:I haven't decided if I want to re-do all of the assets in color someday. I was more concerned in finishing the gamecode and programming/installing the RGB GI.
color would be sweet!
I will pay for Franks color display setup if you want to do the legwork to make it color (did Frank do the dots or did Scott?)
Side note >> Frank I am almost done with other route pinball stuff so I can get back to fun stuff (i.e. Wooly).
Quoted from benheck:Did play Hilton's at Mad Rollin' in September though.
that did not have the new sound package turned on as it was not public knowledge at that time.
a game where 100% of owners will purchase the colorDMD
Thanks Frank! you da man!!!!!
Got any scanlines examples? That is what i usually use.
Quoted from dmbjunky:For sure. I would like to see the video. Will this be considered game 51 for ColorDMD?
technically it is #51.
I wish Randy had trolled us all with the hints pictures.
Quoted from lordloss:Its nice that its being updated, but thats a lot of work for 6 machines.
I still love that few people actually know how many exist or where they are. I find it fun with all the guesses from people on whom the non-public owners are
I REALLY hope this makes it to production someday! I recently started putting more time on mine with new code and am having lots of fun exploring again. ColorDMD is goona be sweet!
Quoted from Zitt:Wait... This is b.s., we.can't get stern star trek colored... But this game does... WTF!
Half joking / half mocking
Nice job. Lucky bastage
Stern does not have Frank!!!
(honestly I am surprised they have not offered him a job, or Spooky has not tracked him down)
Quoted from rotordave:To be fair though, the call for 100 deposits
to actually be fair... the call for deposits was the EXACT same that Spooky has done; 1k down.
People were understandably gun shy, but apples to oranges with the terms.
Spooky WAS the team to build them if I am remembering correctly.
Quoted from Jgaltr56:I feel like a lot has changed since the first offering. Frank's updates and continued support has fueled solid excitement that wasn't there before. Spooky was still relatively new to the scene at the time but they have since delivered multiple titles and shown they can deliver on their promises. But most importantly for me I thought $8K seemed crazy for a large unknown. Today, it doesn't seem so crazy compared to what is available now.
agreed, lots hs changed.
guessing the price/cost to produce may have also changed?
Quoted from Jgaltr56:Spooky has also proven they can make games at this price point and below. But ultimately the market will decide. Of course, if I owned 1 of 11 of a super cool game I'd want the price to be as high as possible!
WOOLY has more stuff on it then the last 2 spooky games combined (I am pretty sure that is not an exageration) so BOM is still gonna be more than either AMH or RZ; just the reality. Keep in mind Wooly is also a bit more complex to assemble which will factor in. The price savings could come from going to PinHeck Board (if it can support the game?) and from Spooky being more effecient at assembly as things progress (obvious as RZ production pace is much faster and more effecient).
It is 1 of 4 creators editions plus the couple prototypes, but I dont care about value as it is never for sale! I was fortunate enough to be part of an experience that I will cherish for ever and am always thankful to Scott and Frank for brining me along for the ride. Still the best and hardest work week of my life putting them together, but also the most rewarding. For reference, I have been solicited to sell many times for CRAZY money and I jst say no thanks.
As for production, I hop is eventually goes to production and will do everything I can to help it get there and reduce the cost. I love the game and want to see it made and out there. I actually would buy a second one so I could keep my personally built one for the colelciton and put the second out on route for everyone to play!
Quoted from MustangPaul:Wasn't there some problem with getting a few parts, they couldn't find any more?
I think most of those are now available at new sources
Quoted from lordloss:I think we argued about this before and how nobody would comment on the parts that were not available to buy.
There is plenty of incentive to NOT tell people like you.
The current owners know what is hard to come by and most have likely located spares at this stage as they have come available from sources. I would never tell people as there is no upside to doing so and not real reason it should matter to them. It makes me question WHY you have always been so obsessed with trying to find out???
Quoted from Coyote:Interestingly, anyone know if a WOOLY is gonna make an appearance at a show in 2017? Would love to play one..!
LMK when you will be in the area.
Quoted from rubberducks:Spooky are the only real choice there.
I personally think Heighway is the ONLY logical choice (after they get Aliens rolling).
WOOLY would be a perfect kit only machine for the wide body platform heighway is rolling with and Heighway has shown they have the skill to assemble a high quality machine that is jammed full of stuff. I personally would also love to see it with the induction based switches to further speed up the game (it is already super fast, but would be cool to be even faster )
Spooky has their hand full for the next many years with RZ at the 50% delivered mark, Dominoes will be the year after that, the next theme which everyone knows about and probably the worse kept secret in pinball, and then Ben's next game/ Spooky official #3.
If Spooky even decided to take it on, then we are probably talking 3 years out at best. Keep in mind no matter what, the game would need to reprogrammed on a new system. I sure hope Scott and Frank can find a way to make it feasible and also are able to make a truck load of money for the additional efforts it would take on top of what they have already done!
Quoted from lordloss:You don't think spooky will expand?
They already did expand into their new/current building which sounds to be full now...
I think Spooky is VERY smart and staying right sized. Keep the perfect sized shop and keep it running somewhat smoothly for the extended time frame. Chuck is a good dude and just looking to carve out a nice niche for his family and close crew. From what I see, he has no desire to become bigger than he is and then deal with letting people go/rehiring/ eb and flow of manufacturing. My guess is that he would like to work into blockbuster titles where he can sell 300-500 of each game and keep them 'limited', produce those 300-500 of each game in 1-1.5 years of time. This allows him the perfect amount of time to be developing the next title. Planned correctly they can bring out a new title and have the one behind that in development for 3 years. Keep the cycle going and bring in contract jobs (dominos, the poorly kept secret, ?) to pepper in between the spooky blockbusters.
If anything, I see them bringing in new games that others develop (like Total Annihilation by Scott D). I personally hope the benheck board becomes available so people can start building future/potential Spooky games with it. The cost alone is a HUGE savings over the other options on the market for home brewers. To me, it would be best to encourage the home brew market to start out with the ben Heck board system and then if someone has a great game there is less rework to start over with recoding if they opt to contract a build with Spooky.
Quoted from rubberducks:It would be a disaster.
no it would not. People wanted WOOLY but were afraid of the price. A kit is the perfect answer (after Aliens). Assuming Aliens sells well, there will be hundreds of kit ready cabs out in the world that could snatch up a WOOLY kit for much less than a full game. Heighway is the only company running widebodies currently and they are built on the kit concept.
Quoted from rubberducks:Also, given the boards and switches HW use, the whole game would need to be completely re-engineered
You do realize that EVERY possible manufacturer (besides DP but they are not even remotely a real world option) is using a board set/technology different from P-Roc (which WOOLY is on). That means any option would require a full re-engineering.
Quoted from rubberducks:You aren't thinking any of this through.
sure I am. I have thought it through tons and spoken with Scott and Frank about it lots over the years.
Reality is that ANY option is going to require tons of rework from what it currently is. The real question is IF they even want to go down that road and what THEY consider the best option. We can all have our opinion and all that will ever matter is what team Riot wants to do. I hope they figure out a way to bring it to market. Last I heard they may even be willing to sell the whole package deal to someone and let them take it to market/ contract with a manufacturer.
To me, that is the best idea. Pay team Riot for what they have done and then let someone else take it and run on the production side. I have always thought that could be a good option for any of the major manufactures.
Quoted from Jodester:Came looking for some sort of build announcement...all I got was more chatter about why/whynot the game will be built.
Still fun to discuss.
Either way it means people have a rejuvinated interest in the game and that is good. Maybe just to motivation the riot crew needs to give it another go?
Quoted from dmbjunky:I would like a kit but a generic kit. Not a Heighway kit. It would be like the conversion kits of old that would fit in a certain style of cab. They could make it fit in a Stern or Williams cab. Playfield, boards, translite, with optional side art. It would give people the flexibility either to use an existing cab, build a cab on their own, or have someone build one for them. It would cut down on a lot of the manufacturing, material, and shipping cost. It could also be a nice jumpstart into making full games of their own like what Pinstar did for DE (I may be wrong there but it seems like a nice assumption).
Logistical nightmare for support IMO. Only way it could be done is to sell a prepackaged blank pf, list of all the needed parts, and the code for X amount. EAch person has to sign off that there is zero support expected or given and good luck in your build. When you screw it up, don't contact riot. Aside from that it would be a mess, esp with the expectations combined with lack of skill of so many people that think they are capable.
Because airplanes and car kits cost way more than a pinball kit.
It is worth the hassle becuase there is more profit and a bigger audience to buy them. How many kits would really sell and what would the profir be? Not worth the effort to even do the documentation.
I suggested to scott that a feasible option would be to host a build camp and offer the experience similar to when we built the four games in one week.
15k gets you all the parts and the ten day experience of building you r own game from scratch. Wonder how many would be willing to do that? Granted you also have to have all the skill and tools to do the job. I think reality is pinball is already a small hobby and even a smaller number are able to build a game from a pile of parts.
Quoted from lordloss:Maybe if the game was actually available for pinball enthusiasts to play, it might get more people willing to buy. The 10 or so machines locked away in basements arn't doing anyone any good at getting it made.
There are 6 games available to play and EVERY single one of them has been out in public at least once and most have been out in public more than once. I have invited numerous pinheads over to play that i have never met before, some have even reached out to me and I have had them over to check it out. From what I know, all the other owners have done the same on a regular basis. Have you ever even asked to play one, made connections with someone that has one, or just complain on a semi annual basis about this? You are fortunate enough that you have a few within a reasonable drive; that said with the way you specifically have been I am guessing few would care to invite you over and guys like you make people take caution towards inviting others over.
I am not sure what you expect?
How many times do they need to be at Expo for you to stop crying over and over and over... Seriously... largest pinball show and it was there multiple years in a row. If you cared to play it so much, there have multiple opportunities for you to do so. I am genuinely interested in what you are crying about and would finally satisfy you. Is there any realistic scenario to satisfy you, or do you just like to continually bring this up for the fun of it.
In case you did not realize there are also a few iterations of wooly as a virtual table last I checked (not sure if any of them have current layout or rules, but they will give you a chance to see the vibe at minimum).
Quoted from jgentry:I agree with this. Just look at what TPF did for AMH sales.
took a game that was actively in production and 2/3 sold out and helped it get to 150 sales quicker?
Quoted from TigerLaw:Having a couple going around to shows would be nice. I don't think one has ever made it to TPF or HAAG.
Money does not grow on trees to continually bring a game all over the country, let alone multiples (sounds like that is what you are asking for)
Quoted from lordloss:Put it on route, bring it to level 257, bring it to SS, bring it to vegas... something!
You want one of the owners to give their game to an operator in Chicago or LTG or PHOF?
I guess you dont have any realistic examples...
Quoted from dmbjunky:I get to put my own machine together and spend a week and half doing it.
I was providing an example of the opportunity for people that dont have all the skill to assemble it themselves.
I agree that some (few) would be willing to buy a pf and code along with a list of parts, and it would be great for those people interested in trying to build their own and able to do so. 3-4k and you get a blank pf/ramps/few other game specific parts, a parts list, and a thumb drive with your code could be a cool option for those adventurous enough to go at it!
Quoted from jgentry:It doesn't do a lot of good if there are not plans down the road to make the game. But if they hope to get it made more people need to see it and play it. It doesn't get much bigger then TPF for this.
AMH was selling and doing ok, when it went to Texas suddenly it instantly sold out and the secondary market exploded. Credit Spooky for making a good game to sell. Credit it being at tpf for the huge demand spike.
last I have hear from team Riot they are not actively pursuing a build, so it would be a different scenario than waht AMH was in at that time.
I think TPF was good timing for Spooky. Any show at the time of having the majority of the run sold on a very limited game would have had the same reaction IMO. Just needed enough people to see it was a good game with good code by that stage and the reality that there was less than 50 left to buy. Did not hurt that TPF has lots of people, but I dont think TPF was anything in particular besides right place and right time.
Granted if Riot was trying to get this back to a production run then it seems like TPF, MGC, replayFX, Pinagogo, PPE, etc would all be great shows to go do a tour with a game. I think at this time they could likely convince a few of the larger shows to pay for their trip by bringing the game, then parlay this into the opportunity to sell a limited run of 200-300 of the games. If they had a prearrangement with any manufactuer to build it then that would certainly make it a sell out even at 8-9k (based on what other games in the new market are now selling for).
Quoted from LTG:One of the owners talked about parking his here ( SS Billiards ) for a few weeks.
I don't know if it would help. I did offer to put up a sign during the last effort to get them made.
LTG : )
Your place would be the optimal place to put one for a few weeks as you are a great tech and able to keep any game running well at all times so it shows well!
Maybe the coin drop could even help to get the game to other shows if Riot decides they are going to make a run of it now that the market has changed?
Quoted from TigerLaw:I hear you on cost to bring it to shows. You'd need a team of people committing to the travel and maintenance of the machine as it went around the country (i.e. one person brings it to ABC show where it is picked up by the next person to go to XYZ show, etc.).
not feasible. Most people would not be able to ensure a game stays playing correctly. i know I would never trust someone else to maintain my game at a random show and have to assume Scott would want to keep a game tuned in to keep a consistent product for others to see.
I would consider bringing mine to TPF if my trip was paid for (not planning to go this year) and Scott gave it the OK along with a desire to get the game out there for a possible production run.
Quoted from TigerLaw:Yes, good points. Not feasible. What ideas do you have at this juncture?
that would depend... Does team Riot have a desire to try and make a go of a production run? Does team spooky/heighway, JJP, Stern, DP, anyone have the desire and ability to manufacture?
If the answer to both of these is Yes, then I would just do the same as before to try it again. 1000 down, get 100 commitments by X date and production will move forward. Make it a limited run of 300 games or limited timed release like Dominoes is, but for this a LE of 300 seems good.
Make it all contingent on getting 100 commitments (or whatever # is needed to make it worth the effort for Scott/Frank) by X time.
TPF is the next big show, so work out a deal with them to get the game there (like I said, I would drive down with mine if my entire trip was paid for). Also take the game to MGC since it is the next big and close show. Make the cut off May 1st for 100 commitments. See if the timing/situation/market has really changed enough to have people put their money where their mouth is.
Quoted from lordloss:I thought another would be built or the owners weren't selfish...
Do you have the $$$$$ to donate for another to be built? I will donate my time to help build it if Scott wants one built to put on route as SS.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Since then the software has improved quite a bit
software has been polished but is largely unchanged since the last time it was at Expo.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:dots have been colorized
agreed, very cool but also an added cost i assume.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:but releasing a virtual game would allow thousands of people to try it out and would raise cash. Money that could be used to fund conversion of code to proc. Start a gofundme and people donating $20 would get a copy of the game based on current software.
I would pay for an updated virtual game! Would be cool to do a gofundme, but I would expect to be paying way more than $20 for the effort it would take to get it coded in a virtual world. I love this idea!
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Converting to PROC is a benefit to RIOT
ummm... WOOLY already is P-roc which is also a LARGE part of the BOM and something that likely added over 1k to the base price. If they are going to recode then going to a BenHeck board (if it has the power to run it) seems like the better way to go just based on cost alone.
Ever think of opening back up the purchase list scott? May be able to get to 100 now that the market has changed and spooky is more proven?
Quoted from PBFan:Thanks for the interjection Scott - to help set things straight (again). Love the pin - hope to get a chance to play it again sometime. For the "lucky six" - I guarantee if I ever see it on location I will drop at least $50.00 in the coin-box.
That is great. Now I just need to figure out how to make DBV only take 50s
Quoted from lordloss:The unofficial spokesperson for wooly was wrong about the BOM? hmm.....
actually, no...
You can go add up the cost for yourself since you fancy yourself the expert of all things WOOLY. I cant remember exact cost but it is right at 1k+/- compared to the pinheck board which is something like 25% of that. The question underlying is could the pinheack board handle the amount of stuff in WOOLY.
As for BOM, proc is a large cost factor for building any custome game. Still the best thing on the market, but it is costly. Sorry Gerry, you put out a great product but it does cost a bit.
Quoted from gstellenberg:No need to try to remember
Sorry, I was off by 100 bucks in my off the top of my head guesstimate.
I went back to my BOM sheet.
$330 for Proc with mounting plate
$110 master pd-16
$100 for the 8x8
$100 for the 3rd board
$100 for the fourth board
$100+ for the cubie truck and SD card (rasperberry pi couldnt handle wooly needs and that raod was gone down before)
$30 for the Arduino
Plus tax
Plus shipping
All said, over 900.
Point being, aside from the PF and Cab that is the single largest cost and if someone were attempting to go to production then cutting BOM where feasible is a good idea. Last I hear the cost of the Ben Heck board was a fraction of the cost. It is also a single board system which means less connectors and wiring, so simplified assembly. Sorry Gerry, love your Proc and it is a fantatsic product but there is zero reason for a Spooky built WOOLY to not use the BenHeck board (even if it needs to be beefed up and re-engineered). I am sure the re-coding would not be fun (sorry Frank ), but at a potential $500 savings per game, those are the sort of things that could mean the different between moving forward on a production run or not. Over 500 games that is 300k. Hell, manufacturers remove spinners from Pro games for less than a buck
Again, I love P-roc
ps. Lordloss, it is a waste of everyone's time when you try to interject about things you have no clue on. Please drop it for your own sake.
Quoted from epthegeek:Sorry, this is just too good. "Aside from everything else that makes up the game, the electronics are the most expensive part"
Come on E. Hypothetical >> 3 main components that cost the big bucks and you want to shave costs to push towards a possible production run.
How much fat is there to trim off the pf or cab? vs, how much could you trim from the brains?
that is the point. That is all. Again, love Proc! Love what Gerry has offered and done and I plan to use it in the future when I someday build my own game. This is not a dig against Proc, but a point that in the production world there appear to be more cost effective options.
It does raise the question why Ben is not working with Parker to beef up the Ben Heck board, document, and sell the crap out of it. A single board solution with base code for $500/under and it could be an incubator for future possible Spooky contract builds.
Quoted from dtowndobe:Up front - no horse in this race...
Originally, you mentioned $1K+/- for the PROC, and significantly less for the Heck system. Multimorphic states $664 for one (1) system, with a discounted amount (unknown) for quantity orders. If I had to guess, I would say quantity pricing would be in the low $500 range. No basis for that though!
You've got the Heck system at $500/potentially under with base code. No confirmation of price for the Heck system since I surmise it is not a "commercially available" product - only available integrated with a Spooky machine at the moment. Let's then use your number, $500 per Heck system.
So, a single unit of the PROC for $164 more, with existing code developed, when compared to the Heck system, almost assuredly needing code work. That code work would require manhours, which equals cost. This doesn't factor in any hardware engineering if the Heck system needed to be upgraded to handle the requirements of WoOly. And given the original number of machines to be built, there aren't a lot of opportunities to really spread out new costs, like coding or architecture changes. Factor in a quantity discount for the PROC, and cost discrepancy most likely approaches dips well below $100 per machine rapidly... Not to mention the schedule impact changing control systems would have.
If there were hundreds of machines at stake, then moving to a less complex system and being able to spread any new "development" costs over more machines would certainly make sense. That's not the case here - very limited sample size so to speak.
It seems to me sticking with the PROC would be the sensible thing to do if Riot were to move forward. Of course, total speculation on my part.
no, you missed the actual numbers and points.
Proc actually cost just over $900 for what is in Wooly. Check abouve with the actual price breakdown. If it was supposed to be $664, then Gerry I need some money back
PinHeck board is under $250 cost each and a single board system (that was what I was told for a 1 off board when I asked to buy one), but you are correct that it is currently only a Spooky game use. I was suggesting that Ben should bring it to market for those building custom games and think he could easily charge $500 for a Proc equivalent along with documentation and a base code. I assume the volume discount on these for Spooky is also much cheaper.
That is a $650 cost difference for a 1 off game when looking at retial cost alone.
There is no way Proc is going to make up that difference. Even only building 100 games and that is 65k which I am sure would more than pay for the recoding work needed.
Quoted from MustangPaul:Wow talk about long ball times.
keep in mind Frank is a pro and plays WOOLY for a minimum of 45 min evry night he told me
I suck and my ball times are more like 3 min for a good game!
Quoted from dtowndobe:impact to schedule
Quoted from dtowndobe:longer lead time
is the game going into production all of a sudden? I must have missed something. I am fine with your point of view, but you d still keep negating the real cost was over $900 for Proc in Wooly. There may be a newer alternative configuration with proc and Pi, but that too would require changes.
Quoted from benheck:But not for a short run of games.
where do you estimate the price point vs time equation shifts?
Wooly could do a run of 500 after people see it is shipping IMO. A run of 100 may not make sense, but would 200, 300, 555?
Also, Ben this makes it a greater importance for you to put the benheck board out there for developers to use. Seems like a great idea to allow people to start delevoping 1-off customs with the correct hardware and framework fomr the start. A Spooky incubator for potential games is a huge plus. The largest barrier to any new game is bringing down the BOM, and decreasing cost form the start would be a big plus!
Quoted from jwilson:1) The Pinheck design is open source - nothing stopping you from using it.
https://github.com/LonghornEngineer/Pinheck_Pinball_System
great, where can we buy the finished board?
Quoted from TigerLaw:So, is Scott considering opening up deposits again
we can only hope!
Quoted from colonel_caverne:Is Scott waiting for a particular number of preorders or is it a financial or/and production issue that prevent this pin being built?
if you go back through the thread you can see the history of it. Paraphrasing, Scott gave his word that if 100 people were willing to commit and put down a 1k deposit by X date then he would move forward if not then all funds returned. They did not get the 100 commitments so Scott gave all the money back. That is were it sits it appears.
I think anyone interested should email team Riot and let them know your commitment. Ya never know.
(sorry for the emails you may get Scott, but it is a good thing if you ask me ; would love to see a production run for others to enjoy and make you some $$$$$$ for your effort)
Quoted from TigerLaw:They could also partner with Spooky? Target a late 2018 build out of 100 games? Would be awesome.
makes even more sense to work with Spooky now that they have done a Proc title.
Quoted from LTG:Sadly, no.
I believe the existing games reside with those that helped on the project, and none are operators that I know of except Kris. And I don't believe he's put it out on location.
Kris talked about bringing his here, but it never happened.
LTG : )
I operate also but have not put Wooly out. I did take it to Mad Rollin a few years back.
I have it in cue to add the colorGI and then I can update my code to the most recent built. After, that I would be happy to have a visitor stop over to play it.
Probably wont get to this till Jan, but it will get done (I promise Frank )
Hey frank > do I need any special wiring to install colorDMD?
Ordering today and was not sure if I need to ask them for anything specific?
Quoted from TigerLaw:I agree. I think they’d be having it go to shows if it was possible to go into production this year.
I dont think that is the case at all.
If somebody wanted to buy WOOLY for production, I think they would just buy it and make it happen.
It is obvious that people want the game and the many positives of it already.
If AP or Spooky (I only mention them as they both are possible in my mind since they both are familiar with production on a P-Roc platform) decided they wanted to work something out and make it happen... I think they would be wise to cement that deal, make whatever changes they deem necessary for their style of production, and THEN bring that version to shows when they announce it.
I would say that with AP having Houdini and Spooky having TNA and then ACNC... both companies have their hands full with production this year?
Quoted from colonel_caverne:Hello,
I’m glad to be the new owner of this game in Europe
Wow! Can't believe he sold the game! Congrats and welcome!
Columns look very cool!
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