Disagree.

A tad nearsighted wouldn't you say?

So I presume Spooky's business plan was to try kits first, then when there weren't enough tech savvy / patient people to sell a suitable number, the plan was changed to sell complete pins? If so, I humbly retract my statements.

Seems to me the simple thing to do would be for Riot to come on here and either 1) we're not moving forward with WoOly (for whatever reason - and no explanation necessary), or 2) open the list back up and go from there. Outside of that, everything else is just idle chatter.

I'm personally hoping they open the list back up...

Sure did...

Up front - no horse in this race...

Originally, you mentioned $1K+/- for the PROC, and significantly less for the Heck system. Multimorphic states $664 for one (1) system, with a discounted amount (unknown) for quantity orders. If I had to guess, I would say quantity pricing would be in the low $500 range. No basis for that though!

You've got the Heck system at $500/potentially under with base code. No confirmation of price for the Heck system since I surmise it is not a "commercially available" product - only available integrated with a Spooky machine at the moment. Let's then use your number, $500 per Heck system.

So, a single unit of the PROC for $164 more, with existing code developed, when compared to the Heck system, almost assuredly needing code work. That code work would require manhours, which equals cost. This doesn't factor in any hardware engineering if the Heck system needed to be upgraded to handle the requirements of WoOly. And given the original number of machines to be built, there aren't a lot of opportunities to really spread out new costs, like coding or architecture changes. Factor in a quantity discount for the PROC, and cost discrepancy most likely approaches dips well below $100 per machine rapidly... Not to mention the schedule impact changing control systems would have.

If there were hundreds of machines at stake, then moving to a less complex system and being able to spread any new "development" costs over more machines would certainly make sense. That's not the case here - very limited sample size so to speak.

It seems to me sticking with the PROC would be the sensible thing to do if Riot were to move forward. Of course, total speculation on my part.

Pretty sure I didn't miss any numbers. You seem to keep making new numbers...! :^) Now you're getting a delta of $650!

So now that we have some new info:

PROC $774 "retail" - confirmed by Multimorphic
Heck $250 "retail" - per Whysnow, not confirmed by Heck

Delta is $524. Probably safe to assume the delta would go down after a quantity discount applied to each, for example:

PROC $774 retail, 10% quantity discount = $696.60
Heck $250 retail, 10% quantity discount = $225

Resultant delta is $471.60.

So if a 10% discount is realistic (probably - maybe more is possible, say 15%, but that just narrows the delta even further in the PROC's favor!), the potential resulting delta is less than $500. Now go back and factor in the changes supposedly necessary to swap out the PROC with a Heck - coding development, hardware architecture to accommodate the specific requirements for WoOly, impact to schedule, increased manufacturing requirements as per Gerry, etc. Seems like the $47,160 cost savings (or $52,400 retail) over a total of 100 machines would get eroded extremely quickly... and result in a longer lead time to boot. Last thing pinball consumer want it a longer lead time!

Let's not forget we're talking about an $8000 machine. If you could simply apply the "retail" delta of $524 as a savings in the price of one machine, you're saving 6.55%. But that doesn't take into account the need for an upgraded Heck board and any other costs associated with migrating WoOly to Heck. I'm all for saving money, but based on what we know, I don't see it happening...

Not trying to be confrontational, just trying to argue the point that for a very small, finite sample like WoOly, making a change to a different controller, given what we know, makes no sense and will not ultimately help get the product to market.

At the end of the day, I'm on board with whatever it takes to get this machine produced - really doesn't matter to me one bit what its guts are!

P.S. I'd be totally in for a kit.

Not negating anything... The real cost of PROC, in today's dollars is known. It's not $900. I highly doubt the new architecture of the PROC system would require notable work to integrate, but that is pure, unadulterated speculation on my part.

You're not understanding the basic numbers that you've been providing. This is all a hypothetical situation anyway, until Riot decides otherwise. Point is, as I've been trying to make all along, the ultimate difference in cost is not what you think it is, especially for a finite sample of 100 games. There is no legitimate reason, if the machine were to be made, to switch to the Heck system. And that's not a shot at the Heck system. As mentioned above, both systems have their pluses and minuses... As I already said, the guts inside don't matter much to me.

I thought we were having a spirited back-and-forth - I know the game isn't going into production. I'll bow out now and hope to see a cool announcement from Riot in the future! Game looks amazing - enjoy it and I hope you're able to expose more people to it as time goes on!