sorry, did not realize this has gone beyond the prototype stage.

That is definitely the more creative thing in pinball by putting the screen in the pf. I would say a similar thing was done in SST with player feedback right in the pf, but that is just using your narrowly defined window of what is innovation.

On the whole is is obvious that WOOLY is very unique and lots of things that as a whole package make it stand out in the crowd.

That is offensive and inflamatory I have been in love with this game for almost 2 years now, since I first played on the very first prototype!

Wait so there are actually 4 differing assemblies per machine that are missing? I thought you said there was one part that there were only 4 left of.

And besides, why not just modify the design? This seems like a weird roadblock for something that you've dream of as a child. I've never heard of somebody going so far just to be stopped by something so mundane. It boggles the mind.

Putting a screen in a game isn't innovative, tracking the ball absolutely anywhere in the lower 2/3 of the playfield is. Modular playfields that are auto-recognized by the system for changing games is. An 18 ball trough that can serve balls to multiple locations is.

Unique. Yes. Creative. Yes. AWESOME? Yes. My only quibble here is with your swinging around the 'innovative' term.

Yeah, but you've been dormant on the subject until you got one.

That is absolutely true, you have been a huge supporter of wooly for a long time. The difference is now that you no longer have to split your love with Predator, Wooly gets it all, and maybe that is just too much love for any one pin

Well the fact that you now own one of 6, probably contributes to your love as well, which we all get. I am glad you were able to get your pin, but I would also point out that being such a fanatic about it, is sort of like putting salt in the wounds of those that wanted one and for now won't get one.

What a a-hole. He just shared one. Do you read or just post based on your agenda.

He could say a lot of things. But one thing we have learned about scott is he uses the truth. Even when it hurts. Ask the refunded customers how they felt. Then ask if they were ever lied to.

Economics stops adults dreams. For a guy with so few posts in the past year you sure have a lot to say all of a sudden. Hmmmm.
Did you not read re engineering would not be effective in the amount of profit riot could make if they manufactured the game.

To your first point, I said a redesign around those parts. This would mean getting rid of the parts. A lot was achieved in the time frame, a redesign of those features to not require unobtainable parts wouldn't require nearly as much work.

To your second point... What is it exactly? You don't feel I should weigh in with my thoughts? I'm not sure how to respond to that, to be honest.

I think we are using two different definitions. For example, if a drop target is what's unobtainable, get rid of it and change the design. Lets not pretend that there is only one way to make a pinball play field. Even this very field underwent drastic redesigns from original concept from the initial virtual design, so I think it's perfectly reasonable and economical.

So spend more time and money. On a game you say won't make any. Great idea.

Your very passionate why don't you call stern and express the desire for them to release all there parts cheap for the inde community. If you used this same persistence with them maybe you can solve this problem for everyone. Then you can be a hero in more places then your head.

Huh? Are you just being nonsensically argumentative now? If the game has the orders to support it, then design around the problem to fulfill orders. What part of that is unreasonable? It makes more sense to cancel the project?

Who hurt you, pinballnut3?

Out of curiosity, did anybody not from Minnesota/Wisconsin contribute money that was refunded? Honest question... I keep hearing about how he gave money back and was honest etc. (which I believe!), but it would be disingenuous if it was only like 1 person, or if it was just friends/associates saying all that.

Anyone from like... New York? California? Texas? Illinois?

I guess I can go back and dig through posts and find everyone who posted about receiving a refund.

Good idea. Take your time.

Volte your argument has been the parts thing is a scam. JJP says it in a speech, Riot has also just said it was parts. Others have said the same.

Do you just stir up discontent, doubt for fun.
Or do you really have this mission of concern for the "community growth" you talk about?

If so...again why don't you call stern and express the desire for them to release all there parts cheap for the inde community?
I'm not hurt at all. I am solving your argument and directing where your passion can achieve the outcome you have sorta championed.

You tapped out a page a posts ago but here we still chit chat on the internet.

I believe over 50 people made deposits, so pretty sure some of those were from outside mn/wi

Do you really think Scott just gave up at the first roadblock? Do you think he did not look at tons of alternatives? Give the man some credit, and recognize that he has sliced and diced this a dozen ways to try to make it happen in a way that makes sense for him financially.

I posted asking for clarity on a point, and the rest have been responses to people addressing me directly. Why keep asking me questions if you don't wish for a response?

What discontent am I stirring? I simply said there seems to be some sort of dishonesty. That's hardly stirring discontent. Who cares? He has been ethical about his business dealing, so where is the "discontent" originating from? I haven't indicated any sort of theft or anything. He also has a right to be dishonest. The only thing that REALLY bugs me about it is that I find it a strange way to treat supporters.

I really haven't said anything more than that the reasons given seem to be false. They still do. What's wrong with that? It's not like i'm implying somebody is going to be hurt by him or some how financially affected. But if somebody puts something forth and it doesn't add up, I don't have qualms about pointing that out either.

I don't care about JJP, or what he's said. For starters he has a questionable background and is supposedly under lawsuit for criminal financial behavior, so I wouldn't use him as much of a business reference. Secondly, even if you do insist, they STILL managed to deliver machines, so apparently it's doable. In any event, I don't think part supply issues can't occur, I just don't believe for a moment that it's insurmountable.

When stern spends 2 years pimping an idea and pumping people up, and then takes pre-orders and rides on good will, and then they give strange reasons that seem to be lies to cover up the reason they cancelled the project, I will absolutely do that. In the meantime, I have no way to contact gary stern, nor do I believe he will see or respond to anything I say... but I think you know this, so why are you being disingenuous and bringing up non-sequitur if not unrealistic calls to action?

That was a joke. lighten up a little bit. This is just a discussion. Why are people getting so butt hurt. I've been aloof in half of my responses trying to lighten the tone. Some of you people... it's impossible to have an ordinary discussion without it turning into a fight. I find this interesting. I find it noteworthy and something interesting to talk about. I think the entire custom pinball machine they built is as well, but there have been 20+ pages already talking about that. Now we are presented with a "must quit because of a part" situation, and it didn't pass the sniff test with me, so I find that interesting to discuss.

If you disagree with me, that's fine. I can stop posting about it... but if somebody quotes or addresses me I will respond.

Cool thanks for the info. That's a pretty hefty number, and it's unfortunate it couldn't be completed considering that.

I guess you're right. I'm sure he WANTS it to be completed. I guess I have a problem imagining a situation I can't design or engineer myself out of.

I'm sure he could design/engineer his way out of it, but probably not in a way that makes sense financially. The price point is already at the high end, adding another 500 or 1000 is not going to work. If he had gotten 100+ sign ups, then maybe the incremenal costs could be managed.

What a douche conversation this has become as usual lately here on Pinside .
I live in VA and got my refund and know others did too. You would have heard had it gone differently.
So now back to beating the poor guy up for not showing his underwear drawer and tax returns . Christ!

This Douche wagon (when you got so much Douche you need a wagon to haul it)

Did you just start following this thread. It was over 8 months ago. Everyone was refunded then. I even heard Scott ate the paypal fees for the integrity of it. This was just a last ditch surprise hoping to spur something.

I challenge you to find one person that says they did not get everything back.

You dont count he was only worried about those 4 states.

You're right, it was a douchy question... I actually tried to delete it after posting it but couldn't, so I left it.

On the other hand, transparency goes a long way for trust. I believe this goes for everyone, government, pinball makers, etc.

Coming out the gates with what sounds like a false excuse and then backing it up by claiming it's a secret doesn't earn trust.

edit: I'd also like to point out that his most feverish supporter AND owner of one of the ultra rare pins happens to live relatively nearby. It looks weird from my point of view.

I apologize, I think you misunderstood what I was getting at (this seems to happen a lot when you respond to my posts. I'm probably not being clear enough in my posts, I just worry about verbosity). I was trying to understand if there were just like 3 orders and so it was easy to be ethical vs. JPOP who got tons of orders and so got a lot deeper in the hole and makes it harder to be ethical. But I realize it's just too personal a question and I shouldn't have posted it.

I guess if you consider his time part of the money, but that would be a huge blunder given how much time has gone in already.

Funny. Pretty sure his narrowly defined window of innovation was the Actual Definition of innovation.

*shrug*

I just hope when scott finally asks you to stop "helping" you listen.

Enjoy your game. I hear they're pretty rare.

You've probably just been trolling with your blizzard of posts in this thread. But if not I simply cannot understand how you looked at T-800's posts and saw some kind of conspiracy or "obvious lie" to use your words. His design required X part. He could only find four of them. He doesn't want to announce what the part is because that might cause others to horde any remaining parts which would a) kill any hope of building future one-off WOOLYs and b) kill any prospect the handful of current owners have of getting a replacement if that part happens to break.

Where's the f*#king mystery?

Yet again the with the baseless (and frankly baffling) assumptions.

It just doesn't pass muster. I guess we all have different bars to meet.

No problem, I'm done

Guy its just that this information is a couple pages back in this post. Plain and simple you are spouting BS.

As far as discontent maybe I should of said complete shi*

You have accused of a parts conspiracy, only 3 real orders, to only selling to local people, no demand.

You have used the words Shiftyness, paranoia, not rational, hiding stuff, bullsh**, suspicious, no demand, profiteering off ultra rare game, B.S
Your integrity sucks. If you care about the community as you stated first. Support new, support little guy.
Support. Have not seen that from you yet.
Wheres my troll bomb when I need it.

Even setting aside his time. Let's take the one drop target, it is made up of, I'd guess 10 parts, unless it is the type that can self drop, which is probably then 15 parts. Some are going to be springs and screws that can likely be found, but the weldment needs to be made. So first you need drawings, then you need tools and/or dies made, so right there you are in for more than a few thousand since the weldment is really four to eight distinct parts and each need tools and dies, and that is before you make the parts and assemble the drop target mech then take that total cost divide that over 50 games and the cost per game is significant then repeat for the other needed parts

Dude chill, you're very emotional over this. I didn't mean to hit so many buttons.

I was simply theorizing. I wasn't "accusing" and incidentally, there isn't a lot to "accuse" of. I was just digging around for information to flesh out my understanding of the situation, and pointing out things that didn't add up for me.

You can't handle that. I get it. Chill, it's not a big deal. I admire what they've accomplished and am bummed about the failure, but jesus christ dude, it's not that big of a deal.

Stahp stahp stahp... my point was to eliminate the drop target if you can't GET a drop target. That's all. I get that it modifies the game, but the game has been modified countless times over the year, so if it didn't stop it before, it shouldn't now.

Again its all in this thread read back. Your digging was just make wild claims. Claims that all the info is listed here previously.

You were "theorizing" that T-800 is a liar, a profiteer, and lord knows what else. Unless you've got facts or evidence to back up that type of "theorizing" it's also fair to characterize it as a baseless and deeply offensive character attack.

But I completely agree that there isn't a lot (or anything, really) to "accuse" of!

No, you read into that. I "theorized" that he was lying about the reason. That's fine, it's not like he's lying about drowning babies, jesus man, we all lie about things for our own reasons. And please don't claim to be so holy that you never lie.

A freaking profiteer? okay man. I guess I did theorize he may sell a one-off as a rare pinball machine now that there has been so much interest (which would be a smart move, actually). You got me there. I think somebody with deep pockets who wants a piece of boutique pinball history might want a nice game like this in their collection.

Again, my main point is that the original line of reasoning didn't add up for me. Somebody spends years developing a pinball machine, and then a shortage on a particular part stops them from pursuing that dream. Lots of people WANT the machine, and simply designing the play field to not need this part would accommodate that demand, but nope, gotta halt all production.

This is irrational behavior if true.

Anyways, I apologize for the flurry of posts. I have a habit of responding to all responses to me, which grows my number of posts quite a bit.

We don't all have to accept everything at face value. Or we can if that's more your thing. I'm happy. You're happy. Let's all be happy together.

actually that could not be further from the truth but I suppose you like to pigeonhole me so enjoy...

side note : Any non-asshats ever want to check out Wooly, then give me a heads up and we will see if schedules can sync up when you are in Madison. Happy to have others over to play.

Post summer is always best as honestly games dont get touched much around here in warm weather months.

Very Happy for you!!

Frank was a joy to chat with over the LEDs.....Glad there are some games to be enjoyed!

start parting out LWJP's!!

I'm curious why a single drop target mech is such a big secret.

facepalm.jpg

We all need to stop attacking each other. Last three pages, full of arguing, calling people stupid, etc. hats off to WOOLY team and may the 4 owners enjoy thier pins. May the rest of us be more positive in how we deal with each other. Pinside can be depressing.

Thank God, someone's finally asking the important questions!

Yeah you hit his buttons all right.

I really hope this still goes in to production with someone, I don't have the cash for NIB purchases but WOOLY is the type of game I wish stern would put out from time to time. The original art and theme are amazing on this and I like the look of the lay out. Wish there was one in Australia to play!

Looking forward to seeing the most current version at EXPO in Chicago. I would suggest you make sure it's there.

Agreed! Last couple years I've had a chance to flip it and talk to Scott, but only briefly. I'll have more time this year, don't have to double book Expo with meetings like the last couple years.

What exactly happened these last 2-3 pages of posts? Riot has been crystal clear from the beginning... if 100 people agree to purchase the game, the $8k price point could be achieved, otherwise it was a no go. So far it's a no go unless another option comes into play. Discussing cost of any part in less than quantities of 100 was never on the table.

Awesome that 4 more got built, really happy for what Scott and Frank have achieved. Now until a major change in production of the game occurs it would be nice if everyone fighting/bragging/doubting and just generally being rude or foolish in these threads would stop, that would be awesome.

Try to remember "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." In this case mouth closed would simply be not posting for those of you who can't figure this out. If you think this post is aimed at you, it probably is. If you don't think it's aimed at you, well it still probably is but your simply too ignorant to realize it.

Again Scott and Frank what you have achieved is awesome and I hope whatever your dream is for this game's future is realized for you.

I was just going to say something about the innovative comment. Same here is the same I told people that thought WOZ was innovative. Sure it had some new toys and lighting/display ideas, but that isn't innovative. Innovative is something that completely changes how you play the game. revolutionary aspects that completely change the way pinball will be made and designed from that point forward. That's innovation. P2k was innovative. P3 is Innovative. Everything else is just new games being developed the same way it's been done for awhile.

I'm in NY and got my deposit money refunded.. and when I did I told Scott I would send that money back his way anytime he asked. That still stands now and will continue to.

BTW - This thread needs a troll bomb..

Catching up with 100+ posts on WOOLY... Give me a 16h break away from Pinside (that was my anniversary!!) and drama on my favorite game starts! In no logical order:

This. What a waste...
If someone could invest in a P-Roc homebrew small assembly boutique...

Agreed with the general idea. But what is best? Have only one large manufacturer releasing 2 games per year, or one large manufacturer and a number of boutique manufacturers? Variety is good! I prefer to have the choice between several options rather than be tied to a single source.

Regarding my game, it won't be relagated in a basement. First because I organize public tourneys in my home every 3-5 months, second because I will bring the game to conventions.

I still have to find out which favors Scott owns me then.
(all I did was being first to order?)

From all the conversations I had with you (going back 2 years now?) I can definitely attest to that.

Looking forward to seeing your game (with no sarcasm implied; the more games, the better).
Just a comment: from the nightmare Antonio (Quetzal) experience with pinball parts, believe supply ability when the parts are delivered... and double-check specifications

Agreed - P3 is (by far) the most innovative. WOOLY has some innovative shots and rules, but no earth-shattering innovation. But it is the coolest game I have played for a long time!

See the bright side: now I am giving thumb ups to your posts!

Granted. I guess Hilton and I both think this game deserves a larger run so that everyone who wanted one can get one. Building more prototypes (in a Circus maximus way - 12 prototypes) is a way to increase exposure and interest. Hopefully attracting some investor. Giving Wooly a new chance to be "mass"-produced.

While I tend to agree with everything you wrote, keep in mind the pinball community is perhaps nostalgic for a lost golden age, worshiping legendary designers... We need Legends, but we also need fresh blood.

well said sir. Super glad your getting a game.

That is the truth of it all. This is not the best news ever but this small victory and a chance at a future.

Everyone's chances of playing this game just went up a little bit.

In France anyway.