Right now we are more concerned with the music replacement. The sound effects are not proprietary, but it's possible to replace them today if you know the filenames (which we could provide).

That is exactly my point. Look I know a lot of effort went in to this project. I know there is a lot in the BOM for this game but unfortunately I don't think it warrants 8K. If this could be mass produced and sold for 5 to 6K it would sell like hot cakes.

The MSRP is higher, I know that is not what anyone pays though. $7600 is probably closer to the norm but that is essentially 8K to me and you are buying an unknown game that won't have finished code for 2 years if ever. I'd gladly pay $400 more for a known product that I like. After pretty much no code updates for TWDLE I'm done with stern NIB until there business model changes. Spooky is gaining traction because everyone else keeps failing and they have a solid known product.

I agree that $6500 is probably the magic number but I'm not sure with a lower production run that they can get to that. Time will tell. It will be in be interesting to see if 8K really is to much for anyone because prices are not going to go down. Companies may close but I don't see a price drop coming. If anything I expect JJP's third game to come it at 9K or higher.

Keep in mind though that the $7600 price includes shipping. I presume the $8k WOOLY price doesn't, unless I'm wrong about that?

So we're really looking at more like an $800 difference. And this is from a Stern LE, same gameplay is available for $6500 for a Premium.

I'm not trying to bag on WOOLY here! I'm just saying, the landscape is what it is. IMHO $6500 is already damn expensive for a game, it's just hard to keep climbing past that. Obviously not everyone feels that way, but a lot do, and it's a tough thing to sell.

I love Spooky, Chuck is great, Ben is great, I support what they're doing. But AMH is selling because they were able to price it reasonably. Ben and I talk a lot, I'm pretty confident he'd have zero argument with saying that AMH would have been a failure at $8k.

IMHO these are just the realities of the market, and small companies are just going to have to challenge themselves to work within that pricing structure. If Riot can come back with a new pitch and sell 100 games to people for $8k then more power to them! But that's a tough road.

I agree, all good points

Yeah, the 8k price point drove me away from getting my favourite pin of all time (MM). To come in at the same price point as that is overstepping a bit.

when I saw the game last year at York, I asked what it would cost. I was told something like same as a typical new pin, the price was not set, but I gathered that meant it would be in the $6500 range. Please recall, WOZ was initially sold at $6500. Please note, AcDc LEs were probably similar.

WOOLY (when shipped) will be $8300 (I presume shipping is extra).

It was not until MMR that that people started thinking $8000 was an acceptable number. I know Jpop was higher. But by and large the pinball market is probably a bell shaped curve in the $1000 - $10,000 range, I am talking new and used but probably 96% fall in the "less than $8300 category".

I have been following the MMR cycle, and at first people were over the moon and were excited to buy one, I was too. Then, I figured for $8300 (with shipping) I would be looking at roughly what I'd pay for an IMVE plus Met pro (call it $9200 for the two, less if I was willing to buy HUO). MMR cooled off real quick with me, and I think many others.

Note, I am just ball parking this statistic, we do see BBB here and there and maybe a BIBLE or Tron LE pass that mark, but by and large, $8300 (in essence = almost two pins).

Add to the fact that it's a pre-order (ie. money in advance) and it's almost un-sellable.

Sure there are a few people that would still buy it, but I am saying un-sellable in the numbers that they say are needed to get it off the ground.

You want to charge whatever, that's fine build it and see what people are willing to pay. This paying in advance is over for me. I got back all my deposits, and I'm not doing it ever again.

Any thoughts of adding configurable variables to select a starting point in the track other than the beginning?

One of the aspects that makes Metallica so good is how it kicks in right at the perfect point in the songs as the modes/multiballs start. Sometimes the beginning of the song really isn't a great place to start it to go along with the mode. Its especially true for short timed modes that may only last 20 or 30 seconds.

The catch 22 with this whole project is that if it were already built and sitting at distributors, I think it would sell.
Sending cash for a pin you haven't played is a tough sell.
You need to hook players first. Make them forget about the price tag, and fall in love with it.

Hmm, that sounds interesting. I will look into adding an option for the start point in a song, that could be really useful. Thanks for the suggestion.

ok, this is definitely possible. As a test, I added a configuration option for all 20 tracks where you specify the starting point in the song from the service menu. You can configure each song to start at the beginning or any point during the song. In this example, song track1.ogg starts at the 68th second in the song.
alt_track_start.jpg
There are 2 things to remember. Any tracks that use the same audio track (multiple hurryups, etc) will start at the same start point designated. There are only a few tracks that are duplicated in the mapping. Also, if you replace the alternate soundtrack with another alternate soundtrack, you'll have to adjust the values for the new tracks.
Of course I'll have to go through the entire game and add the start point code, but this would work as suggested.

Along the lines of customizing music and sound effects, will it be possible to have a set of tracks that are chosen at random to play instead of the same one each time? Not sure if this makes a whole lot of sense for music, but I could see doing this for call outs and sound effects (I think I heard that AMH does this for call outs).

Anyway, keep up the good work. Still hoping you guys bring WOOLY to MGC in April.

Yes, many places in the game already have random sound effects and unique call outs when hit consecutively. Unique meaning you have to hear all of the 'group of call outs' before you hear the same one again. This keeps it fresh and less redundant. This isn't anything new, as most modern games do this.

I think this game started off as a Chevy and evolved into a Cadillac. Nothing inherently wrong with that, as the design team kept adding feature upon feature which drove the price up. However, once it got past the price of a Buick, they lost my attention...

You mean a Cimarron? A Chevy Cavalier at a Cadillac price.

Cadillac_Cimarron_2_--_07-01-2009.jpg

I don't think it's accurate to say the project evolved like that, it was clear before even the first whitewood what it would be, since it's based on the virtual pin game. It's just that virtual games don't have BOMs, and in the real world when you have 6 flippers and an upper playfield etc it starts to add up.

$8k was an acceptable price for MM which was going for $10-12k. Most people cringe at anything else at that level, unless you're talking a super-exclusive Jpop title, which only required a couple dozen people willing to throw the price of a car at what remains to be vaporware after 4 years. Beyond that $8k is a tough price point, more like a market ceiling at this point. Regardless of what some JJP and Stern titles can sell for they were all initially under the $8k level.

WOOLY is lacking the production numbers that Stern and JJP can use to bring the costs down, so it's in a tough spot, but the effort put into it looks great.

I can tell you the virtual game has 10-15 percent of the rules of the current real game. That 85-90 percent of rules has evolved over the past 18 months and was a collaborative effort.

There were no animations, few callouts and 8 songs in the virtual game. It was a great vision and together we've continued on, deepening and widening the storyline, bringing Scotts original vision to fruition and beyond.

Maybe you should polish up the virtual game and sell it as an iPhone game to help fund the real thing.

Nice ride! Come to think of it, weren't these sweet sleds built on your side of the border?

Maybe, maybe not. Very early on I was told the price point would be less than $6500--perhaps even more toward 6K. The early concept of the game probably would have made that, but as improvements were added on the the price climbed. I really like the (almost) finished product, just more than I'm willing to pay for a pinball.

Awesome! And done within a matter of hours no less!

Well I don't want to discount all the work that went into the code, at all. Time is money. But the actual design of the machine is pretty similar to the original virtual one.

That's all I was getting at. I have no idea if they didn't figure the BOM right, if they added some expensive parts, or if they're just trying to get some of their labor time back. $6500 would probably have gotten the game made.

Obviously they're not giving up, we keep seeing sweet code updates! I really admire the approach to the options on this one, lots of features that are aimed straight at home users, and that's refreshing.

ok, I finished adding the start point coding to the rest of the game and tested it last night.

As a test, I took the soundtrack to the 1981 animated movie Heavy Metal and configured the timing in the service menu. There is some great music in this soundtrack (Sammy Hagar, Nazareth, Stevie Nicks, Journey, Devo, etc) and pinpointing the exact riff to start a mode from one of the tracks is nice.

I also added random music from the alternate tracks for the end of game music. This way you hear a random track everytime it's GAME OVER. The selection plays for 45 seconds and fades out. Of course I could adjust this.

Next time we'll see what other features were added to version 1.06

if the track loops, when it loops does it start back at the beginning or at the offset?

When a track loops, it disregards the new starting point and starts back at the beginning.
For songs this is fine since you have over a minute in a mode and can hear more of the song, but if you want to loop just a small segment of a song, you can make that segment a track (cut the song with audacity) and the mixer will loop that small track over and over again.

Here is a comprehensive list of the new additions to version 1.06

* Added onscreen values to the jackpot/super jackpot screen in minotaur MB, medusa MB, zeus MB, pandoras box MB, and Ares.

* Alternate track music starting point

* Sound memory allocation increased to 1.5GB to prevent buffer underruns (for long songs).

* TITAN WAR mode added to the combos. Collect 10 characters during combos and start the Titan War mode! When the war is over (all balls drain) regular gameplay continues. This ties the collecting of the characters with the start of an actual titan war, which makes the combos more meaningful and lucrative.

* Bonus countdown music changed to take advantage of the alternate soundtrack

* Cauldron animation for stygian witches mystery at upper entry
In normal play mystery awards are sword, shield, helmet, spear with point values awarded.
Upper entry (behind the helmet) enables the weapon for 2x DAMAGE to the gods (weapon is lost at the end of the battle). This helps the player get further through the tough god battles.

* Uncover Weapon & animation
Hit shield bumper when battling a god for a random weapon. Get a weapon, then enable it at the upper entry for 2x damage.
When battling a god, weapons are Shield of Ajax, Armour of Achilles, Helm of darkness, Aegis shield, Aword of Peleus

No one can deny that the programming of this machine is right up there with WoZ.

Looks great. Silly question: Is "weapon" the most appropriate term for a Shield, Armour or Helm ?

This whole project is simply outstanding. If WOOLY doesn't get built in some numbers it'll be an aggravated 1st degree felony against pinball.

I know the theme might not be for everyone, but IMHO it's fresh and far from the well-worn licensed themes we've seen over the last several years. We haven't seen a mythology theme since the 80s, after all, and I think it's a timeless theme with appeal all over western culture. The theme integration to include the great rules and AMAZING artwork is absolutely top-notch.

Completely agree that the coding is just as good as anything out there, and that's REALLY saying something. Frank is doing some truly innovative stuff with the audio on top of the incredibly deep ruleset. PinSound Studio-type functionality accessible from the coin door? WOW.

Maybe "Tools of War" instead of "weapon"?

Preaching to the Choir in my case!

... and that's my main issue with Wooly: if I get one, I will be forced to add a Bally Medusa side-by-side

Thanks guys for the ideas and comments!

I think I will remove the UNCOVER WEAPON screen and just show you the 5 "tools of war" as cycled images, and identify the found item (Aegis sword, etc). It will be up to your imagination what you would call that item you just found that helps you to defeat the gods

1.06.gif

I have to add to this thread and just say first off that, I think it is absolutely AWESOME that luvthatapex2 is actually sitting on Pinside, taking people's thought's ideas and suggestions and then live coding them into the game. You kidding me!!!??? THAT IS...AWESOME!!!

I saw WOOLY for the first time at Allentown last year. The game blew everyone away that saw and looked at it. These guys did an exceptional job on this machine and it deserves to get produced and into the hands of those that will want them. I think that will be a lot of people.

As for price, hey, these guys are putting boat loads of time into this thing. I think $6,500 would be ideal, but fully understand that they could lose some serious money at that price point. I do however think that if you incorporated an LED into the back glass as opposed to the DMD, that would push the price up to the $7,500 level. And sometimes, when you're first starting out, you take a little bit of a loss. But you prove yourself and come out with another pin and then you make more profit.

All that said. WOOLY is going to be such an awesome pin. Thanks guys for all your hard work in making this a reality. Good luck moving forward. I hope everything goes smoothly the rest of the way. I hope that you guys will be attending Allentown this year as well as Pintastic in July. It would be awesome to see you guys there. A lot of New Englanders are interested in seeing this game.

WHEN and WHERE can I play this next?

Are you guys coming to MGC?

You can cuddle up with me if you need a place to crash Frank

WHERE DID WOOLY GO?.. WAIT A MINUTE... WHERE DID WHYSNOW GO?

I have to agree here. I was in on the WOOLY pre-order, but a game at this price with a standard DMD feels wrong. If nothing else, I look at the DP guys that converted the original BoP2.0 to fantastic color dots. To me, that is the minimum that a premium game like this should have. HiRes LCD animations would be cool, but full color dots at least. With JJP and all the ColorDMD/SmartDMD games getting colorized, it really leaves this display feeling dated. Every other aspect of the game is/will be fantastic.

I see no way of an lcd being implemented due to higher cost, and think a dmd is a great fit for this game. Agree that the the dots should be colorized, at a minimum. This would increase the value and make the game even more interesting. Same can be said of using controlled coloring on backbox and enhancing the sound system. Imagine the bom would increase slightly from these three upgrades, but if the selling price was held or even lowered to 7k through cost savings efforts, maybe we could get this train rolling again.

I feel a major stumbling block of WOOLY was the less than desired speech and music package. Both of these were being worked further as were the game rules. Can't wait to see some new vids that reveal all this good work. Help me, help you to put one of these in my house.

It also highlights the fact that the other pinball companies programmers aren't doing their jobs properly ... Or are not allowed to do their jobs properly. One or the other.

I've said it a lot ... Code updates should take days (including testing) .... not months. Or years. Crazy.

rd.

Well, to defend Stern, they're not a boutique shop working out of a garage - they are mass producing coin operated equipment that will be used by the public at large so they have a much larger liability issue to deal with.

They have to thoroughly test every aspect of the software to ensure the machine operates as expected, won't burn out coils or lamps due to fault, won't catch on fire, etc. Also, most operators will never update the software from what it came with, so engineering efforts on old games really only take away from new games in terms of their stated market.

This is a fine point, you need to come in under price when you are starting out, not at max price of the number one pin of all time (MMR), even at that, I think MMR is priced too high.

When Lexus was starting out, they had their sights set on MB and BMW (heck they practically traced the big Benz), but they didn't/couldn't price at the same level as the established brands, they had to underprice their cars to sell.

Hyundai is doing the same thing now with it's big sedan which traces the Lexus for a heck of a lot less. It's just the way things work.

If I am buying something, a TV or a car or whatever. If there are two choices one is the established benchmark and the other is a company trying to get on it's feet. The fledgling company has to be priced lower.

Now we want to compare MMR (best game of all time, has LCD which could be colorized), or we have JJP which offers LCD as well and JJP #3 I know nothing yet will have the designer of TZ and TAF and the code from the creator of WoZ, TSPP, LOTR etc..

If WOOLY costs as much as those two examples, I think it's a hard sell. Great dots and great rules but there is just not enough stuff included for $8K (IMO).

I'll try to get to Allentown and this is the game I need to see.

Is the difference in price for a small production run of a DMD vs an LED screen really that much? I have seen lots of LED monitors and tvs for less than you can pick up a DMD from any store I know of.

That's a great way of putting it.

LCD screens are cheaper than DMDs, but you have to have hardware that can drive them, and assets that are designed for it. So it's not a trivial swap, but there's no reason why you couldn't save on the BOM with one if you did it right.

The $50 you save on the BOM will go nowhere towards paying the $10,000s that it would cost to create all the colour video for a LCD display.

rd.

I will never preorder again, but I will buy a WOOLY if it is built.

Hopefully it will be at the Chicago Expo in October and Hilton can share the WOOLY love with me

Look forward to playing it.

rd.

I do have to laugh how recently everyone thinks they are an expert on the BOM for this game or what is was missing in your opinion to make it happen.

I know we are all internet heros with IQs >140, but it is pretty silly to think any of us have a real clue about what the BOM for WOOLY is/was.

There are probably 10 people that can even come close and aside from Scott and Frank, even those guys could be wrong.

LMK when all of you go build a game and then want to share your hard numbers for BOM

Even Scott and Frank could be wrong! You always forget something.
Guess one only knows the real BOM per game when production ends.

Thanks for the reply, I actually meant for that to be a general question not really specific to WOOLY.

Back to the game in specific, I really like what I hear with every code update. Hopefully something will be figured out fairly soon and the game can go forward. I would really like to be able to play it some time.