(Topic ID: 298996)

WPT - Supplier for IC VN02N?

By killerrobots

59 days ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 36 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 45 days ago by ChrisHibler
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

0814211105_HDR (1) (resized).jpg
0814211108 (resized).jpg
Screenshot 2021-08-14 111438 (resized).png
0820211553_HDR (resized).jpg
0822210956_HDR (resized).jpg
0822211012 (resized).jpg
Screenshot 2021-08-14 101053 (resized).png
0814211108 (resized).jpg
Screenshot 2021-08-14 111438 (resized).png

#1 59 days ago

I have a #WPT and am missing an entire lamp column. I have been banging my head against this for two weeks now and I am almost certain that the problem is the IC. All the inputs match other ICs but the outputs are different. I have replaced the IC 3 times now with the same result. I have traced every path, checked every resistor and diode and all that I can find different is the IC.

I have been ordering my IC's from Marco but now I am wondering if this is actually the right IC. Here is the original IC from the manual (U15):

Screenshot 2021-08-14 111438 (resized).png

and here is the Marco part which comes up with that Stern part number:

0814211108 (resized).jpg

Can any electronics guru out there help me find another replacement for this? I have looked but can't find anything that seems to match.

#2 59 days ago

Correct part.
Obsolete. No replacement.
Only way to buy these now is through Chinese questionable sources which is why I don't stock them.
It's possible Marco got a bad batch but it is also possible that you are comparing two different die revisions to each other.

Measuring between pins 4 and 5 is actually measuring the difference between two independent outputs. That measurement won't tell you anything.

#3 59 days ago

Well I see, can I ask what you recommend to check it?

Here is the actual circuit diagram:

Screenshot 2021-08-14 101053 (resized).png

So in the machine during "All Lamps" test, I am comparing the inputs (pin 2,4) and getting the same values on U17 (working) and U15 (not working). I am also seeing the same input voltage Pin 3 (~16v) on all of them.

However, output 5 on U15 is a fraction of what it is on all the others. The only other difference I see is that when I measure from pin 1 (ground) to the board ground I see a small voltage on the working ones but nothing on U15. I don't have any idea what this means but it is different.

When the board is out and I test conductivity on all pins (1-5) to their source and got connections. I tested all the resistors and they all test correct. I tested all the diodes and they all test the same as the others.

I can't find anything wrong other than the output of the IC which is why I am questioning it.

#4 59 days ago

For context, when I got this game one lamp column was out. I investigated the playfield and found one lamp socket that had been crushed behind the backboard and very likely shorted. I fixed this. It still didn't work and I replaced the IC but it also didn't work. I then found that the small 47ohm SM resistor on U15 was registering 0ohms. I found a replacement and changed it. Now it measures 47ohm to ground like all the others. However, I note this because that is one variable. I am decent at soldering but it is possible I did something wrong here but if I did I can't detect it. Also the fact that in the live condition the ground pin to board ground measures different makes me question if there is something wrong here.

Additionally, I don't really understand this part but when the board is out of game and I use "diode mode" on my multimeter and check various pins between U17 and U15 they are different.

Anyway, at this point I am not sure what else to check.

#5 59 days ago

Just bumping this up to see if anyone has any advice on how to definitively check to see if this IC is bad or it is just me checking it wrong.

#6 59 days ago

Actually a solid state relay with internal control circuit and logic - no easy way to test these.

#7 58 days ago

Well not the news I wanted but thanks.

#8 58 days ago

If your desoldering skills are adequate, swap the questionable VN02 with a known good VN02 on the board.
It's a bit brute force but it will tell you whether the part is good or not.
VN02 parts don't fail very often. I have never had to replace one.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#9 58 days ago

Thanks Chris, that is an excellent idea. I just ordered a desoldering gun and will try it when I get it.

#10 58 days ago

Can you take the playfield out of the equation (i.e. disconnect the lamps) and measure on the pins directly? I'd think it's far more likely that there was an issue on the PF hiding somewhere vs. that many parts being bad (including the original)

Then you could check input vs. output with as few other factors in play as needed to really narrow it down.

#11 58 days ago

I am also going to check the board again with the IC out. Odds are that it is more likely that I am doing something wrong than I have a bad IC but I can't figure out what.

Also thanks for the link to pinwiki, nice reference. Now I know why it shows switch 1 and 2 in the service menu and they aren't used in the game.

#12 58 days ago
Quoted from slochar:

Can you take the playfield out of the equation (i.e. disconnect the lamps) and measure on the pins directly? I'd think it's far more likely that there was an issue on the PF hiding somewhere vs. that many parts being bad (including the original)
Then you could check input vs. output with as few other factors in play as needed to really narrow it down.

I did that and I get about 25% the voltage on the bad column versus the others so I am pretty sure it is the board.

#13 58 days ago

For context, there was a crushed socket in the back of the game when I got it and I am almost certain it shorted at some point (replaced). When I checked the board previously the 47ohm resistor to ground was dead at 0 ohms (replaced) so I am pretty sure there was damage to the board during the assumed short. The problem is that everything I check now looks good except for the IC output. It makes sense that something else is damaged but I don't know what else to check. When I check the board live the inputs to the "bad" IC match those of the others so it seems like it is getting good inputs but the main output (pin 5) and the ground pin measure different than the others. I keep thinking I screwed up installing the tiny 47ohm resistor to ground but I get connectivity and it reads 47 ohms both ways so I think it is right.

I have changed the IC three times but from the same supplier (Marco) so my thought was that maybe it wasn't actually the right IC for this game (mis-labeled, whatever). That was why I was looking for an alternative supplier but the idea to swap them should resolve that question.

#14 58 days ago

The earlier SAM machines used the REVISION A of the I/O board, Part 520-5249-00 which had the VN02A solid state relay. When they switched to LED insert lamps, the released REVISION D of the same board, and designed out the VN02A, and switched to the VND5160J. The short story is neither of these are commonly available now at the part level, but as Chris stated, it's very rare that these solid state relays fail.

Perhaps there is something else going on here? Maybe the VN02A is not the issue at all? When you say the 47ohn resistor is now measuring 0 ohms, a big red flag goes up as it's almost unimaginable that a resistor 'fails' in this fashion. I think there is something else going on here.

#15 58 days ago

So here is the order of repairs I have done:

1. Found broken lamp socket, replaced
2. IC-15 measured weird, replaced (still not working)
3. Carefully checked the board and found R139 measured 0ohms, carefully changed it but still not working
4. Changed IC-15 again thinking I might have burnt it out with bad R139 but still not working
5. Checked everything on the board again and couldn't find anything but changed IC-15 again and of course still not working

Maybe today I will just start from scratch and measure everything again and make sure I didn't miss something.

If you guys have some advice on what to check I would love that but I will do this:

Out of Game Check:
1. Connectivity of all traces back to source
2. Check resistors
3. Check diodes

In Game Check (during "All Lamp Test" with connector OFF)
1. Voltage into Pin 2
2. Voltage into Pin 4
3. Supply Voltage on Pin 3
4. Voltage Out at Pin 5 and on Connector Pin
5. Voltage across R139 (between Pin 1 and ground)

In Game Check (during "All Lamp Test" with connector ON)
1. Voltage into Pin 2
2. Voltage into Pin 4
3. Supply Voltage on Pin 3
4. Voltage Out at Pin 5 and on Connector Pin
5. Voltage across R139 (between Pin 1 and ground)

Because this is a IC I guess there is no way to check it directly. I can't swap it today until I get my desoldering gun but as you say it seems unlikely 3 ICs are bad.

As always this will likely end up being something simple but it only seems simple after the fact....

#16 58 days ago

Okay so I went through the entire board again and couldn't find anything different other than the IC outputs.

With "All Lamps" everything is flashing and the inputs are all cycling so I am not sure the best way to read live voltage but I did my best and was really looking to see how it compared to the working IC-17. Sometimes I switched to VAC as this seemed to get a clearer reading. I wish there was a way to set a lamp to just be "on" but doesn't seem to be an option in test mode. Here are my notes:

0822211012 (resized).jpg

The differences were:

1. Voltage across 47ohm resistors (Pin 1 to board ground) was something like 0-.3vdc on U17 but almost zero on U15
2. Output voltage was 6-11vac on U17 and .6-1 on U15
3. Output voltage when unplugged was slightly different on U15 .03-.05vac

All connections, resistors, diodes checkout on the bench.

Here is a picture of the board, solder is not perfect but not bad (U15 is the second IC on the far left column):

0822210956_HDR (resized).jpg

I also wanted to make sure I didn't have some weird short across IC pins so here is a view with a bright light behind:

0820211553_HDR (resized).jpg

Am I crazy, doesn't this have to be the IC?

#17 58 days ago

Probably yes.
Do as Chris said -- swap in a known good one there to be sure that the problem is with the new SSRs you are getting are good or bad.
Or safer -> Pull a known good one out, put it into static shielding bag, put new SSR in that location and make sure that column still works. If not then the new SSRs are bad. If new SSR works for this column then the column driven by U15 may be shorted.
Important - these have FET transistors on the outputs. These are VERY susceptible to ESD (static) damage. These should always be stored within static shielding bags (silver or black) and not anti-static bags (pink) and never regular bags (clear).

Going from your information:
The differences were:
1. Voltage across 47ohm resistors (Pin 1 to board ground) was something like 0-.3vdc on U17 but almost zero on U15
This says the part is consuming nearly no power... but it consumes very little power anyways.

2. Output voltage was 6-11vac on U17 and .6-1 on U15
Points to U15's internal FET not turning on (bad)

3. Output voltage when unplugged was slightly different on U15 .03-.05vac
Points to U15's internal FET not turning on (bad)

#18 58 days ago

Okay, thanks for the info and confirmation. I probably have an anti-static bag somewhere...

It is worth noting that Marco ships them in a regular bag.

I am also now wondering if the original IC was never actually bad but it was just the 47ohm resistor. I changed them both but still have the old one. The legs are partially cut off but I might try installing it back in. Although if it shorted to ground that probably isn't good for the IC.

I will need to wait for my desoldering gun to try it but I feel like I at least have a direction now. I can't seem to de-solder all five legs with my basic suction tube thingy.

Thanks a lot of the help.

#19 55 days ago

So I desoldered the IC today and removed a good IC. I then took the Marco IC and put it in the spot of the good IC circuit and it didn't work. So I think that is confirmation that this IC is not the right part.

Unfortunately I was hoping that my old IC that I originally removed might still be good (because resistor was actually) bad but after reinstalling it still didn't work so is probably bad.

Am I screwed now? I see I can buy an entirely new board for like $500 but that seems like overkill. Where could I look for someone who has a bunch of old boards and I could steal the IC from that?

#20 55 days ago

You can send the board to me if you'd like.
I can repair it the correct way. I have the parts but I am not a parts seller.

When you say IC, are you referring to the VN02?

If you'd like me to repair the board, following is the link to the shipping form and instructions.
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact

--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#21 55 days ago

It is U-15 on the I/O Power Driver Board, VN02N. Is your turnaround still around 60 days? The game is playable right now and I just got it so I might play it for a few months and then send it in. You wouldn't consider just sending me the IC? It is probably 5 minutes to solder it back in. I am happy to pay but don't really want to wait 2 months.

#22 55 days ago

just reading the thread randomly, can you explain what the difference is between the part you're receiving from Marco and what you expect the part to be (per the manual)?

#23 55 days ago
Quoted from killerrobots:

Is your turnaround still around 60 days?

I can turn your board right away. I know how to fix it correctly.

Quoted from killerrobots:

You wouldn't consider just sending me the IC? It is probably 5 minutes to solder it back in.

Sorry. I'll have to install the parts. And, if it still doesn't work, I'll track down the real root cause.

Send the old part, and the parts from Marco too. I'll be able to test them.

--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#24 55 days ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

I can turn your board right away. I know how to fix it correctly.

Sorry. I'll have to install the parts. And, if it still doesn't work, I'll track down the real root cause.
Send the old part, and the parts from Marco too. I'll be able to test them.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Chris that would be great, thank you. I don't have an anti-static bag big enough. You suggest to wrap it in aluminum foil. I am guessing just one layer and then into a plastic bag in a padded box?

#25 55 days ago
Quoted from misterschu:

just reading the thread randomly, can you explain what the difference is between the part you're receiving from Marco and what you expect the part to be (per the manual)?

They should be identical but the new ones aren't working in the board. Here is the manual part number and here is the Marco part.

0814211108 (resized).jpgScreenshot 2021-08-14 111438 (resized).png
#26 55 days ago

Wrapping in a single layer of aluminum foil is perfect.
Enough padding to keep the board from bouncing around in the box.
Box adequate to protect the board.
I suspect the Marco parts were either damaged in shipping or may even be counterfeits, in which case we need to let Marco know.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#27 55 days ago
Quoted from killerrobots:

They should be identical but the new ones aren't working in the board. Here is the manual part number and here is the Marco part.

what does the actual transistor say on it?

#28 55 days ago
Quoted from misterschu:

what does the actual transistor say on it?

New Marco one on the right and old one on left.

0814211105_HDR (1) (resized).jpg
1 week later
#29 46 days ago

Well, I suspect the VN02 Pentawatt devices sold by Marco are counterfeits.
I repaired this board today using an NOS VN02 I had purchased from G-P-E ages ago.
It's good to go now.


--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#30 46 days ago

Thanks a bunch, Chris.

#31 46 days ago

Happy to help.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#32 46 days ago

Good to know you diagnosed it correctly. Wasn't your fault you ended up with counterfeit parts. Unfortunately, an issue that isn't going away. Glad it's all fixed up.

#33 46 days ago

Yeah it is good to know I wasn't just doing something dumb but it sucks if someone needs a new one of these because I believe Marco is the only supplier. Marco is aware of the issue and has been very responsive. I need to send them the exact lot numbers of the ICs I got and I think they will pull them but I don't know if they have any more.

#34 46 days ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Well, I suspect the VN02 Pentawatt devices sold by Marco are counterfeits.
I repaired this board today using an NOS VN02 I had purchased from G-P-E ages ago.
It's good to go now.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Awesome for the OP, really terrible news for all WPT (and other Sterns that use this) owners.....and want-to-be-owners-again such as myself. WPT is to be the basis of my Voltron custom pin if I can ever get back to it. It's really unfortunate that with older components there's so many easily substitute-workable replacements for obsolete components, but these bloody IC's that aren't even 20 years old are impossible to find.

#35 46 days ago
Quoted from Frax:

Awesome for the OP, really terrible news for all WPT (and other Sterns that use this) owners.....and want-to-be-owners-again such as myself. WPT is to be the basis of my Voltron custom pin if I can ever get back to it. It's really unfortunate that with older components there's so many easily substitute-workable replacements for obsolete components, but these bloody IC's that aren't even 20 years old are impossible to find.

It’s the nature of the semi industry. Try to find any of the workhorse SN74xx chips these days and you’ll struggle the same way, but 25 years ago they were used for everything.

#36 45 days ago
Quoted from Frax:

Awesome for the OP, really terrible news for all WPT (and other Sterns that use this) owners.....and want-to-be-owners-again such as myself. WPT is to be the basis of my Voltron custom pin if I can ever get back to it. It's really unfortunate that with older components there's so many easily substitute-workable replacements for obsolete components, but these bloody IC's that aren't even 20 years old are impossible to find.

In all the years since these boards have been in games, this is the very first VN02 that I've had to replace.
I don't think they fail often.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside