(Topic ID: 298649)

WPT - Help Tracing Lamp Issue on Board

By killerrobots

2 years ago


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WPTU9 (resized).png
0814211105_HDR (resized).jpg
0814211108 (resized).jpg
Screenshot 2021-08-14 111438 (resized).png
WPTu15 (resized).png
Screenshot 2021-08-14 101053 (resized).png
#1 2 years ago

I have a #WPT and here is the situation:

1. I am missing an entire lamp column (03 - IC-U15)
2. A lamp socket was broken and dangling and I think very likely shorted (now replaced)
3. When I measure the pin on the board for the broken column it measures different than the other pins when in "All Lamp" test mode (So I am pretty confident it is on the board) It has voltage but it is maybe 25% of the others (it fluctuates so it is hard to pin down exactly)
4. I had previously measured the transistor and it measured weird so I replaced it (it now seems to be the same)
5. I had previously measured the small 47ohm resistor and it measured 0 ohm so I replaced it (it now seems to be the same)

I reinstalled it and it still doesn't work. I remeasured the voltage on the pin and it is still much less than the others (however it still has some voltage). I traced all the traces in the circuit and they all connect. The diode seems to measure right, the transistor matches the others (however I am not 100% sure how to properly measure this, I am using diode on my multimeter and just checking it matches the others) and the resistors seem to match. I am kind of stumped as to what to check next (or recheck) and would love some help. Here is the circuit. I don't see any obvious damage and the transistor is getting 18v.

Screenshot 2021-08-14 101053 (resized).pngScreenshot 2021-08-14 101053 (resized).png

#2 2 years ago

Just a note that during "Column Test", on a working column I measure about 8.5 VAC on the pin and on the not-working column I measure 2.5 VAC.

#3 2 years ago

It sounds to me like you need to replace U15. The columns 1 through 8 are driven by IC-U17 through IC-U10. The wires are all in connector J13, pins 9-3 and pin 1.

So if you're measuring at J13 and only column 3 (J13-P7) is different I suspect U15. You could put a logic probe on it and test.

You said,

Quoted from killerrobots:

4. I had previously measured the transistor and it measured weird so I replaced it

which transistor are you referring to in that sentence? The rows have transistors but the columns have the ICs listed above. U15 is shown in the attached screenshot.

WPTu15 (resized).pngWPTu15 (resized).png
#4 2 years ago

So I am wondering if I ordered the right IC (sorry that is what I meant by transistor).

So I just pulled the board again and tested everything again.

The only differences I found was that the 6.8k resistor measured 7.2k, that doesn't seem like a big difference to me but maybe.

Also, when measured the IC on U17 (working) I got:

2->5 = 2.5v
4->5 = 2.5v

On U15 I got:

2->5 = 1.4v
4->5 = 2.5v

So now I am thinking it may not be the right IC (or I got a bad one?).
Screenshot 2021-08-14 111438 (resized).pngScreenshot 2021-08-14 111438 (resized).png

Here is what I got from Marco which seems to be the right part number:

0814211108 (resized).jpg0814211108 (resized).jpg

0814211105_HDR (resized).jpg0814211105_HDR (resized).jpg

#5 2 years ago

Looks like the right part to me.

Ok, pin 2 is the input. Low voltage there will result in bad output. 6.8k ohms is 6800, you're measuring 7200 (at R138?). 340 ohms would be 5% tolerance, you're at 400 ohms difference and the schematic calls for an SM 0805 Film 6.8KΩ 1/10W 5%

How is the voltage before it gets to the resistor? The little bit of extra resistance you're getting shouldn't drop the voltage that much.
U9 pin 6 feeds the resistor. Screenshot attached.

WPTU9 (resized).pngWPTU9 (resized).png
#6 2 years ago

To be clear, the low voltage on Pin 2 is me measuring with the board out of the machine and my multimeter on "diode" and looking at negative/black on 2 and positive/red on 4 or 5. The 6.8k resistor is not in that test, I am just directly testing the legs of the IC. I have never been 100% sure how to test this so I may be doing it wrong.

I am guessing I would need to put the board back in the machine and test the input voltage to leg 2 during a test, correct? I will note that I do have connectivity between leg 2 and the resistor and between the resistor and pin 6 of the chip.

#7 2 years ago

If my understanding is correct pin 2 of the IC is the activation signal from the program and pin 4 is the clock signal. Essentially there is an "and" gate in the IC that needs both pin 2 and pin 4 to be high. What is weird to me is that I am getting any voltage out at all. If either pin 2 or pin 4 wasn't getting a signal then nothing would get out. Getting 25% of the voltage seems like it must be the IC but it is brand new.

#8 2 years ago

Also, I did change R139 and it is super tiny and SM. I am pretty sure I got it but it is a variable. I tested conductivity between R139 and ground and R139 and leg 1 and they both work. I also read 47ohm across the resistor.

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from killerrobots:

To be clear, the low voltage on Pin 2 is me measuring with the board out of the machine and my multimeter on "diode" and looking at negative/black on 2 and positive/red on 4 or 5. The 6.8k resistor is not in that test, I am just directly testing the legs of the IC. I have never been 100% sure how to test this so I may be doing it wrong.

I'm not sure if your method will work either. I think your test is actually measuring the voltage drop using your meter's battery as the input so 9v maximum. The gate in the IC may not even function at that voltage, have to check the data sheet. Quench or GRUMPY could probably say for sure. Still curious that it's not measuring the same as the other chips. Could be that measuring in circuit isn't useful in this case, idk.

#10 2 years ago

Let me put it back in the machine and try some live tests...

#11 2 years ago

I tested it everyway I could think of and all the inputs are okay but the output is low and the ground seems different. I retested the 47ohm I reinstalled and it is properly grounded. I think it is just a bad IC. I am going to buy another and try it again.

#12 2 years ago

I'd be checking U9. If it's working right, during an all lamps test Q0-Q7 should all have the same signal.
I think the data sheet is at https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/308/1/MC74HCT273A_D-2315578.pdf but not 100% sure that's the right one.

#13 2 years ago

I checked the output of U9 to both U17 and U15 and they are the same as far as I tell. I checked all the inputs to U15 (pin 2,3,4) and they are the same as U17 but the outputs (1 and 5) are different. Pin 5 is about 25% and 1 registers 0v but on U17 it is like .25v. It seems like it has to be on the IC itself. Since the ground was not registering I though maybe I hadn't grounded the new resistor right but I double checked it and it is a solid circuit back to the IC.

In any case, thanks for your help. I will need to wait a week or so to get the new IC.

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