(Topic ID: 160185)

WPPR formula change to v5.3 for 2017!


By ifpapinball

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 99 posts
  • 18 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by ifpapinball
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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    #51 3 years ago
    Quoted from TomGWI:

    Do we even have a Milwaukee TD or location?

    nope. I have heard nothing. It may soon be the time when you and I need to discuss other options (maybe Rusty hosting? or another large private colleciton that plays good). We are already nearing mid year and I think we owe it to the players to figure something out.

    #52 3 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    nope. I have heard nothing. It may soon be the time when you and I need to discuss other options (maybe Rusty hosting? or another large private colleciton that plays good). We are already nearing mid year and I think we owe it to the players to figure something out.

    I will send Neo a PM.

    If we can't find anyone I'll check with Russ.

    #53 3 years ago
    Quoted from TomGWI:

    Josh, do you think we will see a drop off in Selfie Leagues?

    Only time will tell.

    For our selfie league here I don't believe it will. Whether our month is worth 6 WPPRs or 12 WPPRs, our group here is mainly interested in the competition. I've failed to reach A division most of the months due to the dedication of our player base.

    I can't qualify in A without showing up and playing, so that portion of the selfie league is still the most integral. It may not be worth WPPRs for that part of the process, but I can't beat Zach for the month if I'm sitting in 5th or 6th for qualifying. The only answer I have is to get off my ass, put more $$$ in the games, and keep playing.

    #54 3 years ago

    Nothing seems as crazy as in the past to me

    Question though - MGC and I'm sure some other tournaments run qualifying where you need to play three games two times apiece, and your scores for each machine are then combined to make up your ranking score for that game... so, for instance, Game A (run 1) + Game A (run 2) = qualifying position score.

    Because the scores are combined, do we need them to play at least three entries, or do we need them to play at least two entries, but on different machines (since this will give them score ranking on 2/3rds of the ranking sheets)?

    Either way is fine and I don't believe that we had anyone play less than 3 entries anyway, but just curious so we can make our software recognize what is going on.

    #55 3 years ago
    Quoted from goatdan:

    Nothing seems as crazy as in the past to me
    Question though - MGC and I'm sure some other tournaments run qualifying where you need to play three games two times apiece, and your scores for each machine are then combined to make up your ranking score for that game... so, for instance, Game A (run 1) + Game A (run 2) = qualifying position score.
    Because the scores are combined, do we need them to play at least three entries, or do we need them to play at least two entries, but on different machines (since this will give them score ranking on 2/3rds of the ranking sheets)?
    Either way is fine and I don't believe that we had anyone play less than 3 entries anyway, but just curious so we can make our software recognize what is going on.

    It's the tic tac toe method. Every breakdown you can think of better meet that 50% threshold.

    So that means you have to play 2 out of the 3 machines, AND play at least 1 out of the 2 games on that machine for the player to count as 'fully participated'.

    #56 3 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Yet we somehow find a way to grow the player base year after year
    Appreciate the concerns ... I think we'll survive this adjustment just fine and the player base will continue to grow.
    I have some exciting SCS news to share in the near future once everyone is through the 5.3 WPPR hate fest

    City Championships are starting this year... Tucson can be the first. I'll run it and do a combo event between Tucson Pinball and D&D. Set up a page that finds all "Tucson" location events (and excludes league if you want, even though we aren't full yet so wouldn't turn anyone away) and tallies them. Seriously. Make it easier on yourself than manually adding events to a custom tracking page and then hit me up. I'll pimp the crap out of it here.

    #57 3 years ago
    Quoted from desertT1:

    City Championships are starting this year... Tucson can be the first. I'll run it and do a combo event between Tucson Pinball and D&D. Set up a page that finds all "Tucson" location events (and excludes league if you want, even though we aren't full yet so wouldn't turn anyone away) and tallies them. Seriously. Make it easier on yourself than manually adding events to a custom tracking page and then hit me up. I'll pimp the crap out of it here.

    We can create a custom ranking based on city of the tournament no problem

    #58 3 years ago
    Quoted from desertT1:

    City Championships are starting this year... Tucson can be the first.

    we have started this for Madison based events. Super fun! Go for it!

    Josh set up a custom ranking for us that helps gets most of the events in it.

    #59 3 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    we have started this for Madison based events. Super fun! Go for it!
    Josh set up a custom ranking for us that helps gets most of the events in it.

    Are you including leagues, or just non-league events? Superleague would be in since it's open. Tucson Pinball League would be closed once we hit our limit, but we are still not there, so it's essentially open as of now.

    #60 3 years ago

    Glad to see the nerf to these things. Wish there was a viable way for it to have been retroactive, ha.

    I can say one thing for certain....and I was already on the fence with this after my own attempt to run a league... with these new rules in place, if you can't be bothered to show up, you're going to pay cash to have wasted everyone's time. Leagues I run from now on will have sign up fees to hopefully encourage people that don't care about the WPPRs to come out for ALL weeks of the league, and to provide for trophies that don't come out of my personal budget, not just to sign up and then rarely or never show up, when it was limited capacity in the first place.

    #61 3 years ago
    Quoted from desertT1:

    Are you including leagues, or just non-league events? Superleague would be in since it's open. Tucson Pinball League would be closed once we hit our limit, but we are still not there, so it's essentially open as of now.

    only publically open events run and based entirely in the 2016 year and run in the Madison City limits.

    We are cutting off qualifying After the Dec 17th event (last currently secheduled event of the year) and the Championship is slated to be held during the day on Dec 31st with a party to follow.

    #62 3 years ago
    Quoted from desertT1:

    It's also given my location a nice % increase in coin drop since I've started them. I'm going to double the size of my finals from 4 players to 8 to mostly make up for the loss of qualifying. If we could get to 16 players that would have happened already, but it's a small following for now. That's something that is hard to balance; I have no idea what NYC finals look like, but their numbers dwarf us so we will be affected by any corrective action.
    My events tend to be 3 points if normal participation happens.

    Same here, earnings up, final 4 is totally doable and eventually top 8 makes sense eventually for me as well at some places.
    For me it's a matter of getting new players into it that will be repeat players, it's an up hill battle and a numbers game..

    #63 3 years ago
    Quoted from TomGWI:

    Josh, do you think we will see a drop off in Selfie Leagues?
    I think this is the only negative. Not because of WPPR but because it could hurt some of the locations running them in that there could be a drop in the number of players.

    I posted this on Tilt Forums, but thought it was worth posting here as well regarding the imminent DEATH OF SELFIE LEAGUES. It's always important to keep perspective on how the changes actually impact the players participating. There's always a race towards assuming this change is going to grossly alter the universe of the WPPR system forever, when in reality we're talking about peanuts.

    Anyway, here's my TF post:

    This is about making the world rankings more accurate, and the selfie leagues are simply overvalued for "what they are". It's taking advantage of a system that's built around events being organized and run by volunteers who spend countless hours, money and energy putting something on.

    Compare that to the "effort" it takes to run a Selfie league, which for me is entering a score from my phone at my leisure, and finding a clever comment to post on Facebook along with posting a picture . . . and showing up for 90 minutes once a month to run a final. It's really a f*cking joke (and I say that because I created it, and I still think it's awesome, and I still think it has a place in this wide world of competitive pinball . . . just at a reduced value based on the play where that TD is putting in that time/effort/energy like they have to do for every other tournament on our calendar).

    If we wanted to help out operators we would value all Selfie leagues at 100 points minimum. If we wanted to help boost the business of JJP we would offer a 5X multiplier in WPPR points for any tournament that uses a JJP game in the lineup. Unfortunately the benefits for the operator from WPPR's is more of a collateral damage sort of thing rather than the goal of the system.

    Right now our SSL averages about 10 WPPR points a month. Anyone that finished outside of the top 4 got less than 2 WPPR points for their performance. Next year our TGP will go from 64% to 24%. The winner will be getting ~4 points instead of 10, and anyone outside of the top 4 will see a drop of LESS THAN ONE WPPR POINT each month for this change. For anyone in the bottom half of the field, we're talking HUNDRETHS OF A POINT difference.

    If that less than one WPPR point difference is going to ruin everything for operators, TD's, players, kids, puppies, etc, then someone needs to prioritize where WPPR's fall in their life.

    #64 3 years ago
    Quoted from HighProtein:

    Same here, earnings up, final 4 is totally doable and eventually top 8 makes sense eventually for me as well at some places.
    For me it's a matter of getting new players into it that will be repeat players, it's an up hill battle and a numbers game..

    I give away beer at Superleague finals and the bi-weekly events I run and I still am not seeing a whole lot of growth. Tucson Comic Con is in early November and I'm looking at renting a booth space, sticking 2 games on free play, standing around for 3 days answering questions and fixing ish, and crossing my fingers.

    #65 3 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    I posted this on Tilt Forums, but thought it was worth posting here as well regarding the imminent DEATH OF SELFIE LEAGUES. It's always important to keep perspective on how the changes actually impact the players participating. There's always a race towards assuming this change is going to grossly alter the universe of the WPPR system forever, when in reality we're talking about peanuts.
    Anyway, here's my TF post:
    This is about making the world rankings more accurate, and the selfie leagues are simply overvalued for "what they are". It's taking advantage of a system that's built around events being organized and run by volunteers who spend countless hours, money and energy putting something on.
    Compare that to the "effort" it takes to run a Selfie league, which for me is entering a score from my phone at my leisure, and finding a clever comment to post on Facebook along with posting a picture . . . and showing up for 90 minutes once a month to run a final. It's really a f*cking joke (and I say that because I created it, and I still think it's awesome, and I still think it has a place in this wide world of competitive pinball . . . just at a reduced value based on the play where that TD is putting in that time/effort/energy like they have to do for every other tournament on our calendar).
    If we wanted to help out operators we would value all Selfie leagues at 100 points minimum. If we wanted to help boost the business of JJP we would offer a 5X multiplier in WPPR points for any tournament that uses a JJP game in the lineup. Unfortunately the benefits for the operator from WPPR's is more of a collateral damage sort of thing rather than the goal of the system.
    Right now our SSL averages about 10 WPPR points a month. Anyone that finished outside of the top 4 got less than 2 WPPR points for their performance. Next year our TGP will go from 64% to 24%. The winner will be getting ~4 points instead of 10, and anyone outside of the top 4 will see a drop of LESS THAN ONE WPPR POINT each month for this change. For anyone in the bottom half of the field, we're talking HUNDRETHS OF A POINT difference.
    If that less than one WPPR point difference is going to ruin everything for operators, TD's, players, kids, puppies, etc, then someone needs to prioritize where WPPR's fall in their life.

    Well, I'm all about the puppies, but screw everybody else!

    #66 3 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    and I say that because I created it

    you could at least give credit where credit is due...

    I created the Selfie league format. The very first flippin with the greats I spoke with you and got the whole idea OKed before going ahead. Month long unlimited qualifying with photos and trash talking on our regional forum.

    You may have refined it, but I invented it

    Next thing, you are going to be claiming your dad saved pinball...

    #67 3 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    you could at least give credit where credit is due...
    I created the Selfie league format. The very first flippin with the greats I spoke with you and got the whole idea OKed before going ahead. Month long unlimited qualifying with photos and trash talking on our regional forum.
    You may have refined it, but I invented it
    Next thing, you are going to be claiming your dad saved pinball...

    Cheers to Hilton ... Who got one extra year of selfie league WPPRs over the rest of us

    #68 3 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Cheers to Hilton ... Who got one extra year of selfie league WPPRs over the rest of us

    heck yeah and that first one was big points when events had the big time base value

    #69 3 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    I created the Selfie league format. The very first flippin with the greats I spoke with you and got the whole idea OKed before going ahead

    Actually, the first ever one I heard of was down here in NZ, which was run for the Metallica launch. You played Coin Cascade machines around the country and emailed them a pic of your score, and the top scores got to go to a National final to be the NZ champ and then go to Sydney to play for a Met Pro. I got to Sydney but I didn't win the pin. 3m off making the final game. ((

    rd

    #70 3 years ago

    we all know NZ does not count dave

    #71 3 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    we all know NZ does not count dave

    Where?

    haha

    rd

    #72 3 years ago

    Pretty sure he was talking about Australia right?

    #73 3 years ago
    Quoted from WaddleJrJr:

    Pretty sure he was talking about Australia right?

    Isn't it somewhere in Europe?

    rd

    1 month later
    #74 3 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    It might be our first announcement that actually gets 100% universal praise

    I can't imagine anyone arguing that it's not a good thing for the SCS (although Hilton may find a way)

    Details to come soon enough.

    http://www.ifpapinball.com/2017-ifpa-nationalswomenspin-masters-championships-head-to-dallas/

    The big announcement is that courtesy of Stern Pinball, the 2017 National Pinball Champion will receive a brand new Stern pinball machine as top prize!

    #75 3 years ago

    And that it's in Dallas...which I already knew. I won't qualify for state this year much less nationals, but I'm excited it will be here for a year.

    *Edit* I have some other comments, but not sure if I should keep them to myself.

    Who wants to run a mini-tourney at my 985 sq ft. condo? Or can I bring a game to FUN for use in the tournament? I live literally 5 miles from there, heh.

    #76 3 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    http://www.ifpapinball.com/2017-ifpa-nationalswomenspin-masters-championships-head-to-dallas/
    The big announcement is that courtesy of Stern Pinball, the 2017 National Pinball Champion will receive a brand new Stern pinball machine as top prize!

    does this mean if a state does not send a player then they no longer have to donate $100 to the national pot?

    #77 3 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    does this mean if a state does not send a player then they no longer have to donate $100 to the national pot?

    I didn't read anything that would lead me to believe that.

    #78 3 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    http://www.ifpapinball.com/2017-ifpa-nationalswomenspin-masters-championships-head-to-dallas/
    The big announcement is that courtesy of Stern Pinball, the 2017 National Pinball Champion will receive a brand new Stern pinball machine as top prize!

    Very Cool.

    Quoted from Whysnow:

    does this mean if a state does not send a player then they no longer have to donate $100 to the national pot?

    lol Nice try.

    #79 3 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    *Edit* I have some other comments, but not sure if I should keep them to myself.

    Who wants to run a mini-tourney at my 985 sq ft. condo? Or can I bring a game to FUN for use in the tournament? I live literally 5 miles from there, heh.

    Never keep your comments to yourself . . . I live for this sh*t

    I know Marcus is helping us fill the bank of 12 machines needed, but we are definitely looking for some help on this (especially for some modern games). Shoot me a PM if you have a game that you wouldn't mind donating to the cause and I can make sure Marcus is aware as he's putting things together from the ground out there.

    #80 3 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    does this mean if a state does not send a player then they no longer have to donate $100 to the national pot?

    No . . . the $100 fee is for that state to be part of the SCS for a given year. It builds the prize pool for those that are able to participate in Nationals. We have seen some luck getting a local business to sponsor the SCS for a given state by funding the $100 Nationals fee. The entry fee from the state players can then go back 100% to those players. Might be worth looking into up in WI for you guys.

    We're simply able to now offer a prize pool of $9000-9500 for Nationals compared to previous years of $4000-4500.

    With the top prize going to National Champion we'll be able to spread that cash around deeper to the other finalists.

    #81 3 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    especially for some modern games

    You should only need one or two!

    #82 3 years ago
    Quoted from zacaj:

    You should only need one or two!

    Looking for 4

    #83 3 years ago

    What needs to be done to get WI to host nationals some year?

    #84 3 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    The big announcement is that courtesy of Stern Pinball, the 2017 National Pinball Champion will receive a brand new Stern pinball machine as top prize

    If we talk nicely to Gary can the Woman's World Champ get one too?

    rd

    #85 3 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    done to get WI to host nationals some year?

    Convince the AMOA to have their industry trade show in Wisconsin

    We're only moving to Dallas because that's where "real work" takes me.

    2018 the AMOA is moving us back to Vegas.

    #86 3 years ago
    Quoted from rotordave:

    If we talk nicely to Gary can the Woman's World Champ get one too?

    You might have a better chance sweet talking him than I do, or have Dani talk him into it

    They make Zach and I work hard for their support and sponsorship. Fortunately we don't mind.

    #87 3 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    You might have a better chance sweet talking him than I do, or have Dani talk him into it
    They make Zach and I work hard for their support and sponsorship. Fortunately we don't mind.

    At least you get to play all the sweet new machines

    It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it!

    I'll drop old mate Gary an email and see what I can do ....

    rd

    #88 3 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Convince the AMOA to have their industry trade show in Wisconsin
    We're only moving to Dallas because that's where "real work" takes me.
    2018 the AMOA is moving us back to Vegas.

    That is unfortunate. Sport could grow more with a national event that went to more places, not to mention the shit quality of games in vegas is pretty sad to use to rep the national event.

    #89 3 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    That is unfortunate. Sport could grow more with a national event that went to more places, not to mention the shit quality of games in vegas is pretty sad to use to rep the national event.

    I'm not sure where Nationals is held has any impact on the growth of the sport as a whole.

    IMO the media attention that we're able to generate throughout the SCS and Nationals campaign does far more to move the needle.

    From an industry perspective tying it to the industry's biggest trade show is also an important factor. Stern's belief in the importance of competitive pinball has only been increased based on the excitement we're able to generate by being an industry function. If the timing worked better my preference would be to have it on the show floor itself.

    Only needing 12 machines the PHOF has been 'fine' for us. Having IFPA5 there and getting 60 games ready .... I'll agree that was insane.

    Looking forward to the Dallas contingent next year, and there's a chance we move to Flipperspiel for 2018. I've never been but have heard great things about that location.

    #90 3 years ago

    Moving the event to more regions of the cpuntry will get more press. SCS gets LOTS of press and moves the needle. NAtionals is minor in comparison and i saw hardly any press on a regonal level.

    ONly seems natural to move the event to CA, Chicago, NYC, new orleans, vegas. Similar to many states rotating the SCS location, this helps buold the press scope of reach.

    #91 3 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    What needs to be done to get WI to host nationals some year?

    Make Wisconsin somewhere people actually want to go?

    I don't see how moving a national competition closer to you helps advance the sport...

    #92 3 years ago
    Quoted from jwilson:

    Make Wisconsin somewhere people actually want to go?
    I don't see how moving a national competition closer to you helps advance the sport...

    not closer to me per say...

    Moving it around the nation to GOOD playing collections with large concentrations of good players. i.e. seems silly to no host in CA/PNW, Chicago, NYC, Pittsburg, etc... Locations of large populus, good players, good pinball collections able to really stand up to competition.

    #93 3 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    Moving it around the nation to GOOD playing collections with large concentrations of good players. i.e. seems silly to no host in CA/PNW, Chicago, NYC, Pittsburg, etc... Locations of large populus, good players, good pinball collections able to really stand up to competition.

    I have a hall pass from the wife to move the World Championship around . . . I don't have that same hall pass for Nationals.

    All she knows is that I have to go on my annual business trip for work for the Spring show, and yeahhhhhh there's also some pinball 'stuff' going on as well, but it's definitely not a "pinball trip"

    May she never read Pinside and find this post!

    #94 3 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    I have a hall pass from the wife to move the World Championship around . . . I don't have that same hall pass for Nationals.
    All she knows is that I have to go on my annual business trip for work for the Spring show, and yeahhhhhh there's also some pinball 'stuff' going on as well, but it's definitely not a "pinball trip"
    May she never read Pinside and find this post!

    quoted for posterity

    cntrl alt printsceen

    Now to look up your mailing adress

    So when are we moving it to Chicago for a year?

    #95 3 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    So when are we moving it to Chicago for a year?

    There will be some year where something comes up and it ends up in my basement.

    2018 actually poses some real issues I've put off dealing with. The trade show is typically in that mid-late March time frame, and I just found out the dates are like mid-late FEBRUARY for 2018.

    With SCS day typically that second weekend of February, it makes it really challenging to run Nationals the weekend after and ask everyone to find their was to Vegas on such limited notice

    #96 3 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    There will be some year where something comes up and it ends up in my basement.

    I suggest when that year comes up then I will host. I am never going to make it to nationals but would like to host it and nobody ever comes over to play my colleciton so it will provide a diverse colleciton with no homefield advantage.

    #97 3 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    I suggest when that year comes up then I will host. I am never going to make it to nationals but would like to host it and nobody ever comes over to play my colleciton so it will provide a diverse colleciton with no homefield advantage.

    Appreciate the offer . . . I'm more likely to shift everything back in the schedule to accommodate the trade show so we can still utilize that industry exposure.

    The second likely possibility is to team up with Level 257 here in the suburbs where we run our Super Selfie League and have them donate some space for us to bring in 12 games from local collectors to pull this off. This assumes they are still open for business and flying high with pinball nearly 2 years from now, which is never a certainty.

    The one part where you hosting fails includes me having to let my wife know I have to head up to Wisconsin for 'something', after just being out of town in Vegas for work

    #98 3 years ago

    you have to head up to Wi for a work trip. The largest operator of pinball machines in Madison wants to tlak to you about the possibiility of buying a bunch of Raw Thrills games.

    #99 3 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    The largest operator of pinball machines in Madison wants to tlak to you about the possibiility of buying a bunch of Raw Thrills games.

    Haha now that's something I might be able to work with

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