If I were to have a bank of 4 games and approximately 12 people show up to play, what would be a good format to use?
(Topic ID: 138272)
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Quoted from ifpapinball:It really depends on your motivation for the event. How long do you want the event to go for? Do you want people playing all the time, or do you want an equal amount of hanging out/socializing.
With 4 machines, it means you could do groups of 3 and have everyone playing all games all the time (then you're only as fast as your slowest group). You could do head-to-head but then you could only have 8 players playing at-a-time, so you'll have 4 players sitting around drinking/hanging out while the others play (not necessarily a bad thing - depends on your motivation).
I always find it best to talk with those 12 people playing and see what a majority of the group would find most entertaining.
Cool. It will be at a barcade so I'm sure the group wouldn't mind standing around drinking and socializing for periods. Thanks for the tips.
1 month later
Quoted from ifpapinball:We're not going math crazy over this. The goal is for organizers to run 4-player groups as efficiently as possible in order to get that 2X multiplier.
Typically a tournament designed to run 4-player groups is based on some sort of advancement of qualifiers by a round number of 4.
For tournaments that are "We'll be doing groups of 3 or 4 depending on how many show up" we'll go with 'majority rules'. So if you end up with more 3-player groups than 4-player groups, it'll be 1.5X.
So if I have 12 show up, I want the qualifying round to be 3 groups of four if I want the most points awarded?
2 weeks later
if I have 24 for qualifying, will the points awarded to the winners be more or less depending if I take 8 or 12 people to A division finals? looking to get max points here.
I plan to have the finals done this way:
Groups of four with 4,3,2,1 scoring on the four games in the tournament. Top two advance until 4 remain. Then winner is of the final four is the champ. Same scoring for the final four.
So basically if I have 24 people for qualifying, I could take 8 people for A finals, and have two rounds of finals to get to the champ, or if I take 12 for A finals, I would have to have 3 rounds I guess. Down to 6 after first round, then second round would be 2 groups of 3 with top two advancing to the final four for round 3.
Quoted from ifpapinball:8 players would be +16 games towards TGP.
12 players how would you plan on doing your second round? 3 groups of 4 with top two advancing would leave you with 6 players after round 1. Unless you planned on doing byes for the top 4?
if I take 12 for A finals, I would have to have 3 rounds I guess. Down to 6 after first round, then second round would be 2 groups of 3 with top two advancing to the final four for round 3. Or like you said, Top 4 get byes.
Quoted from GravitaR:If you are using score keeping/tourney software of any kind, 100% participation can be checked fast. Bring up each game, scroll to bottom to determine how many recorded a score for it, lowest number is your 100% participation, Easy.
Or just make a very simple excel sheet. Very easy to isolate people that didn't play all the games.
Quoted from ifpapinball:Here's a quick breakdown:
- There's only 17 players rated 1800 or better
- 56 players are rated 1700 or better
- 185 players are rated 1600 or better
- 621 players are rated 1500 or better
- 1785 players are rated 1400 or better
- 4076 players are rated 1300 or better
- 8152 players are rated 1200 or better
- 14,116 players are rated 1100 or better
Cool. I always liked my rating more than my ranking anyway. Haha
Quoted from Russell:In other words, future tournaments are worth in-general less than the same tournament from the past?
I think some formats (super league) are worth less while others are worth more (tournaments with a lot of 4 player groups)
1 week later
Quoted from TomGWI:Question: Can you run an event where the field gets divided into divisions for playoffs but only the top division counts towards TGP?
Example, you have 40 people. After qualifying, You break top 16 into one bracket, 17-32 into a bracket and 33-40 in another. The top 16 counts towards playoffs. The other brackets are playing for rank and/or fun.
Tom.
The tournament I run works that way. There were 18 players. After qualifying, top 4 played in the finals, the the bottom 14 played in a bracket to decide 5-18. Those games between the 5-18 ranks did not count towards TGP. Or at least that's how I understood what josh told me when I submitted the results.
2 weeks later
Forgot about the new rules and I have a question on how many meaningful games my tournament had last night
11 people split up into 2 4s and a 3, and played one game on 4 pinball machines
For finals, the top 5 after qualifying made it. Top qualifier got a bye. The next four played the same four pinball machine again doing 4,2,1,0 scoring.
Top three advanced. Then the final four play all four games again and used the same scoring as previous round. Winner crowned.
Quoted from Xerico:11 players (assuming all have at least 5 IFPA events under their belt) = 5.5 points
Wow. Thanks for the help! I am the only player with this much experience. The rest were either new, or it was their second event.
Quoted from Xerico:Finals = 6 significant games due to the fact that 3 player match play is worth x1.5 (4 games * 1.5)
Well remember that one guy got a bye so the final round was actually a four player match.
Quoted from Xerico:I think I have it now.
Scenario #1: (no byes)
12 players start the event
Qualifying on 4 machines. Reduce field by 50% -> +4 TGP
Second Round on 4 machines, 3 player match play (6 players). Eliminate 1 player per group-> +6 TGP (4 games x 1.5 bonus multiplier)
Finals Round on 4 machines, 4 player match play -> +8 TGP (4 games x 2 bonus multiplier)
Total would be 72% TGP for the 18 meaningful games played.
Scenario #2: (Bye for Top 2 Qualifiers)
12 players start the event
Qualifying on 4 machines. Reduce field by 50% -> + 4 TGP
Second Round -> 4 out of 6 finalist will play (1) 4 player match. Top 2 players advance to Final Round.
Finals Round -> Out of 6 finalist, there's a 50% chance that the winner plays 1 round of play and a 50% chance that the winner plays 2 rounds. The EV would be (1 * (.50) + 2 * (.50) ) = 1.50. Each round is 4 games, and valued at 2x with the 4-Player match play. So you take 1.5 * 8 = +12 TGP
Total would be 64% TGP for the 16 significant games (4 qualifying games + 12 final games)
Is this correct?
Marcus
Wow, so in this case, doing no byes and making 3 player groups gets the most points. So while having more people play together is good, playing fewer rounds is worse. Makes sense. Thanks so much again guys!
1 month later
Can someone help me understand the Division restrictions? I just played in LAX in the B division of classics. So apparently since there were players that did not qualify for A, but were too high of an IFPA rank to play in B, the final standings of the classics tournament after the A division were locked in based off their qualifying standings. This stinks for the B division players that did really well and thought they finished around 30th overall, but were more like 45.
If this is the case, then how does PAPA work? I assume there are players every year that are highly ranked that don't qualify for A but are restricted to play in something lower. Does that mean whomever qualified 1st in B, gets the crown for B division? I am pretty sure that is not how that works at PAPA.
Does the type of tournament dictate this result? If so, I want to make sure and avoid running those types of tournaments.
Okay then I am all for unrestricted over all divisions. If an A player wants to purposefully tank in qualifying so that they can play and win B division, they still only finished 25th overall, didn't win any money (in most cases), and their points they were awarded were way less. Plus, they still have to beat the other people in B to win. There were some damn good players in B division classics at LAX.
Quoted from Snailman:I disagree. B division is there to provide a finals competitive option for lesser skill level players. We should not allow an option for people to purposefully tank and play in a lower division. Because sadly, this would happen.
I say let them do it. The ones that do it will be pretty obvious IMO and like I said, they still have to beat the other people in B. I just played in the KY state championships and watched someone who has never play in a tournament before win. It just makes the victory that much sweeter IMO
Quoted from bkerins:They will be obvious, and nobody will like it, and all the money prizes in lower divisions will go to players who don't belong there.
Also know that at PAPA, a new player can select any division, there is no low end of restrictions, just a high end.
In my opinion, division restrictions are necessary in any event with substantial prizes for lower divisions.
Fair enough. Then how about if you don't make A and are restricted from B, you're eliminated?
Yeah just so many different formats to choose from, and I'm glad it's that way, as there is definitely something for everybody. Herb style is definitely my least favorite. Pinburgh is the ultimate format IMO. Hoping I can get a chance to go this year.
Quoted from Whridlsoncestood:How did some one who has never played in a tournament win a state championship. Only way to be in a state championship is to play in local tournaments and qualify....
Okay one tournament, but still.
Quoted from ryanwanger:Doesn't Pinburgh restrict people to A Division also?
From what the IFPA results say, everyone that played in Pinburgh got IFPA points. For PAPA, anyone that didn't make A got zero points.
Quoted from bkerins:Players choose their division upon arrival at PAPA, so there is no "making A". Any player can compete in A. Most choose not to, so they don't receive any points.
At events like Louisville and California Extreme, rather than have players choose A or B up front, players are judged to be "B eligible" or "casual eligible", and the B finals are based on performance in the main division. Think of those B finals as "bonus events". Some of this was spurred by IFPA's decision to only count top-division play for points; at LAX, everyone's qualifying play counts for points, even players who would otherwise have self-selected a lower division.
Thanks Bowen. That makes a lot of sense. I just wonder if at PAPA there is a way to get points for all those people that either didn't qualify for A or chose another division. That is a lot of people that would get points that could then bring those points back home to their local events, thus contributing towards the increased points that are awarded to their local events. This would help with the SCS debate on keeping state championships with more local/regional players too. Just a thought.
1 month later
Quoted from Russell:This is really interesting stuff. Having seen this, it seems that the lower finishers in A are not receiving enough points given the difficulty of the task they have accomplished. PAPA 'A' is hard!
I think what you need to consider is that this is a PAPA event that is scored by the IFPA. So the IFPA is not running this tournament, they are just awarding the points. If PAPA were to receive more points from the IFPA, they would need to run it differently. Honestly I don't see how PAPA could be awarded more points. 105th place got over two points. That's a ton of points. Without knowing if there is a max to the points awarded by the IFPA, I have to think this tournament is close to that.
1 week later
Quoted from Edenecho:yeah its a great format for deciding the best player amongst a group of people, eliminating more of the randomness a knockout tournament often can introduce. Also a good social format
Can you expand more on how this format works? I am all for less randomness and more social aspects haha
Quoted from Edenecho:Sure, its quite basic really, I use matchplay-app for setting and executing this.
So Double round robin is that every player plays two games against every other player. Thats it, really.
One game against every player, makes it slightly more lucky/unlucky ball, but with a double round robin then usually if a player wins both he is the better..that evening at least Will probably also have a small playoff best of 3 games with the top 4, but thats just me. I like 4 player matchplay.
how do you decide what games the players play each match?
Quoted from Edenecho:If I am to have it at my place, where i have got and twd, it wont be a problem hehe, but else Matchplay will randomize and assign games for people each round. Have you tried Matchplay? (matchplay.events )
Yeah I am familiar with the app, so I will give it a go and might try something different like this for our monthly tournaments.
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