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(Topic ID: 104676)

WPPR formula change for 2015!


By ifpapinball

6 years ago



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  • 443 posts
  • 65 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by desertT1
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    #22 6 years ago

    It would be nice to have a generic template formula where I can plug in a potential tournament to see points. Understandable that the player rank/rating would just be a generic average, but something where I can plug in X # players, X #games in qualifying, X # games in playoff, field cut by 50% or more Y/N, unlimited/limited qualifying and if unlimited X #hours of play.

    Can this be done so people can get a live estimate for the number of points in general terms that an event may be worth?

    I can see it as being very useful for on the fly decisions.
    For example, hey guys today went really smooth for qualifying so we can add X # of games to playoffs and it will increase the value of this event by X IFPA points >>> by show of hands shoudl we add X games to increase the value?

    #28 6 years ago

    Hence why I can see the need to undershoot >> i.e. "At least 3 games will be played for playoffs, but if time allows this may be increased to 4"

    I would also like the generic formula as a way to play with differnet ideas and see what grades out to what.

    Both players and tournament directors will need to develop and make chioce on what sort of event to run and what events are worth their time to attend. As a director I will want to maximize attendance for many events and need to find out a good way to do that.

    #37 6 years ago
    Quoted from bcrage88:

    I was in a tourney this weekend in Abbotsford, Canada with an excellent format you paid $35 bucks got to play three rounds of 10 machines to qualify. Everyone got the same amount of entries and this was a PAPA circuit santioned event. One of the best and fairest I have seen format wise. Everyone is limited to three chances at each machine to qualify top 16, so you do not get the ole pump and dump. First prize was $5000 too just an awesome well run event, wish there were more that were this format. Pinburgh is the only other one that come to mind where you just pay your entry and everyone plays the same amount of times to achieve final ranking...

    Can you explain in more detail?

    Did you play through each game in succession 3 times? Did you play through game 1, then 2, then 3, ... and then start back over with 1 again?

    We you ranked between each round of 10? Was this individual play or match play of some sort?

    I would liek to hear more about exactly how it all worked.

    #42 6 years ago
    Quoted from johnnyfive:

    Initially, you got 1 book of tickets, 1 for each game. After completing that they gave me books 2 and 3 at the same time, and I chose to play each game 2x in a row instead of round robin twice.
    I really enjoyed the format. I do think the randomness of EM's and limited to 3x tries is a questionable fit. If you look at the top 16 qualifiers, pretty much everyone did well on SS/DMD games, but there's a lot of randomness to the EM scores of qualifiers, with lots of 0pt entries, etc. Maybe EM's set to 3 ball but with 5 entries would be a better fit? Not sure.

    Sounds fun! How long did this take? How many players and were games set up fast?

    #58 6 years ago
    Quoted from bkerins:

    Ideally we can move to a situation where we're not relying solely on players' entry fees to build the prize pool.

    Where is the money coming from if not players?

    Also, I have found that very few actually care about the money from the events I have runs and if anything I prefer to deselect for that crowd. For anyone worried about needing a format that brings in money, switch your style to better trophies for deeper and spread the money further down the pike and you may be surprised at the increased attendance.

    #69 6 years ago
    Quoted from yancy:

    Same place as the seven-figure prize pools in golf: sponsors, advertisers, television rights. I could imagine PAPA finals edited down & broadcast at 3:00 AM on ESPN 2, with a four or five-figure prize pool mostly comprised of outside money.
    On the other hand, exactly zero dollars have been added to the World Series of Poker main event in the 10+ years it's been broadcast on ESPN in prime time.

    are any of these even possible for pinball? realistically?

    #71 6 years ago

    I would love to see sposor prize purses happen but don't see it ever really coming to light.

    I think prize pools are continually built off the wallets of players and the pump and dump formats have burnt out many of the casual players as they continually see the prizes always going to a select few individuals. I have steered away from these events over the past few years and really liek the predetermined # of entires thing.

    I actually think the forced change to MGC main event last year turned out to be a really good thing and hope it carries over for this year.

    #91 6 years ago

    Is there the option to modify reporting mid stream in order to get what our players want out of the new system?

    To better explain, let's look at our Pooley's monthly and maybe you can crunch some numbers...

    Under the new system we could continue to have competition and report results on a monthly basis or a every-other-month basis.

    Option 1:
    Report Monthly
    Each month approximately 20 people. Qualifying is 4 games and more than 50% split of field for playoffs. Playoffs is 2 games. This would equal ??? WPPR

    Option 2:
    Report every other month.
    Approximately 30 unique players every 2 months. Each month would be the same as above (4 games for qualifying, cut the field by more than 50%, 2 games for playoff)
    Addition of a 4 game playoff for top combined monthly top people. This would mean the total players for this reporting structure would be 30 people and (6+6+4) 16 games to victory with a more than 50% cut in the field. This would equal ??? WPPR

    The personal value for option 1 or option 2 varies based on the crowd we get. For example people that are trying to still build up 20 total event will prefer option 1 in most cases as each event being reported monthly means 12 event to get points for in each year. On the other hand people which already have 20 eligible events may be more interested in gaining more points from fewer reported events.

    I hope I am explaining this correctly?

    Does this make sense Josh?

    #94 6 years ago

    Thanks Josh.

    That was about what I thought.

    So if I put in 2015 Pooleys as monthlys and Report each month for Jan to June but then the players decide to have a bigger scoring event can I just update the website and start reporting every other month?

    #98 6 years ago

    Somewhat related question but a bit off topic.

    This is regarding one of the main leagues in WI. They run from July of 2014 till June of 2015 currently but I think have choosen to only report a single time.

    My concern is that this tournament spans over 2 years but only reports for 2015. With the increased interest in SCS in WI and the reset of SCS points on Jan 1 of each year I see this as an allowed contradiction. While it really has little total impact (it appears) is there any plan to prevent long term events from spanning across 2 calendar years?

    #101 6 years ago

    dup

    #102 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Many leagues run seasons that cross over years. We base things off of the results submission date. If that happens to include play from the previous calendar year, we're not concerned about that.

    ok, just checking. thanks

    #112 6 years ago

    What I am seeing it that instead of pump and dump with best score, the new changes will lead to addative scores so events can strive towards 100% TGP.

    5 games only best score = 20% TGP

    5 games play each 5 times and all scores from a game are added together = 100% TGP
    More realistic will be things like 5 games play each 3 times and additive scores, plus playoffs with longest route to victory being an additional 10 games. 25 games total = 100% TGP I actually think this is both a fun and good possible format for max tounery points along with festering out the best people.

    #116 6 years ago

    Yes, i am fearful of many events becoming less fun while people try to maximize event %.

    Hopefully organizers will be creative but remember that F U N is the m,ost importnat thing.

    #125 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    I don't believe we'll see anyone earn one of the 16 SCS spots in a given state strictly due to their performance at the State Championship from the this year. If that actually ends up happening, and it's on my list to go through and check to see if it does happen, we'll reconsider it for the future.

    Keep in mind that earning a spot soley on the previous years SCS is only a small part of what should be factored in.

    Did they earn a spot that they would not have without the SCS. If so then the system is favoring legacy players over new players since thos ethat just started competing mid way through even 2013 missed the real shot at playing in the 2013 SCS and hence those possible points in their 2014 calculation.

    SCS will also surely impact final qualifying position which does have an impact on the overall competion.

    I personally would like to see the SCS not award points for the future years SCS calculations and I am a person that benefitted from it this year since I played in WI 2013 SCS.

    #132 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Jason Werdrick - would drop from 5th to 10th
    Chris Basler - would drop from 9th to 23rd! (gotta keep an eye on this)
    .

    Unless Werdrick travels to the remainder of the bigger WI events for this year that "to 10th" could get much closer to a "to 17th" over time.

    That is very pertinent from my POV.

    Even a slide from 5th to 10th makes a difference in my POV and the calibur of player you need to play through to win is important, esp with the SCS format. Playing a best of 7 and winning in 4 is very different than all your matches going to the full 7.

    My general feeling is that SCS is ranking for events within the calander year and I would prefer to keep it solely impacted by thing that happen within the actual year (i.e. not a previous years qualifying to play an event in the future year).

    #134 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Technically our written rules state that every IFPA endorsed tournament held within state lines during 2014 are counted in the 2014 standings, full stop . . . and that does include the previous year's final.
    We'll be following where players like Basler and Werdrick end up, as well as what happens in the other states.
    I'll say that if we only see that it's seeding that is being jumbled, but that all 16 players would have been the same either way, we probably wouldn't make the change.

    understood and just sharing my view.

    #135 6 years ago

    Side question, is there a max that an event can bank out at?

    I think I missed that?

    #145 6 years ago

    "1) List your address publicly so anyone can show up, and then you aren't held to the 16 player minimum"

    Just to be clear, we can run a public event at our private home but have a requirement for pregistration and then address is provided, correct?

    I don't care to put my address out oon the web but am OK if someone registers to play and provides me their name/contact info for my records first then send them the address.

    that is still a public event, correct?

    #164 6 years ago

    the #1 thing I NEED to help support and run more competitive pinball events is more free/cheap software that is both versatile and user friends.

    Scott's stuff is great but I would love more options.

    i am NOT a fan of brackalope at all. Buggy and unbalanced in how it does many things IMHO.

    -1
    #174 6 years ago

    Brackalope is just a silly way to structure any competition with more than a 4 to 1 ratio of players to games. It leads to LOTS fo waiting and not enough playing.

    that combined with the aweful ranking issues makes it a bust for me.

    #177 6 years ago
    Quoted from noahpdavis:

    Whysnow - sounds like you don't like the double elimination format. Within that format brackelope has no ranking issues - it's the need for byes that create those weird ranking scenarios. I guess I'm saying it's the double elim's format that is at fault - not brackelope.
    If you use 2-strike/3-strike knockout - problem solved. We've always had double elim brackets for our weekly events and the big double elim Ground Kontrol tournament (100+ people). Historically ground kontrol would end after midnight. The first year brackelope was used I believe it shaved 4-5 hours off the event due to it's efficiency. Our weekly events (30-40 people on 5+ machines) used to end as late as 11 or midnight - now it's more like 9:30 or 10
    I like lots of formats including double elim. If you're gonna do double elim or 2-strike, brackelope works extremely well.

    Yes, my experience with brackalope involves buys (typical as number of players rarely works out perfect to not have buys). This issue is still Brackalope as it does not appropriately rank final position in any logical way for those whom have buys. I can draw up a better bracket by hand in less time and more accurately rank final position than what brackalope can do.

    Double elim obvioulsy compounds the issue of time and I don't like any event with tons of wait time. I come to play pinball and understand that the majority woudl rather be playing than waiting. There are much better formats than heads up brackalope brackets when dealing with a high person to game ratio. This is really the biggest thing. Lots of people and too few games are common in our area. you need to get creative when running events. There is no prefect answer but from my experience brackalope is definately not it.

    #182 6 years ago

    Back on topic of the new WPPR format and opportunities for new events.

    Josh, i am trying to come up with an idea for a WI bar crawl tournament for next year and want to get your input.

    Basically it will be a virtual run event.

    The idea is that I will select 4-6 bars with a total of 20ish games to be played. These bars will be in MKE and MSN and Appleton areas. Players will need to preregister and get a premade score tracking sheet for each game. Players are allowed unlimited attempts for a 2-3 week period. In order to qualify 20 games out of the 30ish available will have to be played. Players document highscores by taking a picture of each game score with their player ID tag/# in the photo also. They will then email me an electronic copy with each score populated and the corresponding photos for their highest score on each game to verify. The can only submit 20 scores in total.

    I will then tally all scores entered and top X will qualify for playoffs which will be for a prestated upcoming weekend.

    thoughts? (Besides telling me I am crazy; Yes I know logistically this will be a ton of work and I will need to coordinate with a tons of operators/bars/game techs in advance to ensure state of game is maintained as best possible)

    I am just looking for new ways to have fun with the new system now that there is no limit to the # of events that can be held at a singel address.

    #183 6 years ago
    Quoted from noahpdavis:

    Question - in the "modified ranking double elimination" paper method . . . is the winner based on the number of wins?
    Are players rewarded (rankwise) for doing better in the (tougher) winners bracket?
    Also - is a bye into the top 16/8 looked at differently than a first round bye given due to an uneven bracket?

    I do not have the time to type it all out right now but final position is based on win/loss record and whom you lost to/when int he bracket. There are more positional ties in this method but it is the only FAIR way to run a double elim with buys.

    #188 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Assuming "top X" cuts the field by at least 50% for the playoffs, then this would grade out at 100% no problem. You would have your 20+ games for 80%, plus unlimited qualifying opportunties for 20+ hours for the other 20%.
    If your playoffs include more than half the field, then you would only be able to the data from the playoffs with respect to the TGP calculation.

    thanks and opinion on the actual idea?

    fun or stupid?

    #193 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Sounds fun to me!
    I think making players play with at least one other person might be something you would want to look into, just to avoid potential cheating . . . but I probably wouldn't worry about that until you get a sense that it might be.

    good idea!

    #199 6 years ago
    Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

    just don't force them to play 2 player games as in some games when going for score it's better to have 1 player only.

    Good point. I actually like the idea of having them play with another person as a verifier but agree that 1 player games are nice when concentrating on a good score.

    #207 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Zach gain 190.03 and will move from 3rd to 2nd.

    so now we finally see the whole reason for the change

    #213 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Busted AGAIN!
    For a while the changes we made were to benefit me reaching #1, but we've now put all of our resources towards the much better (and better looking) Sharpe brother.

    I LOL'd.

    Don't worry most chicks dig personality over looks after you are past 30. Pinball WPPR is 3rd in importance after personality and looks.

    #221 6 years ago

    that is an interesting format.

    #233 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Or have the top 2 advance in A to play one best-of-25 match, and have the other 38 players advance to the B finals

    works for me

    3 months later
    #267 5 years ago

    Just curious when the new formula is going live and when the switch will be flipped?

    I would like to see how things are shaping up and where I stand as I make plans for travel this year.

    #274 5 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    We're getting closer. Test site has everything pre-2015 implemented (I think). Working hard to make sure everything is working properly, and then we'll try to throw the 2015 results and see what happens.
    I can tell you that you're 339th under the old system, and 347th under the new system.

    Do you have an ETA for when you are going to throw the trigger?

    4 months later
    #344 5 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Luckily we keep track of those stats, and I check them every month . . .
    2015 --> 8714 players (through June 8th)
    2014 --> 13347 players
    2013 --> 9820 players
    2012 --> 7648 players
    2011 --> 6179 players

    Any stats on players that played 1-5, 6-10, 11-15, etc... events in a year.

    I am curious how many of those new players are just a single event or actually becoming more active or less active?

    #347 5 years ago
    Quoted from jonnyo:

    Well, I hope at some point you'll reconsider. Maybe even try running it at one of your local events sometime and you'll see what I mean about its advantages and that it's still very skillful play. As much, I feel, as pingolf is anyway.

    sounds like a really cool idea to me!

    #363 5 years ago

    very cool! thanks for sharing.

    what about player count of those with 5+ events over the years?

    In other words how has ranked player count tracked over the years?

    #369 5 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    I have no idea what the means lol
    If you add the numbers from 5 events plus all the numbers to the right of it for each year, you'll get that total of players competing in 5+ events per year.

    yeah I was not very clear.

    Of the players that played in 1, 2, 3, 4, ... events per year, how many of them are worth .5 base points. In other words, are there lots of return players that are rated (5+ events) or is there a decent amount of turnover where experienced players stop playing competitively?

    Maybe I am not understanding the tables above? I assume those were columns showing # of events played and each cell shows the count of players for that year and number of event intersection.

    #371 5 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    That's definitely a question for Shepherd

    OK.

    Now can you tell me your TWD strategy please? Monthly is on Wed and I could use some tips

    #374 5 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Pro or premium (walker bombs make a HUGE difference)?

    pro

    #376 5 years ago

    Thanks. MUCH appreciated and looking forward to the interview.

    #377 5 years ago

    Also just to make sure I understand correctly the only way to start a mode is drop the 3 bank and then you pick by hitting one of the flashing choices?

    #397 5 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    One of my favorite people to track is our lovely C2C pinball host Mr. Nate Shivers

    this is cool.

    Is there an easy way to do this for ourselves and see our history over time.

    #402 5 years ago

    Thanks Josh.

    That is Very cool and I appreciate you doing that.

    Quoted from desertT1:

    Am I reading this correct that the first ranking was 1414? That's basically winning (or coming close to) the first event you play in right?

    Yes, I took 5th place in my very first competition and a huge thanks to Jason "The clogger" Werdrick. He was super nice to me, gave me some great tips, and then I beat him

    http://www.ifpapinball.com/view_tournament.php?t=3232#results

    I have not beaten him since but still always lots of fun to play with/against him.

    #405 5 years ago

    I will say that looking at my rank over time definately is not good for me to look at. Now I have this sudden urge to go play more pinball.

    Luckily the local monthly is tonight

    #409 5 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Remember that back in 2012 we only had ~9000 players, so him jumping from 9000th to 1414th is like someone today jumping in from 33,000th to 5,185th.

    well dont take away that I beat a top 30 player and took a top 10 player down to the last ball and only a couple switches away from victory. That day still holds as a highlight that nobody can take away. I really owe it all to the godfather (as do most local players that can thank him for bringing competitive pinball to WI).

    #411 5 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    You gotta earn them switches son!

    Best beat to date is still the EM world pinball championships, losing 1st round match by 40points on fireball!!!!

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