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(Topic ID: 104676)

WPPR formula change for 2015!

By ifpapinball

6 years ago

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  • 443 posts
  • 65 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by desertT1
  • Topic is favorited by 13 Pinsiders


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    #3 6 years ago

    Love the changes.

    The first bullet of "Overview of Changes for 2015" says "league season", where the third bullet of "Basic Rules" says "league event". This is in regards to submission of results. Are both of those areas intended to say league event?

    Quoted from Frax:

    And most importantly, I will get a few years to just relax and enjoy pinball until this all shakes out and it becomes clear if Dallas is going to turn into a black hole of competition...which it will...because ain't nobody driving an hour and a half one way for .5 points. I fully expect as someone that can't travel much, the only events that may reach 25 points within 250 miles of me will be Texas Pinball Festival and HAAG, and I won't have to do anything for at least another year to maintain a respectable ranking because nobody aside from the guys in the top 100 that go to the 'majors' will be earning all that many points to knock off old results anyways.
    Been way too tourney focused the last two years and I feel like I've missed out on just having fun sometimes just so I could get more points, because attending tourneys does cost my broke ----- a lot of time and money.. especially when I lose. Ugh.

    I don't really care about my world ranking. I know I can't travel as well as place high enough to make it very impressive. If I can get it to sub-1000 I'd be happy. What I am looking forward to is the credit monthly tournaments will now get compared to the annual events. This will do a lot for the dedicated players when it comes to their in state ranking.

    My goal this year was to make it to every monthly my local place puts on. That's going well and my wife is perfectly fine with the 3rd Wednesday of the month being basically untouchable.

    My goal next year is to be in the top 16 (or 20, depending on who shows up) in the state to qualify for that tournament.

    I also want to travel more next year, but the big focus is hitting all of the state events I can.

    I know it will take a few years for the past events to shake out so everything that is recorded was graded the same way. That's why I just want to get better and improve in the state while branching out for events just to do them.

    If you are worried about local players, why not form a league? If you can find at least one place to play, get a group together and get some points that way. My league started with 9 players and an op location. Now we are at 19, just a few months in, and I'm about to start a waiting list. We have 2 homes that have opened to host as well. Nobody has the 8 games that we play at each event (except for the op location), but members bring machines to the host location so we do hit those numbers. Everyone has a good time, which is nice for me.

    #10 6 years ago
    Quoted from jlm33:

    Small tourneys now earn peanuts.
    Are you sure this is how you want to promote competitive play??

    How small is small and what is the value of peanuts? The way it is going to be is so much better than, for example, that event that had 3 players and was still worth 25 points. The monthlies I play in have anywhere from 18 to 30 players in them. We play 10 machines, so with only 18 players that event is 3.6 points plus TVA. Currently, those monthlies are worth 2 points.

    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    I did change it to league event.
    Event being a 'submitted result' which can consist of an entire season worth of meetings, or individual meetings. It'll be up to the league to determine how they want to submit their results.

    Ok, gotcha. Just wanted to make sure I was remembering correctly.

    #17 6 years ago
    Quoted from pkiefert:

    I think what's frustrating about the ranking system is that since many of the big tournaments are some form of a pump and dump format, meaning you can continue to pay for more entires to try and improve your score, those that are great players but can't afford to put $200 into entries at these type of tournaments don't show well in the rankings.
    It'd be interesting to know what the average money that is spent to qualify in A's or B's at some of these bigger tournaments are, as I bet it's higher than most people think.
    For instance, we have a guy here in Atlanta that is probably one of the best players in the area, but he doesn't play much in these bigger tourneys since the cost is so high to do so to stay competitive. And at least in the past, the bigger the tournament, the more points it's worth, etc.
    I don't really have a solution to offer though. Wish I did. I understand that bigger pots attract bigger players, etc. So I see the draw of that. But I think the way most tournaments are structured some to alienate the more casual players, some of which are super skilled.
    About the only idea I have is to make multiple entry tournaments worth less points than say a single entry tournament, but I'm sure that has plenty of pitfalls itself.
    So to me, if one of the purposes of the IFPA is to help bring new people into pinball, which is a great goal BTW, the costs to be competitive in the rankings seems to work against that goal.

    I think it was in a TPF thread, but somebody suggested that you don't get to buy unlimited tickets for events. Instead, you get a card and have 3 chances on each machine. Before you play a machine, the card gets punched, and then the scorekeeper submits your score. That would be more appealing to me since a friend of mine who did Zapcon's event last year said he spent close to $200 in tickets for him and his son. I was pretty shocked because I had no idea that you could pump and dump until you got a score you were happy with. Maybe up the overall price of a ticket (good for 3 plays on each machine) so that the pot doesn't go down too much. If you can't get there in 3 games, I don't think you should be able to keep chasing that magic game in the hopes of buying your way into contention.

    #80 6 years ago
    Quoted from bcrage88:

    I was in a tourney this weekend in Abbotsford, Canada with an excellent format you paid $35 bucks got to play three rounds of 10 machines to qualify. Everyone got the same amount of entries and this was a PAPA circuit santioned event. One of the best and fairest I have seen format wise. Everyone is limited to three chances at each machine to qualify top 16, so you do not get the ole pump and dump. First prize was $5000 too just an awesome well run event, wish there were more that were this format. Pinburgh is the only other one that come to mind where you just pay your entry and everyone plays the same amount of times to achieve final ranking...

    Quoted from bkerins:

    FYI, this was the format of this past weekend's Fraser Valley Flipout in Canada, which was a PAPA Circuit event. Looks like it was well run and fun for a lot of players.

    I love this idea. 3 games is enough that if you are a great player, your scores will reflect that. I wonder if there is any chance that Zapcon will adopt this for next year. I honestly have zero interest in the purse total. I'm not rich, have two kids, and have a real life. I do want to walk away from an event knowing that I had a fair shake and placed where I did based on everyone having the exact same situation presented to them.

    #206 6 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    Yeah, wasn't to say necessarily that actual positions will shuffle that much, but will make advancement over the next 4 years that much more difficult until all this junk fully decays out. It's still kind of hard for me to wrap my brain around the fact that a tournament result I just submitted will exist in IFPA records for a time longer than I have been IN THE HOBBY currently.

    There are records in IFPA older than I am.

    I know they don't count for today, but they are there.

    #216 6 years ago
    Quoted from Winball_Pizard:

    This belongs here I think. I'm sure a lot of people have heard it already if you troll pinball website like I do at work Great interview and Josh addresses a lot of the questions in this thread about the wppr rule change and other cool pinball stuff.

    That was enjoyable. Even though I knew the details they went over, the outside things were really cool to have access to. I also have a new podcast to follow.

    #218 6 years ago
    Quoted from C2CPinball:

    Hey desertT1, glad you liked the show. Small world, I went to middle school in Vail, AZ.

    We moved to Vail from Tucson for the school district. Small world indeed as Vail isn't all that large.

    1 week later
    #245 6 years ago

    I have one. I recently saw this thread:

    I really like the idea of a single elimination event at a location where you can get a beer. Won't take several hours, but would be a way to get together for some fun competition. I don't like ties though, so I'm thinking something like this.

    Let's say 8 players show up. The first round would eliminate half the players. The winners would move on. Those eliminated would each play another single game, everyone plays the same machine. Those scores are ranked, so there is a true 5th thru 8th. The next round does the same thing, but since there are only two players getting eliminated, their consolation game is basically head to head. Third round is the finals.

    So, the winner has to play 3 games to get the win. Does that grade out to 12% since that is basically the longest path?

    With 8 players that seems like it will be very fast. Maybe it could be adjusted for the number of players that show up. 8 and under, double elim. 9+ is single elim.

    #247 6 years ago

    OK. I think that is on the low side of how many would show up. A little promoting and numbers showing up would be better, especially if we do it when there are beer specials.

    #248 6 years ago

    Are weeklies/bi-weeklies considered a tournament or a league when it comes to submiting them ahead of time? Whopper Wednesdays in BC can be the example here. They don't have recent events, so I can really investigate on the IFPA calendar.

    I just got word that a local place is willing to let me and another player help maintain their few pins so that we can bring in a few small events a month. If it's one a month, I can see that being addeda head of time, but if it's a regular thing (like 2nd and 4th Wednesday), it seems like it might fall in between a league and a monthly. It won't be a set roster. Whoever shows up, will play.

    Just looking for advise how to do things properly.

    #251 5 years ago
    Quoted from desertT1:

    Are weeklies/bi-weeklies considered a tournament or a league when it comes to submiting them ahead of time? Whopper Wednesdays in BC can be the example here. They don't have recent events, so I can really investigate on the IFPA calendar.
    I just got word that a local place is willing to let me and another player help maintain their few pins so that we can bring in a few small events a month. If it's one a month, I can see that being addeda head of time, but if it's a regular thing (like 2nd and 4th Wednesday), it seems like it might fall in between a league and a monthly. It won't be a set roster. Whoever shows up, will play.
    Just looking for advise how to do things properly.

    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    If you have to join something ahead of time and it requires mandatory attendance to multiple events, we would consider that a league.
    If results are being submitted based on the activity from that evening, and anyone can show up at the it leisure week to week or month to month, then we consider those tournaments.
    Your example sounds like a typical weekly or monthly tournament which would have to be on the calendar ahead of time to be endorsed.

    After reading Bob's latest post on IFPA breaking down different events and how they grade out, I think I forgot a detail in my last question. In single elimination, does it matter if it's one game or best of 3?

    8 player, single elim, single game, longest path is 3.

    8 player, single elim, best of 3, longest path is 9.

    So it could be either 12% or 36% depending on the number of best-of, right?

    #258 5 years ago
    Quoted from Xerico:

    Yes, it matters.
    If you do a single elimination, then each match would only add 1 game to game count.If you ran a best 2 out of 3, then each match would add 3 games to the game count.

    Thank you.

    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Everything Marcus says is 100% correct

    And, thank you.

    I think this is going to be a very fun little bi-weekly event. Won't be over in a flash, but won't take all night either.

    2 months later
    #268 5 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    Just curious when the new formula is going live and when the switch will be flipped?
    I would like to see how things are shaping up and where I stand as I make plans for travel this year.

    I'm curious too. January is a lot busier than I was prepared for. So far, we've had:

    1 bi-weekly
    1 monthly
    1 league event
    1 'annual' style event. 19 players and will grade out to 100%.

    Tonight, we have the beginning of a 3-day qualification/16 player bracket finals event. Tough to get away for that one, so not sure if I'll make it. Qualifying goes until Friday, so maybe I'll head up after the work week is over and try to make a run.

    Also have another bi-weekly tonight.

    So far I've come in 5th in the league event, won the first bi-weekly, let's not talk about the monthly (13 of 19, ouch), and came in 4th in the one I labeled 'annual'. To say I'm very anxious to see where I currently sit is almost an understatement. I'm off to a much better start than last year with my first win ever (only been doing this ~a year) in a non-league event, and did a decent job against some good players in the big event.

    4 months later
    #302 5 years ago
    Quoted from Dbaum88:

    I am a newish IFPA player with some success here in my local leagues and tourneys. I watch the points closely and have enjoyed moving up in the rankings, slowly but surely.
    NOW - IFPA has subtracted three points from my scores (scores I was already awarded months ago) and I have dropped some 250 spots! This is ridiculous. It has been retroactive as even points I earned and was awarded in January have been reduced! For example, in Jan., I won first place in a league and was awarded over 6 points. Now that has indiscriminately been reduced to 4.79 points!
    This sucks....why bother???? If you can just subtract points whenever you feel. Player # 16180.

    Just as an FYI, last year your JAN 29th win (~5 points) would have been worth 25/# of events that year. It looks like the H2H event is every 2 weeks, so 26 events a year. Would have been less than a point last year. Now weeklies, bi-weeklies, and monthlies are rated the same as annual events. 25-30 player monthlies at my local place used to be worth ~2.11 for a win. The current method is much better. It still favors locations that have a large following, but many of those places have a long history of organized events.

    Locally (Tucson area), we can't compete with Phoenix, and between those bodies, we make up the SCS list. I started the Tucson league (one event a month) because the Phoenix one was at capacity and locals wanted a place to play with friends. I also started a bi-weekly head to head event for two reasons. To try and get a trickle of new players interested with low (and now no) entry fee. Also it gave anyone who wanted it a way to work on playing head to head. Everything else available locally is a linear format and that doesn't give you the same nerves as when it's just you and another player and you have to show up or you will have a short day.

    7th in the state isn't bad at all, and that is what I would focus on for now. Many of the top 100-200 players get in a huge regional event or two a year, which is where a lot of points happen. If you want to travel for those, that will help your world ranking quite a bit. But, if you want to bring up the point values locally, do a few events yourself and try to bring in new players. I think that you will find that over the course of putting on a few events, you will evolve how you approach things. I know I have seen this personally, and I imagine IFPA is having to go through this on a larger scale as well.

    I'm currently 11th in AZ and my short term goal is to get in to SCS finals this year. After that I will maybe play less in the PHX events, but try to travel to some of the larger events to do those.

    Like Frax said though, I wish my ranking was the same in the few different places you can look. I don't know what I'm ranked in the world right now, but can get a pretty good range to guess at.

    #337 5 years ago
    Quoted from Zaxxis:

    I actually think it's MORE possible under the current system, as local tournaments periodic tournaments can be worth alot more than they ever could be in the past. I went to a local tournament here in WI last week and the winner got 8.9 points. If that same tournament is held every month this year and gets the same winner, that person would get 106 points! In the past, the most they could get is 25 points.
    Throw in a few larger (but local) events and one convention-type tournament and you'll be close to the top 100.
    Of course, we're not combining events (aka periodics) so that person can't amass 20 combo-events for their card, but this is a good thing IMHO as each event is judged pretty much the same.
    Also consider that it could be harder to reach the top 100 by just playing local tournaments because the competition is usually getting better. More people start attending, players are improving, etc. So a new player entering your local ecosystem has a tougher time reaching the top 100 because you and other players are taking away points they might earn and the same exists for you.

    I noticed this in the AZ SCS and AZ players' world rankings since Tucson has gotten involved with IFPA events. Local monthlies started late 2013 and IFPA was a part of that shortly after. In 2013 there were a handful of Tucson players in IFPA's records and zero in the state's top 16. In 2014 Tucson had 5 players in the top 16. Currently there are 5 Tucson players in the top 16 and 1 in there who is from PHX, but heavily active in Tucson events.

    We are also seeing top local players work their ways up the intl rankings too. We had 2 crack the top 1000 this year and a few of us aren't far behind. The top 3 spots in the state are still in a pretty firm grasp, but 2 of those 3 travel as well and have been doing this for a little while.

    The best part: There isn't a single person I see at events that I hope doesn't come to future events. That's the best part about this hobby is the competitive participants may be really good, but are typically also really cool/good people.

    #365 5 years ago

    Any insight on what changes may happen with elimination grading? The regulars in my bi-weekly elimination event are actually pretty interested in the ways things work and changes that happen.

    #368 5 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Nothing to talk about at this point, or else everyone will beat the horse to death before it's even born

    Sounds good. Whatever change happens will affect the group the same as far as the event standings go in the future, so nobody will have it any easier getting a trophy than they do today.

    #391 5 years ago
    Quoted from Dbaum88:


    See? This is the typical elitist attitude that will keep pinball SMALL. I can't become a top 100 player overnight, just as very few of you did. The IFPA should want inclusion; to continue to grow our hobby. Josh should know this better than anyone.
    Take Sleethering's comment - "adults whining about scores.". Thats what YOU all do constantly. It's just when a top 2300 player complains that the top 100 players smile smugly and say stop complaining, play better.
    If you keep up this attitude long enough, it will be back to 100 guys in a room playing for $50.

    I think what was being said is that a rating system isn't very good at its job if the top players are not at the top. I didn't read that as it is set up to have players x,y,z (and so on) ranked in the top 100.

    There is one way to get into the top 100. Play high point events and do well. My state has one convention which is pretty large. The main event was just over 21 points and the classics was just over 20 points. There are a few others in state that will get close, but that's it. Compared to some of the CA events, Zapcon isn't even 2/3 of those events. CA has and advantage over AZ, but that's just the way it is.

    GA looks like an area pretty ripe for growth, but, just like AZ, will have a tough time competing with CA and NYC point values. So what choices do I (we) have to crack the top 100. Travel. Until then, stay in the top 16 in your state as that is a much better evaluation of how you are doing compared to local players.

    #396 5 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    I get it David for sure . . . it fucking sucks.
    The good news is holy crap do you guys have a ton of stuff going on in the Atlanta area. Between the H2H league, the NGPL and Southern Fried coming up, I could think of worse places in the world for you to be with respect to access to tournaments near you.
    You'll have to shoot me a PM and let me know where you end up at the end of 2015, because I'll definitely take the under on getting back to 2300 in 6 months (especially if you plan on attending Southern Fried).

    Josh, you know I run TPL, but also the Tucson bi-weekly. I opened the ATL H2H records and was instantly jealous. Seriously, 12-14 players every 2 weeks. We get 5-8 every 2 weeks, but it's grown from the 3-5 we were getting earlier this year. Dude, Dbaum, keep hitting those up. Those events are going to end up with a huge total points value in your state. You are solidly 5th of 14 in several of the events and look at the INTL rankings of the players finishing ahead of you. You pick off one of those guys every now and then and before you know it you will be right there with your numbers.

    #400 5 years ago
    Quoted from haugstrup:

    Keep in mind that CA tournaments are also harder to win. I'm not convinced the advantage is huge when Andrei Massenkoff and Aaron Nelson etc. show up at local monthly tournaments (or Karl Deangelo and Jim Belsito in SoCal). Yes, California tournaments have more points on the line than Arizona tournaments, but those points are also a lot harder to get at.

    True. It's almost a chicken/egg issue, maybe more of a damned if you do damned if you don't. You can't have large point event without large attendance, but once you have those large points available, you are going to have some traveling competition showing up to make things that much harder.

    #401 5 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    I know that Greg Dunlap had created a WPPR Nerdery page where you could view your rank and points earned over time . . . but can't seem to find that link (or if it's still active).
    While I don't have the time to query everybody, I'm sure there's enough Pinsiders that wouldn't mind seeing your rise up the ranks since you were a young Whysnow pup back in 2012
    We archive rankings/ratings at the first of every month, so it's not as detailed as it could be, but here you go!
    3/1/2012 1414
    4/1/2012 1466
    5/1/2012 1504
    6/1/2012 1550
    7/1/2012 1591
    8/1/2012 1621
    9/1/2012 1663
    10/1/2012 1721
    11/1/2012 1730
    12/1/2012 1797
    1/1/2013 1847
    2/1/2013 1857
    3/1/2013 2242
    4/1/2013 1544
    5/1/2013 1590
    6/1/2013 1607
    7/1/2013 1649
    8/1/2013 1671
    9/1/2013 1715
    10/1/2013 1517
    11/1/2013 1408
    12/1/2013 1402
    1/1/2014 1176
    2/1/2014 1194
    3/1/2014 1116
    4/1/2014 729
    5/1/2014 712
    6/1/2014 707
    7/1/2014 723
    8/1/2014 735
    9/1/2014 743
    10/1/2014 647
    11/1/2014 671
    12/1/2014 703
    1/1/2015 350
    2/1/2015 355
    3/1/2015 363
    4/1/2015 359
    5/1/2015 341
    6/1/2015 321

    Am I reading this correct that the first ranking was 1414? That's basically winning (or coming close to) the first event you play in right?

    #408 5 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Hilton actually did have a solid 'first tournament' finish. He finished 5th at an 'annual - full value' tournaments up in Wisconsin.
    Remember that back in 2012 we only had ~9000 players, so him jumping from 9000th to 1414th is like someone today jumping in from 33,000th to 5,185th.

    Good point, thanks for the clarification.

    #416 5 years ago
    Quoted from jonnyo:

    Make sure to advertise your tournaments in every local paper that has a free events listing section. Make small signs and stick them on all the backglasses of the venue. Collect emails from attendees and offer to spam them when an event is coming up. Start a wordpress blog to post results. Meetup is also a good option but is around $60 for 6 months, IIRC.

    Honestly, the location we currently use for the bi-weekly sucks for getting new eyes. It's got a pretty good bank of 4 machines though, so we are happy to support it. All of the players we have gained are ones I know and have played with (against?) at the monthlies at the 30 pin location we all started at (D&D). Actually, that's not entirely true. We have one new player who walked into D&D during a league event and has taken hook, line, and sinker. He's a cool person and a good player.

    Now, with the second location for our bi-weekly we will have access to many more eyes. Roller hockey and indoor soccer on alternating days, so a new set of traffic every hour every afternoon-evening of the day. Decent bar with good food. I will have large signs too. I already have a FB page for the event, but didn't really think about free events sections in the papers. Will look into that. The populations is certainly there, now it's just getting people aware and interested.

    #437 5 years ago

    Did something change over the weekend, or recently? AZ #1 was in the 150's and is now in the 120's. Looks like everyone was affected, but not sure what happened.

    #439 5 years ago

    I guess I should also clarify. AZ's #1 player had ~150 points for the 2015 SCS and now they have 128.xx. I actually moved up a few spots in AZ over the weekend, but that's because an entry from an event went live.

    #441 5 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    This looks to be the WPPR v5.1 adjustment related to the Rated players change. If I glance at Mark's results, Zapcon lost 17.5 base points for the Main Tournament (which he won, so he sees 100% of that loss). The Classics tournament lost 5.5 base points as well, so Mark saw some portion of that loss with his 2nd place finish.

    Makes sense, but I thought the non-rated player hit had already happened. Is this something that will happen every few months, or will future results account for any non-rated players who played?

    #443 5 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    We weren't able to get it when we made the announcement about the change, so it just went in recently.
    See the date where this thread became more 'active' after dormant for a while. I'll say the changes actually went in that day

    Gotcha. Thanks for the info.

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