(Topic ID: 259715)

WPC with Rottendog MPU and anyPin DMD+ NVRAM


By NoTellin

8 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 27 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 days ago by barakandl
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 8 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

6809 (resized).png
image1 (resized).jpeg
image0 (resized).jpeg
image3 (resized).jpeg
image2 (resized).jpeg
A2D5FA9F-D869-473F-92CB-F94DFAF264AF (resized).jpeg
9E8A9358-755D-4CF6-959A-42F457D0948F (resized).jpeg
20200115_164547 (resized).jpg

#1 8 days ago

Hi everyone, I recently installed an anyPin DMD NVRAM in my WMS IJ without incident, it fired up first try. Today I tried to install one in my ST:TNG. The difference is that the MPU board is a Rottendog. I was happy to see that there was already a chip socket... Easy right. However when I install the chip, the pin won't boot. There is a tone but no display and no beginning cycle / sequence. I killed power and I re-seated the chip... no change. So I put the original 62256 ram chip back in and reattached the batteries... Back to normal. SO - Do I need to buy a specific 62256 NVRAM chip or should the anyPin work? Could it be a bad NVRAM chip? Anybody experience this before? Any help / advise is appreciated!!!

#2 8 days ago
Quoted from NoTellin:

Hi everyone, I recently installed an anyPin DMD NVRAM in my WMS IJ without incident, it fired up first try. Today I tried to install one in my ST:TNG. The difference is that the MPU board is a Rottendog. I was happy to see that there was already a chip socket... Easy right. However when I install the chip, the pin won't boot. There is a tone but no display and no beginning cycle / sequence. I killed power and I re-seated the chip... no change. So I put the original 62256 ram chip back in and reattached the batteries... Back to normal. SO - Do I need to buy a specific 62256 NVRAM chip or should the anyPin work? Could it be a bad NVRAM chip? Anybody experience this before? Any help / advise is appreciated!!!

anyPin DMD+ work fine in WPC CPUs.

What version RD CPU are you using? What is printed on the board?

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#3 8 days ago

Lots of bad fake fm1608 nvram floating around

#4 8 days ago

The first 50 RD MPUs built used a different RAM part with a pinout incompatible with a 6264.
You might have one of those boards.
Otherwise...it should work fine.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#5 8 days ago
Quoted from Astill:

Lots of bad fake fm1608 nvram floating around

Umm...hmm...OK...

Each FM1608 used in anyPin is tested at least three times. Once when it comes in, once in the Inquisitor RAM tester when the anyPin is finished, and once in an actual game. It's tested more if the anyPin is a multi-funtion version, as each configuration is independently tested.

In addition to the testing, every single anyPin NVRAM Battery Eliminator is guaranteed for life. If one would fail for any reason, it will be replaced under the anyPin Lifetime Guarantee. That's how confident I am in this product, and the quality of parts used.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#6 8 days ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

The first 50 RD MPUs built used a different RAM part with a pinout incompatible with a 6264.
You might have one of those boards.
Otherwise...it should work fine.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

This is mostly correct, but even Jim doesn't know how many of the first revision he made. I'd say 50 is way more than he would confirm.

A quick way to tell; does the board use surface mount parts? If it does, then it's this first revision, and is not compatible with any widely available NVRAM.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#7 8 days ago
Quoted from Borygard:

I'd say 50 is way more than he would confirm.

If you talk to Jim again, ask. I'm sure that is what he told me, quite a long, long time ago.

The board that I worked on didn't have any SMD parts. It looked just about identical to the widely produced board today. But the RAM socket pinout was different. The client took it upon himself, after I repaired his attempt to socket the location, to find a compatible pinout NVRAM, and eventually did. I didn't note the part number but I do recall that it was a Cypress part.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#8 8 days ago

Thanks Rob / Chris! I'll get a picture of the MPU board tonight after work. I bought it in 2009 so it could be a vintage rev. ?
Brad

#9 8 days ago
Quoted from NoTellin:

Thanks Rob / Chris! I'll get a picture of the MPU board tonight after work. I bought it in 2009 so it could be a vintage rev. ?
Brad

There is "NoTellin" without a pic...
I got a million of 'em!
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#10 8 days ago

They could be using the upper address bit in the 62256 to get an easier trace route if a 6264 NVRAM module is not working. Try a FM1808 dip28 chip by RAMTROM. It is the same size and pin out as 62256 so it should drop in and work.

#11 7 days ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

If you talk to Jim again, ask...

I have, and his response was he doesn't remember, but thought it was under a dozen.

You may be thinking about the first of the WPC95 version of the RD CPU. That one would indeed only work with a 62256.

A workaround for anyPin on that board is to remove pin 26. anyPin will then work fine in the board.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#12 7 days ago

Yes, I have an early version and I have to use batteries instead of NVRAM. Never looked into changing it, here is a pic of the chips

20200115_164547 (resized).jpg
#13 7 days ago

eyeamred2u
That part number, U62256ADK07LLG1, is an Alliance Memory 62256 with the "normal" 62256 pinout. You can safely swap a common 6264 NVRAM module of your choice in there, including Rob's anyPin module. I see that part in a lot of RD boards.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#14 7 days ago
Quoted from Borygard:

You may be thinking about the first of the WPC95 version of the RD CPU. That one would indeed only work with a 62256.

Good to know, but the board I repaired for Mr. JL, was a WPC-089 MPU. It also had some of the switch matrix connectors installed upside-down. The whole thing was a bit odd. I performed the repair back in July of 2018.

I cleaned up the traces from a failed attempt to install a socket, installed a 6264 NVRAM but no joy.
So I began buzzing traces. Nothing was making sense, so I called RD. I talked to "Rod" and to Jim. Jim filled me in on the different configuration of some early boards. I have "50" written in my notes.

I sourced a Cypress 62256L, which has a different pinout, and bam, all was well.

See the pinouts, below. The Cypress part is on the left. A “normal” 6264 is on the right.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

9E8A9358-755D-4CF6-959A-42F457D0948F (resized).jpegA2D5FA9F-D869-473F-92CB-F94DFAF264AF (resized).jpeg
#15 7 days ago

I appreciate the help!

image0 (resized).jpegimage1 (resized).jpegimage2 (resized).jpegimage3 (resized).jpeg
#16 7 days ago

I'm pretty sure that you have one of the early, early boards that Rob and I have been discussing.
Let's verify that.

Meter on continuity.
Game off or board removed.
Black on 68B09EP, pin 16. This is A8, address line 8
Red on RAM pin 4 and then pin 25.
Which one buzzes?

Note: pin 1 is always the upper left pin when the IC is oriented notch facing up. Pins are numbered down the left side, across to the right side, and then up the right side.

If pin 4 buzzes, then you definitely have the early board and you need a different NVRAM than the typical 6264.
If pin 25 buzzes, then a normal 6264 (or 62256) NVRAM should work and something else is awry.

Does the board have any other "serial numbers" other than WPC-089 TH? Or a manufacture date?

Please let us know.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#17 7 days ago

Pin 1 being highest address A14 on most 62256 part (and FM1808), but pin 1 being A5 on the Cypress 62256 part might the reason a 6264 NVRAM does not drop in depending on how they wired it. If they have CPU A5 to 62256 socket p1 then the 6264 NVRAM is not going to work because it will be missing an address bit.

For the function it does not really matter how the address is wired up, but if they are using a pin that is not connected on 6264 nvram its obviously not going to work.

That is funny the cypress part pin out is done that way. I thought they where supposed to follow the "JEDEC" standard... but I guess not.

#18 7 days ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

eyeamred2u
That part number, U62256ADK07LLG1, is an Alliance Memory 62256 with the "normal" 62256 pinout. You can safely swap a common 6264 NVRAM module of your choice in there, including Rob's anyPin module. I see that part in a lot of RD boards.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Thanks Chris.

#19 7 days ago

I tested continuity from CPU pin 25 to Ram Pin 4 & Pin 25 - Neither tone. The pin that does - Ram Pin 18. Hopefully that makes sense, let me know if you want me to test any other connection points, I have the board out so it's easy.

THANK YOU!

#20 6 days ago

I think you were on CPU pin 24 notellin. The lower right pin with the 68B09EP vertical is pin 21.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

6809 (resized).png
#21 6 days ago

Whoops. My bad. Too many numbers rolling around in the old gray matter.
I gave you the wrong 68B09EP pin for A8. It should have been 16.

Corrected test instructions notellin ...

Meter on continuity.
Game off or board removed.
Black on 68B09EP, pin 16. This is A8, address line 8
Red on RAM pin 4 and then pin 25.
Which one buzzes?

I'm sure it's going to be pin 4. That would be consistent with your prior test results.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#22 6 days ago

Thanks Chris! Confirmed continuity from CPU Pin 16 to Ram Pin 4. So I'll save the anyPin DMD+ for my next machine. Can you recommend a 62256 NVRAM Chip that will work? I'm sure I can do the homework and find one, but figured I'd ask since you have the expertise.
Thanks again for all the help!
Brad

#23 6 days ago

Hi Brad, Yay....it's good to finally know.
Question: was the RAM position on your board socketed already? Just curious. The board I worked on was NOT.

I've been poking around the vast expanses of the InterWebs for a Cypress 62256L pinout compatible NVRAM but I haven't found anything. I contacted the client that had the board I worked on but he's since sold the game. He found an FM1808 based NVRAM module. An FM1808 is a Ramtron 62256 with "normal" JEDEC compatible 62256 pinout. The board it was carried on must have rerouted the traces otherwise it would never work. He bought two at the time, from eBay. He's looking for the extra part and if he finds it he will send it to me for analysis.

Could you take a picture of the board, laying flat on something, with all parts in focus, and email it to me at chrishiblerpinball@gmail.com or even text it to me at 636 Four Three Two 3589 ? I'd like to add a pic of the board to the PinWiki so we can help the other 48 (or so) folks that own this board.
Thanks!
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#24 6 days ago

Fm1808 or a 62256 nvram module should work even if pin 1 of the ram is wired to cpu address 13 or lower.

The only thing different with the Cypress 62256 pin out vs Fm1808 i see is the address counting order. For a ram chip does not matter what order the address count goes in for function on the mpu. A5 can swap with a14 and etc.

#25 5 days ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Fm1808 or a 62256 nvram module should work even if pin 1 of the ram is wired to cpu address 13 or lower.
The only thing different with the Cypress 62256 pin out vs Fm1808 i see is the address counting order. For a ram chip does not matter what order the address count goes in for function on the mpu. A5 can swap with a14 and etc.

notellin barakandl
I thought about Andrew's post last night and came to the conclusion that I agree with him. He points out the key characteristic that will allow a chip with a different address bus pinout to work. The data and chip select signals are all still common. The processor puts a specific address on the address bus and enables an answer from the RAM. The Cypress RAM will pull from a different physical location than most other RAMs, but it won't make a difference since the reading and writing of data is always consistent.

Grab yourself a 62256 NVRAM and you should be good to go.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#26 5 days ago

I have installed 62256 NVRAM on 3 different early Rottendog MPU boards for different people without any issues.

#27 5 days ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

notellin barakandl
I thought about Andrew's post last night and came to the conclusion that I agree with him. He points out the key characteristic that will allow a chip with a different address bus pinout to work. The data and chip select signals are all still common. The processor puts a specific address on the address bus and enables an answer from the RAM. The Cypress RAM will pull from a different physical location than most other RAMs, but it won't make a difference since the reading and writing of data is always consistent.
Grab yourself a 62256 NVRAM and you should be good to go.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

yep... and if the board is wired up to the cpu using the cyrpess count that puts a lower address on pin 1 which for a 6264 nvram module is not connected to anything. so even tho the WPC ram size actually used would fit into a 6264's space, since a low address is put to pin 1 its not going to run. On the regular WPC MPUs Williams followed the "JEDEC" standard which means you can easily use a 6264 NVRAM. Even easier you can leave the 62256 jumper in place on the Williams original WPC MPU and use a 6264 NVRAM because the NVRAM does not have chip enable 2 used or connected.

You could probably rotate lower address bits around so they all line up to used address in a 6264 but its likely not worth trying to hack on the replacement MPU or build a pin re-arranging socket stack. Just get a FM1808 or 62256 nvram module built around the FM18W08 for these MPU boards.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 79.99
Cabinet - Armor And Blades
PinGraffix Pinside Shop
$ 64.99
$ 16.50
Lighting - Led
Lermods
From: $ 369.95
Boards
PinSound
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Oceanside, CA
$ 48.00
Cabinet - Other
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 99.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Sales
$ 399.95
Lighting - Led
Pin Stadium Pinball LEDs
$ 279.95
Lighting - Led
Pin Stadium Pinball LEDs
$ 20.00
Playfield - Decals
Pinfarmer Mods
$ 10.00
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
Gweem's Mods
$ 999.00
Pinball Machine
Mircoplayfields
$ 24.99
Lighting - Led
Lee's Parts
From: $ 129.10
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
PinWoofer
$ 40.00
Lighting - Other
Rock Custom Pinball
$ 135.00
Lighting - Led
LED OCD
4,950 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Cape Coral, FL
$ 64.00
Lighting - Under Cabinet
Lermods
From: $ 175.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Photos
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Milwaukee, WI
From: $ 200.00
Lighting - Interactive
Professor Pinball
From: $ 175.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Photos
Hey modders!
Your shop name here

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside