(Topic ID: 199022)

WPC-S GI question


By SPARKY70

2 years ago



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  • 54 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Durzel
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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There are 54 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 2 years ago

Hi. I noticed during test mode that the GI lights on my Shadow dont dim during GI test. They are at full brightness all the time.
I assume that they should dim on the shadow. Can anyone confirm?
I read in another post that adjustment #25 "allow dim illum" needs to be set to yes, and mine IS set to yes. Is there anything else i can check?
I am running tradional bulbs, NOT LEDS. Can anybody confirm if The Shadow actually uses the dimming effect. I will post my rom version, soon. Thanks. Sparky

#2 2 years ago

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-shadow-club/page/58#post-3190878

which states: "Luckily for Shadow, the only GI dimming is at the start of Shadow multiball"

Note: I can't confirm this... just copying and pasting...

#3 2 years ago

Have software ver.LF-6 here and can dim in test T.6

Does ZeroCrossing (120Hz USA /100Hz EU) signal arrive at U9 ? (reseat ribbon / push U9 in socket)

#4 2 years ago

Tiesmasc, thanks fir the link. Seems like they should dim.

Zaza. Ive got rom LX-5. Change history looks like there was no change for GI lights from mine to LX-6.

Not sure what zerocrossing is, but i will look into reseating ribbon, and U9. Ill post results. Thanks. Sparky

#6 2 years ago

Thanks zaza,i assume you have LX6, not LF-6.
i just checked out your link. Unfortunately, i dont have an oscilloscope.
Is there a way i can test without one?
I will press on U9, and reseat ribbon cable. I just want to make sure i am pressing U9 square chip on CPU?? Also which ribbon are you referring to, driver board to cpu J211? Thanks

#7 2 years ago

Yes correct, U9 on the CPU-Board and the ribbon cable between CPU- and PowerDriverBoard.

Without a oscilloscope / logic probe / frequency function on multimeter it would be difficult to tell if there is a ZC signal at CPU U9.
But you can measure continuity from testpoint TP4 (powerdriverboard) to U9-71 (CPU-board) with machine OFF and careful with needle in socket.

Voltage at TP4 is pulsing between 0 and 5 volt @ 100 or 120 HZ and I had about 0.4Volt average. Value could be different with another multimeter.

ZC.jpg

#8 2 years ago

Zaza. I just tested continuity from TP4 to U9-71, and it is GOOD.

#9 2 years ago

Now a scope would come handy to see if there is actual a 100/120 Hz signal.

Another continuity test than : )

With machine'OFF' and J101 connected.
On Powerdriverboard, measure continuity between anode D38 and anode D3.
Should be close to ZERO Ohm.

ZC 2.jpg

#10 2 years ago

Just checked. It is 00.8/00.7

I love uour diagrams as always.
Thank you for your continued help.

#11 2 years ago

You're welcome !

00.8 means that both diodes are connected to transformer so that is perfect.

But this is as much as we can test now without frequency tester.
If you have a PLCC extractor tool and can work ESD-safe, you could pull ASIC U9 and check pins on socket and chip.

#12 2 years ago

Thanks zaza, ill look into a frequency tester. Im still not 100% sure if they should dim during test T6 with my rom LX-5. Maybe there is nothing wrong???

I also noticed an unusual small circuit board connected to J205 on the CPU, with a red wire connected to C31. Pic attatched. Do you know if this is original, or not? Also do you know what this is? Thanks. Sparky

image (resized).jpeg

#13 2 years ago

Better pic of small circuit board.

image (resized).jpeg

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from SPARKY70:

Im still not 100% sure if they should dim during test T6 with my rom LX-5. Maybe there is nothing wrong???

I can't tell 100 % either but I would expect that it can dim.
-
I think that little board is to give an extra pulse to the coin switch input. There was something about coin settings and this way it was possible to give 1 credit for xx(?) dollarcent.

#15 2 years ago

Interesting to know about the coin pulse board. Im guessing i can remove it if it is not necessary.

I have one other unlnown.

There are 2 white wires coming from the bottom of the universal power interface assembly (A-17540). They run to the backbox, but are taped off there with electrical tape. Everything is working on my game orher than this GI thing, so im not sure what they can be. Pics Attached. Thanks

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#16 2 years ago
Quoted from SPARKY70:

2 white wires coming from

Could be a wire for coin cointer that was connected to the knocker-drive in the backbox.
If it is originated from the interface box (can't see in picture) , then be careful with it as it could be high voltage.

Final thought about GI, without the ribbon cable (CPU<->PDB) the GI should stay OFF (together with all ather lamp and coils).
If the GI is still ON without the ribbon cabel installed, there is an issue on the powerdriverboard.

#17 2 years ago

Zaza, i just disconnected the ribbon cable, then powered up the game. The GI lights all stayed OFF, as you say they should.

As for the two loose white wires, they come from the bottom of the power interface and end at the bottom of the backbox near the DMD display. I noticed that the BROWN DMD wire looks like it may have been spliced into at one time, and then "unspliced" leaving 2 inches of white wire.
Any idea why someone might need to do this? Other than that. All other wiring seems factory.

Ive never looked into a power interface box, but ill do so carefully and unplugged, to see exactly where they originate. Thanks

image (resized).jpeg

#18 2 years ago

FTR, even if the game's software doesn't take advantage take of GI dimming, test mode should still dim them, yeah.

#19 2 years ago

Hi coyote, thats exactly what im thinking. I would imagine that it SHOULD dim in test mode no matter what.
There is a slight possibility, that the rom version i have could have a mistake.
Id hate to keep looking for a problem that may not exist. It would be interesting to see if i got a newer rom, and the GI lights suddenly started to dim in the test. I wish somebody with ROM LX-5 could confirm either way. Hopefully somebody with it will come across this post. Till then, ill keep looking into it. Thanks. Sparky

#20 2 years ago
Quoted from SPARKY70:

There is a slight possibility, that the rom version i have could have a mistake.

I'm so certain that it's not the ROM, that I'm willing to put money down. The Test mode is all handled by the OS layer, which the game layer is built upon. If it affected your game, it would affect over games that used the same base OS version.

#21 2 years ago

Interesting to know. You are probably right. Im just wishful thinking about the rom, thats why i said ill keep looking into it.
Do you have any ideas other than what zaza has already gone through with me? I dont have an oscilloscope, but will ask a couple of people that may have. I read something sbout BR2, but according to zaza, after doing a test he suggested, its probably not on the driver board.

#22 2 years ago

I would follow Zaza's advice. It's very likely a zero-cross issue, honestly.

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

It's very likely a zero-cross issue

Yeah, at this moment it is best to verify this signal, maybe you can borrow a multimeter with frequency function.

Quoted from SPARKY70:

I read something sbout BR2

The test suggested in post #9 is to confirm that the diodes 38 and 3 are connected to the AC supply from transformer.
When Br.2 is replaced, the trace to the diodes can easily be damaged. But it still doesn't confirm that there is a ZC signal all the way to U9-71 on CPU board.

#24 2 years ago

Hi zaza, if i understand correctly, you are saying i dont need an actual oscilloscope, but can use a multimeter with a frequency function instead. I have two different low end multimeters. I dont believe they have a frequency function, but i posted pics of both, incase your keen eye would be able to spot the frequency ability. Orherwise i will try to pick ip a meter with the frequency function. Thanks

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#25 2 years ago
Quoted from SPARKY70:

you are saying i dont need an actual oscilloscope,

that's correct.
I don't see a Frequency function on your multimeters

I use a Metex M-4650 for this kind of frequencies. Very happy with this one
Metex M-4650.jpg

#26 2 years ago

Thanks. I will see if i can get a hold of one. I believe it must have the HZ setting.

If there is a problem with the zerocrossing, what are the possibilities that could be wrong? Thanks

#27 2 years ago

Could be a bad LM339 (U6) on the powerdriverboard.
Or socket of U9 lost contact with the chip. Did you push on the ASIC chip U9 ? (machine OFF)

#28 2 years ago

Yes i pressed on U9, but i just pressed on it a few more times just in case, but no difference. I gave a quick visual inspection to U6, nothing visual to report. I will look for a Hz meter to further test.

#29 2 years ago

You have some corrosion on your battery board. Can you please remove it and take a picture of the MPU behind this battery board with the wiring connected at the bottom as well? Sometimes battery corrosion gets behind and below the battery board.
***Likely not anything related to what zaza is helping with at this time.**
2017-10-01 18_07_44-WPC-S GI question Pinside Forum - Internet Explorer (resized).png

#30 2 years ago

Hi maniac, you are correct about the battery terminal corrosion.
Funny thing is, as you were writing that post, i had taken the battery board off, and looked at it. It was only on the 2 terminal ends, and everything else was clean. I cleaned it up as good as possible, installed new batteries, and mounted the board off to the side.
I like that the WPCS boards have the seperate battery board. Thanks.
Also, see my next post.

#31 2 years ago

Hi zaza, i have some interesting news about the GI.
I have been going over this game thoroughly, and shopping it all out. I discovered the GI issue while running through all the tests. I got the game all back together, and playing yesterday, but noticed that it was resetting when coils would fire, during multiball etc. Typical watchdog circuit resets.

I thought it may have been low voltage from my garage outlet, so i gave it a test, and it was 122 volts. I then went to the pinwiki, to go down the line of possibilities. I checked the convenience outlet, and it was good with game on and off. I reseated the transformer connections, but was still getting resets.
I then reseated J101, and then the resets diminished significantly. Out of curiosity, i checked on the GI DIMMING, and now the GI dim during the test as they should.

So GI problem solved??

Thank you so much again for your time and guidance on this issue. Ive learned some new things along the way. I will now keep my eyes out for a new meter with an HZ setting.

I also read up a little on the coin doubler board. You are correct, the board allows the software to give a credit with 1 coin drop instead if 2. From what i read, williams made the software require a minimum of 2 coin drops, and this board bipasses that issue making 1 coin act as 2.
My game had been set to FREE PLAY since i obtained it. I turned off free pay to see how the doubler works, then found out i have one more issue to fix.
My left coin slot is inoperable. Right coin slot works fine. I tested the coin switch, and it is good. Im going to have to start checking further into this left coin circuit now. Thanks. Sparky

#32 2 years ago
Quoted from SPARKY70:

I then reseated J101, and then the resets diminished significantly. Out of curiosity, i checked on the GI DIMMING, and now the GI dim during the test as they should.

What we know now for sure is that it is not a software (LX-5) issue, but more likely some bad connection.

Quoted from SPARKY70:

My left coin slot is inoperable

What PinballManiac40 noted about leaking batteries could have caused this. The most right pin on J205 is for left coin input.

#33 2 years ago
Quoted from zaza:

What PinballManiac40 noted about leaking batteries could have caused this. The most right pin on J205 is for left coin input.

Hi SPARKY70, Here is picture of a J205 connector in a T2 which did have battery corrosion on the original MPU. Quite surprising to note that the batteries are in the middle of the board, but yet, the fumes traveled passed quite a few parts and found its way to 2 connectors. This is the reason I was asking for a picture of the MPU and wiring with the battery holder off. It is not always noticeable. Mind if we take a peek at a picture? WPC wiring with battery corrosion (resized).png

#34 2 years ago

Hi guys, had trouble posting today.
You're right zaza, Definately not rom related.

Turns out the left coin switch is now wotking after it was shut down last night, and powered up today. I didnt even get a chance to try anything. I was wondering if the wire could be bad from the switch to the coin board. I opened and closed the door numerous times without disruption. I will get a pic up of J205 tomorrow. Going to sleep now. Thanks for your continued help!! Sparky

#35 2 years ago

Hi maniac here are the pics of j205. On my board 205 is the bottom connection. There is a coin doubler board attatched to my 205. It may be faulty, so i bypassed it just incase. All connections look clean to me. Pics attatched. Thanks. Sparky

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#36 2 years ago

Hi zaza, i opened up the power interface board, to see where the 2 white wires went. They are connected to a green thing that i believe is not factory installed. There are also 3 thin wires grey, black and white that are spliced into my factory harness near the tilt bob. They connect to orange/white
Grey/yellow
Black
And as mentioned earlier, i believe the two thicker white wires were spliced into the BROWN DMD wire.
Do you know what this stuff is all about? I assume that i can safely remove all this.
The rest of the power interface seems normal inside.
I am under the impression that this game was once outside the USA, since it has an X rom, and interface board sticker says 5 amp fuse. I am in the USA.
Pics attatched. Thanks sparky

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#37 2 years ago

I've seen this a couple of times passing by on pinside

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/very-interesting-find-in-my-dirty-harry-dh
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/tech-roadshow-delayed-boot-up

I don't know exactly how it is wired and how it works but I would remove it. Always work on this powerbox with mains powercord unplugged !

Quoted from SPARKY70:

They connect to
orange/white
Grey/yellow
Black
...
two thicker white wires were spliced into the BROWN DMD wire.

that would be (if original colors are used)
Orn/Wht = Electronic coin acceptor enable
Gry/Yel = 12V unreg.
Black = 0V / GND
Brown dmd = +62V

----
About the left coin input switch, you can test it quite simple.
After you go into switch-test T.1 , unplug J205 and attach a wire from GND to J205-1. It should trigger Left coin.
J205-1.jpg

#38 2 years ago

Thanks for the info and link zaza. The other guy had the same exact green thing in their interface box.
From what i could figure out, it delays the DMD so it dosent display during boot up.
Supposedly there were problems with vendors of exported games. I believe this was why they created the wpc-"S" in the first place.

When the game boots up, the DMD would display a code to identify the game or vendor. The green box actually has dip switches that control the delay time. From 1 second to about 10 minutes.

It seems to be powered by the 3 small wires.
The BROWN DMD wire was cut, and then extended by the white wire that runs through the green box timer, then back to light the DMD with the other white wire after the set time.

Mine was set to 1 minute, but was already bypassed when i obtained my game, so the DMD turned on normally.

I ended up removing the whole thing.

My coin switches seem to be working fine now. The coin doubler may have an intermittant problem, so i disconnected it.

All i have left to figure out now is the occasional watchdog resets. It seems to reset the most when first powered up, then works fine even through most multiballs, but sometimes will still reset during multiball. Thanks. Sparky

#39 2 years ago

Hi zaza, just wanted to send a personal thank you to you for your time and effort with my "WPC-S GI question".

Your thoughful suggestions, terrific schematics and advice to get a meter with Hz setting have helped me learn a few new things.

Also for your pointing me in the right direction with the coin doubler board, and green timer box used to delay power to the DMD.

You really seem to know the WPC system very well, and have inspired me to seek more information on how these boards are laid out to make understanding them less confusing.

Thank you again. SPARKY

#40 2 years ago

zaza is a pinside treasure.

#41 2 years ago

Glad to help you Sparky70 and nice to see that you understand the WPC-system better due to the pictures and explanations.
Once you are full into the WPC-system, you can answer most questions on the forum so that I can retire here

thank you RonaldRayGun

#42 2 years ago

Hopefully ill know enough for you to retire someday........

10 months later
#43 1 year ago
Quoted from zaza:

Now a scope would come handy to see if there is actual a 100/120 Hz signal.
Another continuity test than : )
With machine'OFF' and J101 connected.
On Powerdriverboard, measure continuity between anode D38 and anode D3.
Should be close to ZERO Ohm.
[quoted image]

I'm having the same problem on my TZ, and I'm very electronically incompetent.

When you say "measure continuity between anode D38 and anode D3" do you mean - with a DMM - to set it to the mode that buzzes if there is a circuit (?) and to put the red or black probe on the first red dot in this image (D3) and the other probe on the other red dot (D38) ?

Is that right? I don't put the probes on either side of the diode?

With this test is a buzz good? Or should I use the resistance setting instead?

Also regards testing ZC, and the other image in the thread further down - again is this done with the DMM set to the buzzing mode?

Sorry for the dumb questions - removing the power board to send off to someone to repair is a last resort for me, and I can't seem to find anyone who will come out with an oscilloscope to diagnose it properly.

#44 1 year ago
Quoted from Durzel:

When you say "measure continuity between anode D38 and anode D3" do you mean - with a DMM - to set it to the mode that buzzes if there is a circuit (?)

That is correct. With the machine 'OFF' and J101 connected, you can measure continuity to be sure that the traces from the diodes to the connector J101 and through the transformer are not interrupted in any kind of way.
It does not matter where to put the RED or BLACK probe on the red dots as shown in post #9. The multimeter should buzz when path is OK. When multimeter is set to resistance, it will show someting like 1 ohm.

Quoted from Durzel:

Also regards testing ZC, and the other image in the thread further down - again is this done with the DMM set to the buzzing mode?

The ZC signal itself can be measured with a multimeter (if it has a freqency function) or with an oscilloscope. In the UK it will read 100 Hz.

#45 1 year ago
Quoted from zaza:

The ZC signal itself can be measured with a multimeter (if it has a freqency function) or with an oscilloscope. In the UK it will read 100 Hz.

In the US it will read 120HZ. Just cause I like posting pictures...

Measured with a meter at TP4, setting DC Hz.
ZC2 (resized).JPG

With a scope...preferred
Zero Cross (resized).png

#46 1 year ago

Thanks both.

Presumably the ZC test pictured there is one probe on the TP4 point and the other probe on the ASIC pin highlighted in zaza's image further up?

My DMM doesn't have frequency so will need to look at maybe getting another.

#47 1 year ago
Quoted from Durzel:

Presumably the ZC test pictured there is one probe on the TP4 point and the other probe on the ASIC pin highlighted in zaza's image further up?

I should have put my shoplight on that With the meter, one lead is on TP4, the other is on the GND TP.

#48 1 year ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

I should have put my shoplight on that With the meter, one lead is on TP4, the other is on the GND TP.

Does that achieve the same result as zaza's suggestion in this post - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wpc-s-gi-question#post-3991479 ?

Where is GND TP?

#49 1 year ago
Quoted from Durzel:

Does that achieve the same result as zaza's suggestion in this post - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wpc-s-gi-question#post-3991479 ?

Where is GND TP?

Sorry, I meant to attach a picture...This is where you would connect a muti-meter to measure frequency.
pasted_image (resized).png

#50 1 year ago
Quoted from Durzel:

Does that achieve the same result as zaza's suggestion in this post - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wpc-s-gi-question#post-3991479 ?

To do a resistance check, you will need to measure between the ASIC on the CPU board, and TP on the Power driver just like in Zazas image, you will likely need to have a pair of needle point leads to make this check. amazon.com link »

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