(Topic ID: 28568)

WPC reset my voltage is 5.5v **FIXED**

By maddog14

11 years ago


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  • 41 posts
  • 19 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by lyonsden
  • Topic is favorited by 18 Pinsiders

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#1 11 years ago

I got this machine non working. My Addams Family resets when the flippers are used. I tested the 5 volt and it measures 5.5v and does not drop. It would not boot till i replaced the BR2 and the C5.

the led 4 is not lit and the led 3 is lit and flashes

Can the high voltage cause resets too, should I just replace the Q1?

#2 11 years ago

Go to the reset section of pinwiki and follow the step by step troubleshooting.

Sean

#3 11 years ago

I do appreciate the reply scasey. Unfortunately that does not answer my question.

I have tested the board in two other machines with same result. I have tested everything.

I have high voltage, not low voltage. All of the online repair manuals discuss low voltage.

I have a working TAF right next to my non working TAF and checked measurements side by side.

I have 5.5v and the game resets with flipper use. If it was reading low, no brainer. That is what has me stumped.

Do you personally have any insight into this? or can you personally answer " will higher voltage cause my game to reset?" If yes, Then I am am replacing my Q1 ( and C4 for the heck of it)

#4 11 years ago

It is possible that the 5v being that high could cause issues. I would look at Q1.

#5 11 years ago

I have had driver boards that test fine from a voltage perspective but still reset. In my experience it is usually the regulator, but you can't rule out the other usual suspects. You really need to go through everything, check any prior rework, etc.

I'm no pro on the Dallas reset chip, but the datasheet says it can operate at up to 7v. The datasheet doesn't mention it resetting on high voltage, just low voltage. Maybe someone else can shed some light on this.

#6 11 years ago

Replace the diodes on your flipper coils, all of them. I've seen where open diodes have tested out good with a meter yet caused resets when the flippers are fired. The technical reason for bad diodes causing resets is an open diode will not dissipate the residual voltage when the magnetic field is re-inducted through the coil when power is removed from it. The result is a huge voltage at the fliptronics transistor for that coil. When the transistor fires again that voltage causes a huge current spike through the system and that's enough to affect other circuits, including the 5v logic. Also, if the transistors can't handle the excessive voltage/current spike it will quickly kill your fliptronics board as well.

#7 11 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

Replace the diodes on your flipper coils, all of them. I've seen where open diodes have tested out good with a meter yet caused resets when the flippers are fired. The technical reason for bad diodes causing resets is an open diode will not dissipate the residual voltage when the magnetic field is re-inducted through the coil when power is removed from it. The result is a huge voltage at the fliptronics transistor for that coil. When the transistor fires again that voltage causes a huge current spike through the system and that's enough to affect other circuits, including the 5v logic.

Which Is very logical, But THe driver board does the same thing in two other machines and a good driver board in this game does fine with no issues.

#8 11 years ago

Oh sorry, I missed that detail. Like what was mentioned, it's probably a voltage regulator somewhere.

#9 11 years ago

How are you testing your voltage? Most dmm are not fast enough to show a momentary voltage drop from say a 40 ms 70v burst to the flipper coils. Unless you have an oscilloscope, your measurement isn't useful. The fact that swapping the board changes the behavior indicates the issue is one the board. Very good. The 5.5v will not cause the reset. Continue debugging your power board or just sure a cheap ps to your CPU.

#10 11 years ago

Something is going on here above the main issue. 5.5v is unheard of is it not? I've never come across a machine reading even up to 5.1v.

I think you may have a board issue above the typical reset fixes.

#11 11 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

How are you testing your voltage? Most dmm are not fast enough to show a momentary voltage drop from say a 40 ms 70v burst to the flipper coils. Unless you have an oscilloscope, your measurement isn't useful. The fact that swapping the board changes the behavior indicates the issue is one the board. Very good. The 5.5v will not cause the reset. Continue debugging your power board or just sure a cheap ps to your CPU.

Beat me to it...Unless you're scoping the 5V signal, you're not going to see a drop from firing the flippers. And 5.5V isn't going to cause a reset...If that were the case, it would be resetting all the time with no load. But your game is resetting when a load hits the power supply, which means your 5V signal is dropping.

#12 11 years ago

Have any "hacks" been added to the board to bring that voltage up that high?
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#13 11 years ago

The board has had a few questionable repairs. Most I have fixed. Or the repairs appeared to be fine.
I did replace and jumper the C5 and the BR2... It is possible that I got a bad Cap or bridge rectifier. Time to desolder and check.

#14 11 years ago

I still think something not typical is happening here. It *sounds* like someone did a funky mod to really overcompensate for a low 5v, and tied into something else and brought it up too much. If something screwy like this is happening, anything could be possible, depending.

#15 11 years ago

Well, I might have a bad chip(s). When I have more time to test I will. My voltage past the resistor to the #4 LED is still 5.5-5.7 volts. It should be 1.5 volts. I tested another resistor that feeds off of the 5.7 volts and on the other side of the resistor is was reading 5.7 volts.... and now my lights dont work nor any solenoids, but flippers still work and dmd still works. The right flippers work fine the left lower flipper now sticks open and wont release.

I probably have a bad chip too that might be bleeding voltage, and that may be adding to my 5 volts raising it... or still or bad Q1. The Q2 had been replaced, and hacked, but seemed to be fine. I will have to look at schematics and see what the Q2 effects. The U1 and U 6 had been socketed. I still need to test those. I do believe my U3 tested different than the other chips.... and that one does feed into one of the resistors that I tested that had 5.7 volts on both sides..

Now I am getting into this more I am discovering more things that the OP messed up on it. LOL Lucky me

#16 11 years ago

This is totally not my bailiwick but I've been watching Clay's TOPs videos lately.

He was describing the LM339 puts out variable voltages and can be tuned up past 5V. For this particular issue, he had a game that would keep resetting even after he did the normal 'reset' techniques; voltage was low. I can't find his exact commentary, but something about adding a capacitor to one of the leads will tell the device to 'up' the voltage out. He pushed the voltage past 5V and solved the issue. Judging from your comments, there's not weird hacky things left, so I'm just wondering if the LM339 is bad, thus not regulating voltage properly.

My 2¢.
faz

#17 11 years ago

Replace the board man. Electronics board from 1992, previous repairs...stop playing games with it and wasting valuable time. Rottendog has similar board, no hacks, no 20 year old traces, caps, etc.

Most other industries would of just thrown the board out and bought a new one if available. I have successfully repaired Power driver boards myself, some ok, some not. The questionable one's always eventually start to get 'finicky' later. Makes the pin no fun if you and guests are not able to play...reliability!

Fiddling with electronics is awesome fun, I get it. But fiddling with these boards is not always worth it OR cost effective.

#18 11 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

Replace the board man. Electronics board from 1992, previous repairs...stop playing games with it and wasting valuable time. Rottendog has similar board, no hacks, no 20 year old traces, caps, etc.
Most other industries would of just thrown the board out and bought a new one if available. I have successfully repaired Power driver boards myself, some ok, some not. The questionable one's always eventually start to get 'finicky' later. Makes the pin no fun if you and guests are not able to play...reliability!
Fiddling with electronics is awesome fun, I get it. But fiddling with these boards is not always worth it OR cost effective.

Devils advocate...

Do your homework and read up on 'aftermarket' boards by various makers.

I'm not going to argue that aftermarket boards have saved plenty of games, because they have - but there are a lot of documented situations where a particular board that was 'universal' by the original MFG is now no longer universal in the aftermarket, working great in some games, but not others. Some of the aftermarket boards are better than others!

Get a quote from Borygard, Chris Hibler, or Clive for rebuilding your original board, or exchanging it for a rebuilt original. You may be very surprised by their response - they have the experience to know what to look for, what to look at, and how to test, diagnose and repair it. Both the typical problems that pop up in the various repair guides online, and the not so typical problems that aren't documented in those repair guides.

Or, get your aftermarket board, and send the original off for repair, so if the aftermarket board doesn't work in your game correctly, you've got an original board to fall back on

#19 11 years ago
Quoted from pinball_faz:

This is totally not my bailiwick but I've been watching Clay's TOPs videos lately.
He was describing the LM339 puts out variable voltages and can be tuned up past 5V. For this particular issue, he had a game that would keep resetting even after he did the normal 'reset' techniques; voltage was low. I can't find his exact commentary, but something about adding a capacitor to one of the leads will tell the device to 'up' the voltage out. He pushed the voltage past 5V and solved the issue. Judging from your comments, there's not weird hacky things left, so I'm just wondering if the LM339 is bad, thus not regulating voltage properly.
My 2¢.
faz

You are thinking of the LM323K, the 5v voltage regulator on the driver board.

That is correct, it's adjustable.

There is a documented 'fix' (some might say hack) that involves separating the case of the LM323 from ground, and using a resistor between the case and ground to 'bump' the +5 supply slightly.

It works well, I've done it on a few games. It's a last effort on some boards, after trying everything else.

Bridges and caps don't fail as often as people would claim You get a lot out of reflowing solder joints, running jumper wires where previous repairs have damaged traces, etc.

Going through the proper troubleshooting steps that should be performed before you even plug in your soldering iron will fix a LOT of reset problems. This one IS an oddball, with the +5 being that high, I'd be interested in knowing the fix of the problem!

#20 11 years ago

I'm thinking there is a resistor somewhere jumping into the 5v to bump it up.

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#21 11 years ago

LM339... LM323K... whatever it takes

Thanks for clarifying.
faz

#22 11 years ago
Quoted from johnwartjr:

Devils advocate...
Do your homework and read up on 'aftermarket' boards by various makers.
I'm not going to argue that aftermarket boards have saved plenty of games, because they have - but there are a lot of documented situations where a particular board that was 'universal' by the original MFG is now no longer universal in the aftermarket, working great in some games, but not others. Some of the aftermarket boards are better than others!
Get a quote from Borygard, Chris Hibler, or Clive for rebuilding your original board, or exchanging it for a rebuilt original. You may be very surprised by their response - they have the experience to know what to look for, what to look at, and how to test, diagnose and repair it. Both the typical problems that pop up in the various repair guides online, and the not so typical problems that aren't documented in those repair guides.
Or, get your aftermarket board, and send the original off for repair, so if the aftermarket board doesn't work in your game correctly, you've got an original board to fall back on

Well said. I have also gone that route. Clive is a Magician with older boards.

I have pursued all avenues of board repairs. Most have worked out well; I agree with John's assessment. Speak with the pro's before spending a week ripping your hair out of your head and making a board unrepairable or worse yet, unreliable in the future.

#23 11 years ago
Quoted from Atomicboy:

I'm thinking there is a resistor somewhere jumping into the 5v to bump it up.

Me too. I can't see how the voltage would ever get to that level without either a failing LM323K regulator or the "resistor hack".
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#24 11 years ago

Don't forget to reseat that z-connectorin the back box just to eliminate all suspects. I've shotgun replaced a bunch of stuff on driver boards only to find later it was the z-connector.

#25 11 years ago
Quoted from PinballCharlie:

Don't forget to reseat that z-connector in the back box just to eliminate all suspects. I've shotgun replaced a bunch of stuff on driver boards only to find later it was the z-connector.

Yes...step 6 in the PinWiki...
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#26 11 years ago
Quoted from PinballCharlie:

Don't forget to reseat that z-connectorin the back box just to eliminate all suspects. I've shotgun replaced a bunch of stuff on driver boards only to find later it was the z-connector.

Always a problematic connector, but there is still an underlying issue here that I think should be addressed first before attempting any common reset fixes. All high and low 5v ranges should be only within tenths to hundredths of a 5.00, in fact, in my experience, I can’t even say I’ve seen or heard of a 5v over 5.15v or so. Even on systems such as Whitestar where you can adjust a 5v pot, it will only get you maybe a tenth of a volt above the 5v max.

When I see something very oddball and suspect such as this, I throw the current surface issue out for the time being, and try to get to the root of the more unusual problem, as I’m guessing this could be stressing or causing all kinds of other issues elsewhere to in turn cause a reset. You never know, maybe it could come down to a bad bridge or something typical, but I would trace that 5v back until you can determine what is bringing it up that high first.

Maybe post some photos of the board and the hacks you noted, if you have it out. I’m quite interested in what is happening here. I wonder if someone ties some desperate hacks, couldn’t get it to work, and just ditched the project.

#27 11 years ago
Quoted from maddog14:

My voltage past the resistor to the #4 LED is still 5.5-5.7 volts. It should be 1.5 volts. I tested another resistor that feeds off of the 5.7 volts and on the other side of the resistor is was reading 5.7 volts....

Reading this it sounds as if you're saying that you're not getting voltage drops across some of your resistors. Reading the same voltage on both sides of a resistor is generally an indicator that there's no path to ground. If this is the case, the boards behavior would be pretty unpredictable. I'm not familiar with the layout of these boards. Are there any weak points in the ground plane where a section could separate and float?

#28 11 years ago
Quoted from johnwartjr:

There is a documented 'fix' (some might say hack) that involves separating the case of the LM323 from ground, and using a resistor between the case and ground to 'bump' the +5 supply slightly.
It works well, I've done it on a few games. It's a last effort on some boards, after trying everything else.

Since this changes the design of the circuit, I agree that it's a hack rather than a fix. Above I questioned whether parts of the board may be missing a path to ground. If someone used this hack and didn't solder properly, a cold joint might explain these problems. If the resistance of the added resistor was too high, you might also see problems like this due to limited current.

#29 11 years ago

I had the same thing happen to my road show. I purchased it with a reset issue. After doing all the regular reset fixes the Z connector was part of the problem. Also if you are replacing bridges& caps replace C4 as well.

Quoted from PinballCharlie:

Don't forget to reseat that z-connectorin the back box just to eliminate all suspects. I've shotgun replaced a bunch of stuff on driver boards only to find later it was the z-connector.

#30 11 years ago
Quoted from cal50:

I had the same thing happen to my Road Show.

You had a voltage of 5.5v??

#31 11 years ago
Quoted from Atomicboy:

You had a voltage of 5.5v??

Sorry, no.
The reset issue, my bad for not being clear on that.

#32 11 years ago
Quoted from rancegt:

Since this changes the design of the circuit, I agree that it's a hack rather than a fix. Above I questioned whether parts of the board may be missing a path to ground. If someone used this hack and didn't solder properly, a cold joint might explain these problems. If the resistance of the added resistor was too high, you might also see problems like this due to limited current.

With WPC-95, WMS caught their error, and designed a resistor into the circuit. I would also call it a hack on WPC-89/WPC-S games. But, sometimes it's what it's taken to fix a game, too.

#33 11 years ago

ok, it appears that the voltage regulator was bad. After replacing at the Q1, it 100% does not restart now.

So, it can be said that higher voltage can cause resets. I am safely aT 5.05 volts now.

It also appears that my led is fried. So I need to replace that if I want an led at led4.

Now on to the other issues. LOL

#34 11 years ago

This original linear power supply circuit used in most pinball machines was designed by Bally in 1976. It's the same circuit that pretty much everyone used in their linear power supply through the 1990s. Note Bally added a resistor (r50) in this circuit to slightly increase the output of the LM323 voltage regulator. It's how the LM323 works - it is an adjustable voltage regulator, as shown on the LM323 data sheet. For some reason Williams never implement the adjustment resistor in any of their power supply designs (until WPC95, as Jwart stated.)

Note if you check the +5 volts with a DMM on any 1977-1985 Bally -17/-35 games, the +5 volts usually measures 5.05 to 5.25 volts. This is because of this r50 resistor. Compare this to the +5 volt circuit on 1977-1985 Williams system3 to system7, and you'll see 4.85 to 5.05 volts (the average is around 4.93 in my experience.) So the lack of this resistor in Williams' power supply circuits gives a slightly lower +5 volt output from the LM323.

So does this matter? Well on Williams system3 to system11, no, it really does not matter, the CPU will usually run fine at 4.85 volts. But with Williams WPC, they implemented a Dallas reset circuit into their CPU board. This is where problems happen. The Dallas circuit monitors the +5 volts, and if it see it dip below 4.8, the Dallas chip forces a CPU reset (game reboots.)

So why the dip in power? Well when you pulse the 50 volt coils using the flippers, this puts a lot of strain on the transformer. Unfortunately, this causes ALL the voltages to dip slightly. (You can see this on a normal game when the General Illumination lights dims slightly with an intial flipper "flip.") When this happens to the unregulated 12 volt AC line, on a normal game, the filter capacitor and voltage regulator makes up the difference, and keeps the +5 volts DC steady. But add time and age to the mix, things get old and don't work as well, and this can cause the +5 volts to dip too much, and the Dallas chip forces the CPU board to reset.

So, what's the fix? Well in a perfect world, replacing the +5/12 volt filter cap (C5 and C4 on WPC) should fix the problem. Unfortunately it doesn't always work. (There's other factors in the equation, which I won't go into at this point.)

The other issue is the LM323 itself. These are not perfect devices. That is, if you take ten brand new LM323 voltage regulators, put them in the same circuit, you won't always get 5.00 volts as the output. The spec sheet on them shows a variance of 4.8 to 5.2 volts (if i remember correctly.) Because of this, Bally implemented the r50 resistor. In case they had a bad batch of LM323 regulators, using the r50 resistor always ensured Bally got 5.00 to 5.25 volts. Bally err'ed on the side of "a little higher is better than a little lower." Williams unfortunately didn't do this, which is fine on system3 to system11 games. But when put in conjunction with the WPC Dallas reset chip, you sometimes get WPC game resets when using the flippers. (Especially on games with more than two flippers like say Twilight Zone, which strains the transformer more.)

So what's the solution? Always replace the original C4/C5 filter caps. You can also buy a new LM323 and hope for the best. Remember though, you could be replacing the original LM323 with a 4.95 volt "native" output with a new LM323 that only outputs 4.90 volts! (So a new LM323 isn't always the answer.) Unfortunately, add to this that LM323's aren't cheap, and they are now obsolete (meaning there's a limited supply on this earth.) Because of this, I feel that implementing an R50 style resistor into the WPC linear power supply circuit is a good fix for the problem. It will bump the LM323's output slightly higher, preventing the Dallas reset circuit from overtaking a game and causing endless resets with flipper action. Sometimes it's just the solution needed to fix a game without replacing a long list of (maybe obsolete) parts.

#35 11 years ago
Quoted from maddog14:

ok, it appears that the voltage regulator was bad. After replacing at the Q1, it 100% does not restart now.
So, it can be said that higher voltage can cause resets. I am safely aT 5.05 volts now.
It also appears that my led is fried. So I need to replace that if I want an led at led4.
Now on to the other issues. LOL

I wouldn't say that at all....Just as Clay described, the reset circuit operates on dips, not too high. And your game didn't reset until you flipped the flippers which causes a drop in voltage. No, you likely had a flakey regulator where the initial symptom was high voltage but it also probably dropped low when the flippers were flipped. So, it's not accurate to say that high voltage caused your resets. It's accurate to say that a failing voltage regulator did.

#36 11 years ago

Came here to say what robertmee stated. The high voltage wasn't the problem, the regulator was bad and flaky. I've seen this a few times with voltages being fine when measured on a meter with no load, but the game still resets. I really need to get an oscilloscope so I can see these things happening. Another excuse for buying more tools.

1 month later
#37 11 years ago

There are several threads mentioning a resistor hack that will bring the voltage to 5.0. I have 2 machines, a TZ and a Getaway. Can you give the value of the reststor and perhaps instructions? Both are right at 4.8. I have replaced the related bridges and caps and regulator. no matter what i do, cant get above 4.8. The TZ will reset EVERYTIME I press both flippers at the same time. Never one at a time. The Getaway resets everytime (and only) when it goes into multiball. Wall voltage is 120-122. I have also set the program setting to low voltage just to be sure.

I did scope the output and there IS a drop in the voltage when the flippers are activated. its only about 6ms, but does briefly drop to 4.6 and as low as 4.5 one time. I dont know what else to do other than trying this hack. All plugs have been replaced with new ones (sop). help?

greghig

#38 11 years ago
Quoted from greghig:

There are several threads mentioning a resistor hack that will bring the voltage to 5.0. I have 2 machines, a TZ and a Getaway. Can you give the value of the reststor and perhaps instructions? Both are right at 4.8. I have replaced the related bridges and caps and regulator. no matter what i do, cant get above 4.8. The TZ will reset EVERYTIME I press both flippers at the same time. Never one at a time. The Getaway resets everytime (and only) when it goes into multiball. Wall voltage is 120-122. I have also set the program setting to low voltage just to be sure.
I did scope the output and there IS a drop in the voltage when the flippers are activated. its only about 6ms, but does briefly drop to 4.6 and as low as 4.5 one time. I dont know what else to do other than trying this hack. All plugs have been replaced with new ones (sop). help?
greghig

This "last resort" fix is documented in the PinWiki Williams | WPC section, including pics.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
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#39 11 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

This "last resort" fix is documented in the PinWiki Williams | WPC section, including pics.

WMS poor design decision, and should have had a bigger safety margin on the reset voltage, like Bally. IMO this should be further up the list, and not called a 'hack' or a last resort. A hack is drilling a hole in the cab, and running a string to the ball launch coil to operate in manually, because it is broken.

Quoted from cfh:

So does this matter? Well on Williams system3 to system11, no, it really does not matter,

This is a great post. Why is the reset more forgiving on earlier models? Was it a discrete components reset circuit that allowed the voltage to dip lower before resetting?

4 years later
#40 6 years ago

Nowadays you can also try voltage regulator chip.
http://www.ezsbc.com/index.php/products/psu7.html#.WWtxiITyjIU
lmk1_compare.jpglmk1_compare.jpg

or

cheaper chinese voltage regulator board.
ebay.com link: DC DC Adjustable Buk Converter Voltage Step Down Regulator Module 3 3v 5v 12v
s-l500.jpgs-l500.jpg

#41 6 years ago

I use the regulators from EZSBC and replace the +5V and +12V on every WPC game I have, regardless. They are rock solid, drop in replacement, and produce no heat. Daniel, who runs EZSBC, is also an excellent, standup guy. I once ordered 6 of the wrong model, didn't notice for 6 months, and when I asked if I could return them (in the comments of a new order), he agreed and sent along the replacements BEFORE I returned the ones I had mistakenly ordered.

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