(Topic ID: 326243)

WPC no 12v

By dinot

8 days ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 37 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 days ago by dinot
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

20221021_103145 (resized).jpg
JD-after1 (resized).jpg
JD-before (resized).jpg
board3 (resized).jpg
Board1 (resized).jpg
Board (resized).jpg
pasted_image (resized).png
20221123_131811 (resized).jpg
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png

#1 8 days ago

Hey folks, just picked up a T2 today. Game was in a local dealers showroom for a while and it was working. Haven't had a Bally/Williams in years. After I brought it home, everything was still working fine. Anyways, I was doing some minor work such as swapping out some LEDs I had on hand and replacing rubber.

After having the playfield up to replace the buttons (start and flipper buttons). I put the PF down and start to play and the cannon doesn't work. I also found that flashers don't work.

So I am guessing that no 12v is what is causing this.

I tested all switches and solenoids and they are all good.

The fuses look (I only checked them visually) good. I zeroed in on F116 as that is secondary 12v. That looks good. The LEDs on the power driver board are all as they should be. (All on except for LED3) LED 7 is specifically 12v for motors/relays and it is on.

Any thoughts?

#2 8 days ago

Meter in hand, check 20 volt test point, and pull fuses and check with a meter.

LTG : )

#3 8 days ago
Quoted from LTG:

Meter in hand, check 20 volt test point, and pull fuses and check with a meter.
LTG : )

Thanks Lloyd. Unfortunately, I've forgotten more about WPC than I remember. Where is the 20v test point? Also, if a fuse were bad, would the LED on the driver board still light?

And to check fuses, am I just checking continuity?

Thank you!

#4 8 days ago
Quoted from dinot:

Where is the 20v test point?

Look at the driver board. They are marked. TP and a number then voltage like 5, 50, 12, 20.

Quoted from dinot:

Also, if a fuse were bad, would the LED on the driver board still light?

If partially blown yes. Enough to light a LED but not fire anything else.

Quoted from dinot:

And to check fuses, am I just checking continuity?

Yes.

LTG : )

#6 8 days ago

In progress. All test points test fine EXCEPT.....20V. I am pulling fuses now to test.

#7 8 days ago

Tested all fuses and they are all good. I was so bummed. F111 (flashers) was testing flaky (had to get it just right to get continuity) and I replaced it, but still no flashers.

Not sure this means anything, but I rechecked the TP and the 18v TP reads 16.3v.

20v is obviously still not showing any voltage.

#8 8 days ago
Quoted from dinot:

20v is obviously still not showing any voltage.

20 volt bridge rectifier should be checked next.

LTG : )

#9 8 days ago
Quoted from LTG:

20 volt bridge rectifier should be checked next.
LTG : )

Thanks Lloyd. Unfortunately, I don't know which BR that is and I need to read up on how to test. Thank you.

Do we think it is definitely the board? I ask because I bought this game today from a dealer. If it is the board, I am hoping that he has a spare. (He doesn't have other WPC games at the moment). If not, I might just send this out to Chris Hibler for repair (I've referred friends to him and they've all been happy) and I'll ask the dealer to split the cost. If it could be something else I can try to test those out. Just my luck, this game has been in his showroom for a while without any issues and this game has reminded me why I got out of WPC. (I own 5 Spike 2 and 1 SAM)
I used to be ok with board repairs (replaced BR, transistors, audio chips in the past), but I got out of WPC 15 years ago and don't remember squat.

Funny thing. My very first pin (over 20 years ago...STTNG, back when I didn't know how to even take the glass off) had burnt connectors. I posted for help on RGP and you were the first person to help back then as well.

#10 8 days ago

Well...I just checked Chris's website and he is at about a 90 day backlog. So if the dealer doesn't have a spare, I might be trying to repair this myself. He has a repair guy on staff as well. Sigh....oh WPC how you enjoy torturing me. (I got this as an early XMas gift for my 15 yo daughter).

#11 8 days ago
Quoted from dinot:

Well...I just checked Chris's website and he is at about a 90 day backlog. So if the dealer doesn't have a spare, I might be trying to repair this myself. He has a repair guy on staff as well. Sigh....oh WPC how you enjoy torturing me. (I got this as an early XMas gift for my 15 yo daughter).

Check with Clive at coin op cauldron. He does great Board repair as well

https://www.coinopcauldron.com/

#12 8 days ago
Quoted from dinot:

, I don't know which BR that is

Follow the traces from the test point, they'll be a bridge rectifier involved.

LTG : )

#13 8 days ago
Quoted from dinot:

Tested all fuses and they are all good. I was so bummed. F111 (flashers) was testing flaky (had to get it just right to get continuity) and I replaced it, but still no flashers.
Not sure this means anything, but I rechecked the TP and the 18v TP reads 16.3v.
20v is obviously still not showing any voltage.

Strange that TP8 18v is reading low, what A/C voltage do you have at your place and is the voltage jumper on the 9 pin transformer connector set correctly?

pasted_image (resized).png

Note that F111 20v is not just for the flashers but also used for the power for the canon motor (which is why the canon is not swinging out). Did you test the continuity on the new fuse before dropping it it?

pasted_image (resized).png

Do you have 20VAC b/n J104-4 & J104-5 (this is after F111 but before BR4 that converts it to 20V DC and TP7)

pasted_image (resized).png

#14 8 days ago

Oh, thanks for answers

#15 8 days ago
Quoted from Manny65:

Strange that TP8 18v is reading low, what A/C voltage do you have at your place and is the voltage jumper on the 9 pin transformer connector set correctly?
[quoted image]
Note that F111 20v is not just for the flashers but also used for the power for the canon motor (which is why the canon is not swinging out). Did you test the continuity on the new fuse before dropping it it?
[quoted image]
Do you have 20VAC b/n J104-4 & J104-5 (this is after F111 but before BR4 that converts it to 20V DC and TP7)
[quoted image]

Thanks Manny. I have 120VAC at my home. I don't know about the jumper you mention on the transformer connector. But the game had been playing fine for a while. (Was in this dealer's showroom for a few months and played fine at my home for a few hours)

I did test continuity on the new fuse at F111.
I don't actually have anything connected at J104. So using my rudimentary skills, I am guessing that J102-1(or2) and J102-3(or 4) should be the same thing? I pulled that connector and measured 18.04VAC between those. (White wire/red stripe)

UPDATE: I also test J102-1 and F111 figuring I should be getting 20VAC. I read 18VAC there. Also, big change from last night. LED 5 is not lit this morning. It was when I initially checked last night. LED5 is for 20V.

Thank you

#16 8 days ago
Quoted from dinot:

Thanks Manny. I have 120VAC at my home. I don't know about the jumper you mention on the transformer connector. But the game had been playing fine for a while. (Was in this dealer's showroom for a few months and played fine at my home for a few hours)
I did test continuity on the new fuse at F111.
I don't actually have anything connected at J104. So using my rudimentary skills, I am guessing that J102-1(or2) and J102-3(or 4) should be the same thing? I pulled that connector and measured 18.04VAC between those. (White wire/red stripe)

UPDATE: I also test J102-1 and F111 figuring I should be getting 20VAC. I read 18VAC there. Also, big change from last night, LED5 is not lit this morning. It was when I initially checked last night. Well, LED5 is for 20V.

Thank you

#17 8 days ago

Dropped by the dealer today but he was not there. So I'll have to hook up with him on Monday.
I hate sitting around and waiting. I found this:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/black-rose-flashers-18-20#post-2604414

I tested as it showed. I get a reading on pin 1 but not pin 3. I am guessing that this means that BR4 is bad. I'd just replace it but since this is under a 30 day warranty, I'll have the dealer either repair it or suggest a fix. (He is a good guy and I've done plenty of business with him) He has a technician on staff so we'll see how it goes. I can see myself getting super impatient as I have some bridge rectifiers in my old parts storage. If I decide to swap BR4, is this the correct replacement?

Thanks,

20221123_131811 (resized).jpg

#18 8 days ago
Quoted from dinot:

Thanks Manny. I have 120VAC at my home. I don't know about the jumper you mention on the transformer connector. But the game had been playing fine for a while. (Was in this dealer's showroom for a few months and played fine at my home for a few hours)
I did test continuity on the new fuse at F111.
I don't actually have anything connected at J104. So using my rudimentary skills, I am guessing that J102-1(or2) and J102-3(or 4) should be the same thing? I pulled that connector and measured 18.04VAC between those. (White wire/red stripe)
UPDATE: I also test J102-1 and F111 figuring I should be getting 20VAC. I read 18VAC there. Also, big change from last night. LED 5 is not lit this morning. It was when I initially checked last night. LED5 is for 20V.
Thank you

Yes J104 shouldn't have anything connected but is an easy place to test with a DMM to confirm you have ~20VAC going into BR4. Given you do have AC power but aren't getting DC power at TP7 then it highlights that BR4 has failed (which you later confirmed using Zaza's test procedure).

Here is a pic of the transformer voltage jumper connector that I mentioned and how it should be jumpered for 120VAC. Note this has nothing to do with the BR4 issue but was just an observation as I expected TP8 to be a little higher (doesn't hurt to check when picking up a new pin)

pasted_image (resized).png

#19 7 days ago

So I got impatient and pulled the board to replace BR4. I found this (pic). So obviously the board had previous work and looks like solder pads may have been lost. 3 of the bridge legs are jumpered. The A/C legs are jumpered to J104 pin 4 and J102 pin 1. The negative lead is jumpered to C11 cap. As this was, this board had been working for a while.

Note: My troubleshooting skills are basic.

I tested BR4 on the back of the board and it tests fine.

I used Zaza's test again on the board and I have the same issue. J102 pins 3 and 4 do not show a value on the meter. Guessing that maybe a solder pad fell off or is otherwise compromised.

I reran Zaza's test, but instead of testing from the TP to J102 pin 3/4 I tested on J104 pin 4 and like this I get a proper reading on the meter. Which is where the one AC leg is jumpered to.

Thanks,
Board (resized).jpg

#20 7 days ago

OK....Sorry for the long posts. Based on a diagram posted earlier in the thread, I went ahead and tested continuity. I have continuity between J102-1/2 and J104-5 BUT I do not have continuity between J102-3/4 and J104-4 (Did I find my problem???)

My thought is to remove the jumper that goes from the J104-4 and run it over to the out of the fuse. So from the red arrow to the white arrow in the pic. Looks like that area (out of the fuse) has been worked on in the past.

So in the schematic view, I am thinking of moving the jumper from the red line to the green line as this board doesn't have the continuity that it should have. Somewhere in the path between J104-4 and after Fuse 111, we don't have continuity.

Board1 (resized).jpg

board3 (resized).jpg
#21 7 days ago

OK...Hopefully last update.

I also replaced BR4 because, well, why not. I had the board out anyways.

I made the change I discussed above, and voila. Machine works again. Interestingly the 20v LED is not lit. But the flashers, and cannon are back in business.

THANK YOU!

#22 4 days ago
Quoted from dinot:

Machine works again. Interestingly the 20v LED is not lit.
THANK YOU!

With all the previous repairs, the reason your 20 volt LED isn't lit is because you have a broken trace somewhere from the 20 volt output at C11 or around and the LED but the traces that supply 20 volts do go out to power the rest of the game.

#23 4 days ago

With all that ugliness on the back of that board, I would suggest you get a replacement WPC board built by DumbAss here on pinside.

#24 4 days ago
Quoted from Tophervette:

With all that ugliness on the back of that board, I would suggest you get a replacement WPC board built by DumbAss here on pinside.

When I pulled this board and saw this mess, I knew I'd eventually have to replace it. I figure I'd buy a Rottendog. I'll look into DumbAss as well.

Thanks.

#25 4 days ago

It works. I personally would not change it.

#26 4 days ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

It works. I personally would not change it.

I won't replace it while it works. I think that I'll be able to get some miles out of it.

#27 4 days ago
Quoted from dinot:

I won't replace it while it works. I think that I'll be able to get some miles out of it.

A properly rebuilt original WPC driver is solid and no need to replace. Unfortunately the prior "Repair" is way too common and many people have hacked up boards. Even so that isn't bad and can totally be corrected so the board would just run.

I have a spare Rottendog board that I use for testing in a game when I rebuild the original driver board. It is a good board. At the moment it is on loan to someone local with a Judge Dredd so they can still enjoy their game while I rework his original driver board. It is about the same as your board was. The one in my Judge Dredd was much worse. Someone had literally pulled up a couple entire power traces for the bridges. Took a bit more work but it turned out great and it will run as long as any of the new replacement boards now. A lot less cost and I like keeping original boards in the game. The last picture shows the hacks on the back of the board when I started. Only a portion of what was messed up.

The MPU on my machine was wasted beyond repair so I did get one of Victors blank WPC MPU PCB's and built that as a replacement. His boards are good too.

20221021_103145 (resized).jpgJD-after1 (resized).jpgJD-before (resized).jpg

#28 4 days ago

If you cut the old bridges off, then add fresh solder to the pads, the legs pull out easily without damaging the board. The large caps are another story however lol

#29 4 days ago

I used to be big into WPC. I got out of WPC starting about 15 years ago when my kids came along and I went with all SAM as I didn't have time to dedicate to keeping them running. The SAM games weren't as fun, IMO, (except maybe Iron Man, which I still have) but wow were they bulletproof. (Never had any real problems with them). Last year I got rid of all of my SAM (except Iron Man) and went to Spike 2. I love Spike 2 as I can really get them to have fantastic sound. (I go bonkers with speakers and amps on them)

I bought this WPC because I was with my 15yo daughter at a local dealer. She played T2 and liked it so I bought it and the fond memories I had of WPC seemed to make me forget about all of the problems I used to have to address. Though my WPC95 games were more reliable than earlier WPC. Not sure I'll go back, but I'll keep this T2 for a while as she likes it.

#30 4 days ago
Quoted from amxfc3s:

If you cut the old bridges off, then add fresh solder to the pads, the legs pull out easily without damaging the board. The large caps are another story however lol

Yup. Bridges are the easiest component to replace IMO. Clip the legs, heat and pull. Caps are definitely much more difficult.

I had done enough bridges with my old machines that I still had a stash of new bridges in my old parts bin.

#31 4 days ago
Quoted from dinot:

Yup. Bridges are the easiest component to replace IMO. Clip the legs, heat and pull. Caps are definitely much more difficult.
I had done enough bridges with my old machines that I still had a stash of new bridges in my old parts bin.

Caps aren't too bad. Clip the leads flush with the board so there is less to pull through. Then add fresh solder for good heat transfer. Then use two irons to heat both at once and have a helper pull out the cap when ready.

#32 4 days ago
Quoted from dinot:

I used to be big into WPC. I got out of WPC starting about 15 years ago when my kids came along and I went with all SAM as I didn't have time to dedicate to keeping them running. The SAM games weren't as fun, IMO, (except maybe Iron Man, which I still have) but wow were they bulletproof. (Never had any real problems with them). Last year I got rid of all of my SAM (except Iron Man) and went to Spike 2. I love Spike 2 as I can really get them to have fantastic sound. (I go bonkers with speakers and amps on them)
I bought this WPC because I was with my 15yo daughter at a local dealer. She played T2 and liked it so I bought it and the fond memories I had of WPC seemed to make me forget about all of the problems I used to have to address. Though my WPC95 games were more reliable than earlier WPC. Not sure I'll go back, but I'll keep this T2 for a while as she likes it.

I don't know the history of your WPC games but mine and my friends are some of the most solid machines we have. Once gone over they just run.

There isn't any reason your T2 should be any different.

#33 3 days ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

I don't know the history of your WPC games but mine and my friends are some of the most solid machines we have. Once gone over they just run.
There isn't any reason your T2 should be any different.

You are fortunate. i've had over 12 WPC games. I've had to do the following repairs
Burnt connectors (Easy fix, but a pain)
Bridge rectifiers (they fixed this on WPC95)
Audio chips
Transistors

That is just a small sampling. What is funny is that I used to be a Bally/Williams snob. I used to poo-poo Sega/Data East/Stern. Flippers being a big point of contention. Now that I have my first WPC in over 10 years, the WMS flippers seem different than the Stern I am used to. I didn't like them at first.

#34 3 days ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

Caps aren't too bad. Clip the leads flush with the board so there is less to pull through. Then add fresh solder for good heat transfer. Then use two irons to heat both at once and have a helper pull out the cap when ready.

I am a bit ADHD and sometimes when I work on a large cap, I'll have a sudden moment of anxiety where I am like "Crap, did I discharge the cap?" While I've got the iron close to jumping the leads.

One time, I thought that it would be cool to use a screwdriver jump a large-ish cap that I had removed. (I think it was a 15K mfd)
I was expecting a good pop. I had severely underestimated the pop. Nothing happened other than a scorched screwdriver and having the living daylights scared out of me. But since then, I respect caps.

#35 3 days ago
Quoted from dinot:

I am a bit ADHD and sometimes when I work on a large cap, I'll have a sudden moment of anxiety where I am like "Crap, did I discharge the cap?" While I've got the iron close to jumping the leads.
One time, I thought that it would be cool to use a screwdriver jump a large-ish cap that I had removed. (I think it was a 15K mfd)
I was expecting a good pop. I had severely underestimated the pop. Nothing happened other than a scorched screwdriver and having the living daylights scared out of me. But since then, I respect caps.

Then you have never had the fun of discharging a 1.5K Joule CAP on a rolling ship at sea. Sometimes we had a bang stick, and sometimes we had a strip of ground braid that would vaporize and the sound of a shot gun going off. They were called sparkers that put sound the ocean for geophysical work.

#36 3 days ago
Quoted from dinot:

You are fortunate. i've had over 12 WPC games. I've had to do the following repairs
Burnt connectors (Easy fix, but a pain)
Bridge rectifiers (they fixed this on WPC95)
Audio chips
Transistors
That is just a small sampling. What is funny is that I used to be a Bally/Williams snob. I used to poo-poo Sega/Data East/Stern. Flippers being a big point of contention. Now that I have my first WPC in over 10 years, the WMS flippers seem different than the Stern I am used to. I didn't like them at first.

That list could be the same for any brand of machine or level. My point was that the WPC can and in my experience are just solid. Many of these have had hard lives. I just go through them when I get them and usually don’t have to touch them again except normal maintenance. Most of the issues with these and others are well known and documented. Even my old Gottlieb’s have been trouble free.

You’re T2 should be solid too. Fun machine!

#37 3 days ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

That list could be the same for any brand of machine or level. My point was that the WPC can and in my experience are just solid. Many of these have had hard lives. I just go through them when I get them and usually don’t have to touch them again except normal maintenance. Most of the issues with these and others are well known and documented. Even my old Gottlieb’s have been trouble free.
You’re T2 should be solid too. Fun machine!

Hopefully. I just had such a good (maintenance) experience with SAM that they made WPC look awful. Again, WPC95 were MUCH better than previous WPC. Spike has not been so great so far. Lost a cabinet node board, and some light boards on Star Wars and interestingly I've had 2 wires that broke somewhere and I had to run new wires (This happened twice on brand new machines).

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 15.00
Electronics
Yorktown Arcade Supply
Electronics
$ 179.95
Electronics
PinSound
Electronics
5,500 (Firm)
Machine - For Sale
Los Angeles, CA
$ 399.95
Lighting - Led
Pin Stadium Pinball Mods
Led
$ 109.95
Electronics
PinSound
Electronics

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!