As of fliptronics (maybe earlier not sure) that is actually *not* what EOS is for. Fliptronics sends a short burst of high power (like 40ms) then lower hold power keeps the flipper up until the button is released. Eos has no impact on this.

Where eos will hurt your strength is if the physical spring from the switch puts physical resistance on the flipper mechanism.

Eos is only used on fliptronics to prevent a fast ball hitting the flipper while you are holding the flipper up from knocking the flipper down. The eos may trigger in this case and tell the CPU to send another 40ms burst to keep the flipper up.

This also all applies to the stern line since data east times and is actually well explanned in the data east manuals.

Depends which game. For an EM very true, or solid state games where high power goes through flipper button points and EOS points. For Williams' Fliptronics - not true - EOS points are normally open and don't work like other systems.

LTG

So, let me get this straight because I am having issues with a weak flipper after I completed a rebuild (with all new EVERYTHING)...

With all that has been said in this post, if the "gap" from the first closing of the switch to the end of the flipper stroke is more than 1/8", the flipper could be weak and if the gap is less than 1/8" the flipper could get knocked down by a strong enough ball?

I was expecting my flippers to be really strong after the rebuild and they seem almost weaker than they were with the old parts.

I was under the impression that the EOS switches do still switch from high to low power in the coil in fliptronics games. The CPU can compensate for this if the switch fails, which keeps the coil from cooking, but it's not as perfect as if the switch is working. The switch needs to be activated at the very height of the flip. Too soon and the flipper will be weak.

That makes sense if the power is cut on contact, but reading the pinballrehab.com instructions would seem to indicate otherwise. This is why I am confused. The flipper rebuild sticky on this site doesn't speak to normally open switches, so no help there.

What game, please ?

And a few thoughts just to be sure. New plunger assembly - did it wiggle freely ? Do you have a tiny bit of up and down play on the flipper so the pawl isn't binding on parts below the playfield ?

The coil stop and the other bracket holding the coil - nice and straight and not leaning in or out.

LTG : )

I've never noticed this.

Main thing is be sure optos on the flipper button opto boards are clean. A little dirty and you start losing power.

LTG : )

My game is a STTNG, and everything was done by the book. No play in the coil assembly, some play in the flipper pawl (adjusted using the credit card "tool"). No binding in the flipper path at all. Just trying to understand where flipper strength comes from and how the EOS works in regards to this.

So closing the switch means nothing except that the flipper will not drop when hit?

Then why the 1/8" "gap" when adjusting the switch?

So flipper strength on a fliptronics system is not really adjustable unless the optos are dirty. The weakness, or perceived weakness, is due to dirty optos, old parts, wrong coil type, binding of some type in the flipper mechanism, or damaged new parts.

Then again, if the purpose of the EOS switch is to tell the board that the flipper is (getting) to the end of its stroke then it stands to reason that the later it closes, the longer the high voltage (flipper strength) is being sent to the coil. Then having the switch close at the last possible second (at the absolute end of the flipper path) would lead to a stronger flipper (maybe only slightly?). The high voltage has to be regulated somehow to prevent the coil from overheating...

Sort of feels like you didn't read the thread *at all* since what you wrote is wrong when it comes to wpc and newer. Read the second post in this thread. It explains it to you.

I see what you are saying. Don't need to be so acidic next time, though. Sometimes a newcomer just needs things explained in a way he understands. Patience would have been more appreciated than an insult. However, point was understood either way. Thank you.

Telling you to read the thread is not an insult. Considering you contributed to the thread you should at least read through it first, don't you think? You didn't need anything explained so you could understand it. You just needed to read what was here.

Telling you what you wrote is wrong (when it is wrong) is not an insult. An insult is something like "you're an idiot". I said none of those sorts of things.

Ahh, I stand corrected.

EOS aside, you should check if the coil is getting hot as you play. Absolutely, dirty or faulty optos for the flipper button can wreak havoc as well. You can flip in the switch edges test to see if you have any fluctuation or flicker in the optos.

Until and unless you put the output of the fliptronics board through a capture scope, all you have is conjecture.

The proper way to test any and all theories is to tape up an EOS switch on a fliptronics machine, then read the pulse width, as that'll be the maximum allowed on time. Then take off the tape, and adjust the EOS switch so that it closes early. Read the on time again. If it's the same, then the EOS isn't used in the timing on the initial flip.

I don't foresee myself getting bored enough to try this experiment for quite a while. Until somebody does it, all you have is conjecture.

I *do* know that data east flipper boards do not use the EOS for their initial flip. My gut feeling is that this is what contributes greatly to the different feel between DE fliptronics and WMS fliptronics. But that's just conjecture at this point.

It's actually not conjecture. I believe that it's documented in their manuals. There is no reason to come off doubting this and assume its all wrong until a third party scopes it. We should assume the parts work as documented unless someone proves contrary.

(chuckle) To what manual, and what page, are you referring? I am not aware of this information being documented anywhere in WMS manuals, but if you know where it is I'm certainly willing to look.