Indy: F116 blowing when flippers are connected

Hi all

After searching the archives, I know this question has been asked a thousand times, but I am not grasping what to do next.

My IJ has suddenly started blowing F116 whenever you hit the flippers. I disconected J118, which stopped the fuse from blowing, but also disconnects the flippers. I ran a full battery of tests, and it appears to be ONLY the flippers which are not working.

So I'm not sure what to test next. I am getting a solid 12V from the TP on the board; I am confident BR5 which serves the 12V is working, because the other coils are firing. And the coils themselves are not causing the fuse to blow, it's the buttons themselves(?!)

So do I need to start looking at the Fliptronics board? I have never had to diagnose anything on that board. The fuses there look OK; I am about to pull them to test for sure.

Post last edited 6 years ago.

#2 6 years ago

ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

Hoping for a pointer bump.

#3 6 years ago

KSP

kpull

BK Pinball

Sterling Heights, MI

11y 53,050 479 8

Check to see if the diodes at the flipper coils are attached. Is one specific side blowing it?

#4 6 years ago

C M

CadillacMusic

Inactive member

F116 is a weird one to be blowing, because that's your 12 v unregulated. Not exactly related to flippers, normally. I'd unplug flipper power (the big connector at the top of the fliptronic board), hit the buttons, and see what happens.

Edit: I couldn't tell if you'd done this or not by your posts. If you've determined it is the buttons themselves, try one at a time.

#5 6 years ago

C M

CadillacMusic

Inactive member

Actually, did someone do funky wiring on your machine? Unplugging J 118 should do diddly squat to your flippers. It should go to your display board, and playfield motors, and coin door. Totally different 12v, 12v digital, goes to the flipper board.

#6 6 years ago

ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

Quoted from CadillacMusic:
Actually, did someone do funky wiring on your machine? Unplugging J 118 should do diddly squat to your flippers. It should go to your display board, and playfield motors, and coin door. Totally different 12v, 12v digital, goes to the flipper board.

Yep makes sense - that’s exactly what shuts down when the fuse goes. AND the flipper coils themselves aren’t causing it, since they work find in test. I can’t figure out what J118 is disabling .. except the flippers, it is really strange. The J118 connector has a grey/yellow wire and a ground. Grey/yellow goes to the left flipper. So I’m looking for some other ideas of what to test next! Every soldenoid works fine even when I disconnect J118.

I have not determined if it’s left or right, or either/both; I have a couple more fuses... lol I guess I can do that

#7 6 years ago

C M

CadillacMusic

Inactive member

My guess: Someone confused the digital 12 and the unregulated 12. Given that unregulated is usually about 14v, it will still run the board, just at a higher voltage than intended. Trace both the wires, and see what's up. Don't get confused if they're the same color wire - they still are different voltages. Remember the one from the left side of the power board should be going to the flipper board, not the one from j118

#8 6 years ago

ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

Quoted from CadillacMusic:
My guess: Someone confused the digital 12 and the unregulated 12. Given that unregulated is usually about 14v, it will still run the board, just at a higher voltage than intended. Trace both the wires, and see what's up. Don't get confused if they're the same color wire - they still are different voltages. Remember the one from the left side of the power board should be going to the flipper board, not the one from j118

Wow i never would have thought of that. Thanks, I will check that out. The unregulated test point is giving me 12.2V or so, which is why nothing is freaking out

#9 6 years ago

COZ

Coz

RiverCity Arcade

6y 125K 3,818

How many additional mods do you have? Colordmd, topper, additional led?? It could be overloaded

#10 6 years ago

ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

Quoted from Coz:
How many additional mods do you have? Colordmd, topper, additional led?? It could be overloaded

Not much - I have a PinSound and a ColorDMD, but I unplugged both and it still blows, so I think it is something else. The fuse *only* blows when the flipper button is pushed, not when the COILS themselves go. When I go into test mode I can fire the solenoids all day long, as long as I don't hit the actual button. It seems like something is shorting, but I have no idea what this has to do with J118. When I get home I am going to take a look at the wiring and see if the 12V reg is plugged into the 12V Unreg

#11 6 years ago

ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

Going home to test right now...

1 week later

#12 6 years ago

ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

So I’m still having this issue with my IJ - it is definitely something in the flipper signal path. I reversed the flipper optos, and F116 still blows.

I have checked the manual and I am pretty sure everything is set up correctly.

Also unplugged the connector from the left flipper opto, and it does not blow. So something in that path is causing the problem, but I can not figure out what.
I replaced BR5 in case that was the problem. It tested ok, but I replaced it anyway. Still no luck.
The grey/yellow wire seems to be the culprit but I am not sure what else to look at.
One other thing I noticed was that the German plane’s LEDs are constantly lit, so could a transistor have blown on the PDB? How would this affect the flippers.
Test says the left flipper opto is out when I disconnect J118, so the flippers are going through that connector. That seems weird, but it does look like the manual confirms it, if I’m reading it right. Any ideas? The other threads here have focused on a short in the game but I am fairly certain I have a blown component somewhere

#13 6 years ago

D G

Pin_Guy

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:
So I’m still having this issue with my IJ - it is definitely something in the flipper signal path. I reversed the flipper optos, and F116 still blows.

Does it only blow when you hit right flipper, or left flipper?
Did reversing the flipper optos change which flipper causes the fuse to blow?
Did you verify the wiring of the flipper opto connectors?

pasted_image (resized).png

#14 6 years ago

D G

Pin_Guy

Pinside member

The most useful diagram for helping to T/S this issue:

pasted_image (resized).png

#15 6 years ago

D G

Pin_Guy

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:
Test says the left flipper opto is out when I disconnect J118, so the flippers are going through that connector. That seems weird, but it does look like the manual confirms it, if I’m reading it right. Any ideas?

FWIW
J116, J117, and J118 are all tied to the same source on the PDB, are keyed the same, and therefore are interchangeable. Operationally it doesn't matter if your flippers optos are connected to J118 or J116, but it will matter when you start performing connector to connector resistance checks when looking for shorts.

pasted_image (resized).png

#16 6 years ago

ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

Thanks for the diagrams! The game blows the fuse immediately when I turn it on, if the J118 connector is plugged in. Or if I connect J118 and disconnect the connection at the flipper opto. It doesn't blow when I push the button, it blows immediately. I would think this indicates a short, but I just don't see anything. as far as i can tell, That wire goes right from the flipper opto, into the grey cable tube, right to the power driver board.

Also, this just happened one day, i did not have the game lifted or open, which leads me to believe something shorted, but i am unsure what. Could the flipper opto board(s) cause a short like this? seems unlikely

edit: changed misleading thread title

#17 6 years ago

D G

Pin_Guy

Pinside member

Having the fuse blow on power on should be a fairly easy problem to find, but lets stop blowing fuses

Please perform the following:
1) Turn off your machine
2) Hook up your multimeter positive lead to PDB TP1 (+12V), place your negative lead on PDB TP5 (ground)
3) Set your multimeter to the ohms scale
4) With all the cables connected normally record the meter reading...
5) Disconnect the right flipper opto and record the meter reading ...
6) Disconnect your left flipper opto and record the reading...
7) Reconnect your right flipper and record the reading ...

Report back with your meter readings.

NOTE: There should not be a significant resistance change between having all items connected and having all items disconnected...

#18 6 years ago

ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

Quoted from Pin_Guy:
Having the fuse blow on power on should be a fairly easy problem to find, but lets stop blowing fuses
Please perform the following:
1) Turn off your machine
2) Hook up your multimeter positive lead to PDB TP1 (+12V), place your negative lead on PDB TP5 (ground)
3) Set your multimeter to the ohms scale
4) With all the cables connected normally record the meter reading...
5) Disconnect the right flipper opto and record the meter reading ...
6) Disconnect your left flipper opto and record the reading...
7) Reconnect your right flipper and record the reading ...
Report back with your meter readings.
NOTE: There should not be a significant resistance change between having all items connected and having all items disconnected...

61.2 (both connected)
65.8 (neither connected)
63 (only right connected)

These all seem in line, eh?

#19 6 years ago

D G

Pin_Guy

Pinside member

I expected the resistance to be higher overall, but the main thing is that the resistance didn't vary much between having the flipper boards connected vs disconnected so it appears there is no ground short on the boards as it would be fairly obvious.

I'm just wondering if the flippers are a red herring and the problem is actually elsewhere. I'd be curious to know if the fuse blows with J116 removed and J118 connected; assuming these are actually on the wrong spots J116 will be powering all playfield boards ... motors ... etc.

#20 6 years ago

BTF

PinballManiac40

Pinside+ Frequent

Try disconnecting the POA motor and see if it blows the fuse when you turn on the game. Mine did at one point when I first installed my ColorDMD. I blew out F116 three times before I had moved the POA manually back and forth a couple of times then my fuse had no longer blown since then, been 3 years now. I think the motor had been a spot that drew more current than normal.

#21 6 years ago

ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

Quoted from Pin_Guy:
I expected the resistance to be higher overall, but the main thing is that the resistance didn't vary much between having the flipper boards connected vs disconnected so it appears there is no ground short on the boards as it would be fairly obvious.
I'm just wondering if the flippers are a red herring and the problem is actually elsewhere. I'd be curious to know if the fuse blows with J116 removed and J118 connected; assuming these are actually on the wrong spots J116 will be powering all playfield boards ... motors ... etc.

I’m about to go downstairs to check, but I believe J118 and J116 are actually reversed. J118 is supposed to power the mini playfield, and it still works in test mode, even when that connector is off the board. I wonder if I should try replacing my flippertronics board with that from my TZ and see if i can isolate things that way.

So if the LEDs on the plane are constantly lit, doesn’t that indicate a blown transistor?

#22 6 years ago

FNG

DumbAss

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 109K 2,980

OP
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:
So if the LEDs on the plane are constantly lit, doesn’t that indicate a blown transistor?

According to the wiring diagram J118 powers:

- 10 Switch Opto PCB (A-15430)
- 3 Switch Opto PCB (A-13901-2) => Ball lock (idol) optos
- Motor EMI PCB (A-15340) => Ball lock (idol) motor
- Motor Opto Switch PCB (A-16657) => Mini playfield optos
- Bridge Driver PCB (A-15946) => Mini playfield motor
- 3-bank Opto Drop Target PCB (A-13609) => Center drop target optos
- Plane Gun LEDs

The manual is ambiguous about the flipper opto buttons. One part says it's powered by J116 and another states it's powered by J904. I'm not at my IJ so I cannot check how it's wired.

The Plane Gun LEDs are driven by Q32 on the power driver board. Also note that (if I recall correctly) the SAME drive wire (Blu-Gry) is used to drive the Extra Ball button at the front of the cabinet. That flasher get its power from the coin door +12V that is supposed to be J116.

As I've said I'm not at my IJ so I cannot confirm any of this but I do hope this gives you some information that can help you track down where your problem might be. I do have another wiring harness from a disassembled IJ that I can take a look at to verify anything you need. I have to dig it up. It's waiting for playfield restoration.

#23 6 years ago

C M

CadillacMusic

Inactive member

Wait. What happens if you take the plug from 117, remove it, and then plug the plug from 118 into it?

#24 6 years ago

ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

Quoted from CadillacMusic:
Wait. What happens if you take the plug from 117, remove it, and then plug the plug from 118 into it?

I believe it still blows the fuse. I also swapped 116 and 118, and the connector with the Grey/yellow wire is what caused the fuse to heat up and blow

#25 6 years ago

D G

Pin_Guy

Pinside member

Quoted from DumbAss:
The manual is ambiguous about the flipper opto buttons. One part says it's powered by J116 and another states it's powered by J904.

This is sort of true ... The fliptronics board is powered by J904; the flipper opto boards are powered by PBD connector J116, J117, or J118 depending on where they are actually connected, but they are technically supposed to be on J116

#26 6 years ago

D G

Pin_Guy

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:
I believe it still blows the fuse. I also swapped 116 and 118, and the connector with the Grey/yellow wire is what caused the fuse to heat up and blow

All three connectors (J116, J117, and J118) should have a grey/yellow wire (+12VU) on Pin 2...please find the one that goes into the black conduit (playfield) this should be on J118 and remove it...this is starting to get a little confusing as your connection points are not standard.

pasted_image (resized).png

Removing the playfield connector will likely reduce the load on the +12V and its my opinion you will not blow a fuse.

Good Bally/Williams information to know ... all wires in the grey conduit should be cabinet cables and all wires in the black conduit should be playfield cables

#27 6 years ago

D G

Pin_Guy

Pinside member

Realistically...this entire problem may be related to your airplane flashers being stuck on.

#28 6 years ago

ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

All right! Thanks so much for all the ideas and encouragement - sorry I wasn’t able to be super clear earlier, I was still at work so doing Things from memory.

I just blew a bunch of fuses trying different things, replaced both flipper opto boards just in case - and I have narrowed it down to this: when I close the coil door, the game blows. Immediately.

But with all connectors plugged in, coin door open AND the white high voltage switch pushed in (so coils are firing and the game is otherwise fully operational), I can play a whole game with no problem. WtF. so the coin door is somehow snorting something? This is getting nuts. I would say this means my boards are ok, game seems totally ok otherwise. What should I do now? Look for loose wires? I am not experienced with coin door wiring unfortunately. There are 2 coin mechs which I am going to disconnect.

#29 6 years ago

AAA

pintechev

Inactive member

11y 91,300 4,437

Does the playfield being raised or lowered matter for the fuses blowing when the door closing?

#30 6 years ago

ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

Quoted from pintechev:
Does the playfield being raised or lowered matter for the fuses blowing when the door closing?

Just tested that - it still blew when I closed the door with the PF raised. I disconnected the coin mech board (what’s the proper name of this?) and no change. We’re getting close here! Although I’m sure keeping the coin door open doesn’t pass the wife test.. lol

I saw A previous post about some wire getting pinched; I will have to review that

#31 6 years ago

D G

Pin_Guy

Pinside member

What happens with the coin door open and the interlock switches pushed in?

Additional information: Only J3 from the coin door interface board actually goes to the coin door. +12VU does NOT go to the coin door

pasted_image (resized).png
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#32 6 years ago

D G

Pin_Guy

Pinside member

NOTE: a shorted C1 on the coin door interface will cause your fuse to blow at power on...but this would happen regardless of the coin door being opened and I have never heard of this happening.

#33 6 years ago

ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

Quoted from Pin_Guy:
What happens with the coin door open and the interlock switches pushed in?
Additional information: Only J3 from the coin door interface board actually goes to the coin door. +12VU does NOT go to the coin door

I wonder if this game
Is wired incorrectly? I don’t see any 12v wires to the door, except to the door interface board. I pulled that connection.

Game plays 100% with door open and the interlock switch pushed in (there’s only one, not sure if that’s relevant).

There must be a short somewhere. Arrgh this is frustrating, but I will find it!!

#34 6 years ago

AAA

pintechev

Inactive member

11y 91,300 4,437

Does the fuse blow when the door touches the frame, or when the door closes the switch? Trying to understand what the specific action is here that causes the short.

#35 6 years ago

D G

Pin_Guy

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:
Game plays 100% with door open and the interlock switch pushed in (there’s only one, not sure if that’s relevant).

IIRC the second interlock feature that disables your +20V and +50V was added to domestic games while this game was being being manufactured. If you have your manual, on the back side of the first page, is there a page like this one?

pasted_image (resized).png

#36 6 years ago

D G

Pin_Guy

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:
There must be a short somewhere. Arrgh this is frustrating, but I will find it!!

I admire your attitude!

There should be nothing that could cause the issue you are seeing, the only thing on the coin door are your three MPU switches which use +12VR and two GI lamps

#37 6 years ago

ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

Quoted from Pin_Guy:
I admire your attitude!
There should be nothing that could cause the issue you are seeing, the only thing on the coin door are your three MPU switches which use +12VR and two GI lamps

Agreed; I think it must be a shorted wire somewhere that is touching when the door is closed. I think I’ll lift the PF fully and slowly close the door until the fuse pops. This is getting expensive! I only have a few left...

Oh, also I do not have an original manual, just one from IPDB

#38 6 years ago

AAA

pintechev

Inactive member

11y 91,300 4,437

Check under the apron as well, you never know...

#39 6 years ago

BTF

PinballManiac40

Pinside+ Frequent

Quoted from PinballManiac40:
Try disconnecting the POA motor and see if it blows the fuse when you turn on the game. Mine did at one point when I first installed my ColorDMD. I blew out F116 three times before I had moved the POA manually back and forth a couple of times then my fuse had no longer blown since then, been 3 years now. I think the motor had been a spot that drew more current than normal.

I'm still waiting to hear the result of this so I can ease my mind.

#40 6 years ago

ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

Quoted from PinballManiac40:
I'm still waiting to hear the result of this so I can ease my mind.

Sorry about that! Tried this, no change; it did not blow the fuse, until I hooked up the connector I noted above.

So I noticed that the German plane LEDs are tied in to the “super ball” button. I think that is where the issue is somehow.

Currently I have the coin door lights disconnected (not sure If they are the culprit but I don’t want to use another fuse to test), and checked for loose wires. This is so weird. Game has been playing great for half an hour! There is still one issue; I think the opto in the middle lock hole is bad - I lock a ball and it has to do 2 ball searches to launch the ball into the idol lock. So I’ll deal with that tomorrow...

Also, I replace the LM323 on all my boards when I have to work on them, with a P5US, which is like magic. I have super stable 5v every time with those things.
Currently this game is rocking a ColorDMD, PinSound, and an LEDOCD!

I’m not totally done here (still don’t understand root cause) but this is enough that I can sleep well tonight! Haha

#41 6 years ago

EDE

Ericpinballfan

Mod Magic!

8y 166K 10,434 7 1

I keep reading in frustrating...oh brither how many 3 amp slow blow fuses you gone through? 3anp right?
Im close, ill have an epiphany soon.

#42 6 years ago

D G

Pin_Guy

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:
Quoted from Pin_Guy:
Having the fuse blow on power on should be a fairly easy problem to find, but lets stop blowing fuses
Please perform the following:
1) Turn off your machine
2) Hook up your multimeter positive lead to PDB TP1 (+12V), place your negative lead on PDB TP5 (ground)
3) Set your multimeter to the ohms scale
4) With all the cables connected normally record the meter reading...
5) Disconnect the right flipper opto and record the meter reading ...
6) Disconnect your left flipper opto and record the reading...
7) Reconnect your right flipper and record the reading ...
Report back with your meter readings.
NOTE: There should not be a significant resistance change between having all items connected and having all items disconnected...

61.2 (both connected)
65.8 (neither connected)
63 (only right connected)

These all seem in line, eh?

65 ohms has got to be way too low...Is there someone out there with an IJ that can confirm this? I measured my STTNG 12VU and it's over 1M between TP5 and TP1.

DSC00342 (resized).JPG

#43 6 years ago

ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

Quoted from Ericpinballfan:
I keep reading in frustrating...oh brither how many 3 amp slow blow fuses you gone through? 3anp right?
Im close, ill have an epiphany soon.

Omg at least 12

#44 6 years ago

BTF

PinballManiac40

Pinside+ Frequent

Quoted from Pin_Guy:
65 ohms has got to be way too low...Is there someone out there with an IJ that can confirm this? I measured my STTNG 12VU and it's over 1M between TP5 and TP1.

That does sound way too low. My IJ is on loan at this time. It seems there is just simply too much on this 12Vunreg rail.

So it sounds like the LEDOCD is still connected? Does this run off of 12Vunreg?

#45 6 years ago

ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

Quoted from PinballManiac40:
That does sound way too low. My IJ is on loan at this time. It seems there is just simply too much on this 12Vunreg rail.
So it sounds like the LEDOCD is still connected? Does this run off of 12Vunreg?

I must have had my DMM on the wrong setting - I have to fix the lock optos tonight so I will re-measure.

Yes LEDOCD is still connected, I am not sure if it runs off the 12v, I was just saying it’s running stable so the PDB is not in question (which I was concerned about)

#46 6 years ago

BTF

PinballManiac40

Pinside+ Frequent

Do you by chance have lighted LED flipper buttons?

#47 6 years ago

ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

Quoted from PinballManiac40:
Do you by chance have lighted LED flipper buttons?

Nope, not on this game -

I did notice that the backbox key ring was getting pushed between the coin door and the frame - i moved it. Not sure if it’s related but the game started working after that..

#48 6 years ago

IKR

german-pinball

11y 73,400 911 31

OP
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:
Hi all
After searching the archives, I know this question has been asked a thousand times, but I am not grasping what to do next.
My IJ has suddenly started blowing F116 whenever you hit the flippers. I disconected J118, which stopped the fuse from blowing, but also disconnects the flippers. I ran a full battery of tests, and it appears to be ONLY the flippers which are not working.
So I'm not sure what to test next. I am getting a solid 12V from the TP on the board; I am confident BR5 which serves the 12V is working, because the other coils are firing. And the coils themselves are not causing the fuse to blow, it's the buttons themselves(?!)
So do I need to start looking at the Fliptronics board? I have never had to diagnose anything on that board. The fuses there look OK; I am about to pull them to test for sure.

You have tested so many things now.

If I were you, I would at first built a little testlamp, that has to be put in the fuseholder F116. See attached file for the lamp.

Positive side effect is, that you protect your connectors, save fuses and protect the traces on your PDB etc.

As long as the testlamp glows, there is a short somewhere. Then I would wiggle some harnesses under the playfield and look, when the lamp goes off, then you have found a harness, where ther mightbe a short.

You can also remove connectos and see, when the testlamp goes off.

Sorry, I am bit short here, but I am in my office and must drive home now.

TestLamp (resized).JPG

#49 6 years ago

D G

Pin_Guy

Pinside member