(Topic ID: 301777)

WPC ASIC datasheet

By A12742

2 years ago


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#1 2 years ago

Any chance you might have the datasheet for the WPC ASIC?

You know, it's that big PLCC located with the words "Motorola 5410-12426-00" or "Williams 5410-12426-01 1997" on the top

I tried using the various Internet search engines; no joy. But I did learn that retail prices on the ASIC have soared! >$100 is not uncommon. Yikes. And it seems everyone selling their damaged WPC-89 MPU on eBay knows to pull this chip so there's no cheap deals following that route.

#2 2 years ago
Quoted from A12742:

Any chance you might have the datasheet for the WPC ASIC?
You know, it's that big PLCC located with the words "Motorola 5410-12426-00" or "Williams 5410-12426-01 1997" on the top
I tried using the various Internet search engines; no joy. But I did learn that retail prices on the ASIC have soared! >$100 is not uncommon. Yikes. And it seems everyone selling their damaged WPC-89 MPU on eBay knows to pull this chip so there's no cheap deals following that route.

It is a custom programmed part not a generic one. You won't be able to buy it from conventional electronic suppliers.

#3 2 years ago
Quoted from pins4u:

It is a custom programmed part not a generic one. You won't be able to buy it from conventional electronic suppliers.

It's not just programming. The internal silicon chip design is custom too.

To develop something like this was quite expensive, but when made in huge quantities, it becomes affordable on a per-chip basis, especially when you're talking tens or hundreds of thousands of them (remember, TAF alone was a run of over 20,000 games).

Quoted from A12742:

But I did learn that retail prices on the ASIC have soared! >$100 is not uncommon. Yikes.

Whoa, I hadn't noticed they jumped up in price

Last time I looked, they were about half that.

Has the well for those finally started to run dry? It seemed like there was an endless supply of them.

#4 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

It's not just programming. The internal silicon chip design is custom too.
To develop something like this was quite expensive, but when made in huge quantities, it becomes affordable on a per-chip basis, especially when you're talking tens or hundreds of thousands of them (remember, TAF alone was a run of over 20,000 games).

Whoa, I hadn't noticed they jumped up in price
Last time I looked, they were about half that.
Has the well for those finally started to run dry? It seemed like there was an endless supply of them.

pins4u Yep, the WPC ASIC was custom; I was hopeful someone might have a datasheet (PDF). I'd like to understand its deeper function.

ForceFlow Check out some current pricing, Marco ($104.99), Little Shop (sold out), Action Pinball ($132 special order), Pinball Wizard ($74.95), Mad Amusement ($79). I'm not affiliated... cannot vouch for these companies... etc. Just my random sample. They're available & a little cheaper from Mr Pinball (AU$50). But note the decade-old, initially-informative, then rant-filled post in rec.games.pinball about a final remake of the ASIC. My conclusion, The ASIC aren't unobtainium, yet.

#5 2 years ago

I wonder what it would take to reverse engineer the CPU ASIC with discreet, off the shelf parts. I guess we can kind of get an idea from comparing the WPC89 and WPC95 display board that started discreet parts and later had an ASIC.

That or some other kind of programmable device to handle all the business the ASIC does.

Quoted from A12742:

pins4u Yep, the WPC ASIC was custom; I was hopeful someone might have a datasheet (PDF). I'd like to understand its deeper function.
ForceFlow Check out some current pricing, Marco ($104.99), Little Shop (sold out), Action Pinball ($132 special order), Pinball Wizard ($74.95), Mad Amusement ($79). I'm not affiliated... cannot vouch for these companies... etc. Just my random sample. They're available & a little cheaper from Mr Pinball (AU$50). But note the decade-old, initially-informative, then rant-filled post in rec.games.pinball about a final remake of the ASIC. My conclusion, The ASIC aren't unobtainium, yet.

Where these really re-produced at some point? I think I remember the post about new ones, but skeptical since some of the other stuff he talked about did not materialize. I would be more likely to think WMS was sitting on a bunch of them when they closed up shop, but who knows. Anyone know what the date codes on a new one you buy? I get the impression they are in small supply from the raising costs.

PPS holds the license, I wonder if Motorola still have the dye or whatever needed to spin up more. If they can, what is the (probably astronomical) cost is? Take it to another fab willing to do smaller run? Probably a pipe dream... it would be nice to have the ASIC included when you buy a new MPU. That is just one more thing that can go wrong on the WPC board install.

#6 2 years ago
Quoted from A12742:

I was hopeful someone might have a datasheet (PDF). I'd like to understand its deeper function.

Other than the pinouts and a function description, it's essentially a black box. As far as I'm aware, specific documentation hasn't been released.

https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#WPC_ASIC_Pinout

https://web.archive.org/web/20110122183733/http://www.oddchange.com/freewpc/manual/The-WPC-Hardware.html

The WPC ASIC is the heart of the system and is essentially a giant address decoder. It combines a lot of the functionality that was performed by PIAs and TTL logic in earlier solid state games. All read/write requests from the CPU are first seen by the ASIC, which can then either respond to it directly if it is an internal function, or forward the request to another device. RAM and ROM requests cause those devices enables to be asserted. For I/O, it may be more complicated and cause I/O to other circuit boards.

Quoted from barakandl:

I wonder what it would take to reverse engineer the CPU ASIC with discreet, off the shelf parts. I guess we can kind of get an idea from comparing the WPC89 and WPC95 display board that started discreet parts and later had an ASIC.

That or some other kind of programmable device to handle all the business the ASIC does.

Ed Cheung is the only person I'm aware of who has done a really deep dive into reverse engineering WPC hardware.

https://www.edcheung.com/album/album07/Pinball/wpc_sound.htm

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

I would be more likely to think WMS was sitting on a bunch of them when they closed up shop, but who knows.

A number of years ago, someone on ebay was selling a whole bunch of NOS ASICs by the sleeve for a good price. I imagine there was quite a bit left over since Williams was going through thousands per year.

#8 2 years ago

Is the ASIC the same for WPC89 & WPC95 MPU’s or are they different?

#9 2 years ago

pspa had them .. sold LOTS for aud30 each a few years ago..

#10 2 years ago

barakandl Let me Acknowledge your CA3081 replacement. Nice work: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/ca3081-replacements-with-discreet-transistors

Flipperfun [edit]The WPC-89 and WPC-95 MPUs use this ASIC.[edit] It is a PLCC; something you can extract with great care . Use a PLCC puller. Read the PinWiki and its warning not to break the corners.

Agree, FreeWPC and Pin MAME have (without a doubt) codified the inner working of the WPC-89 ASIC. But, that'd be code vs. text in a datasheet.

Yes, Ed's work (reverse engineering DCS sound) was amazing. Ed even postulated the notion of putting an entire WPC system into an FPGA in the decade-old "ASIC remade" post.

#11 2 years ago

One final point for posterity: the rec.games.pinball post at: https://rec.games.pinball.narkive.com/49hU8YJF/wayne-has-asic-remade mentions a "Motorola S38FC049PI03" which I suspect is just a manufacturing/lot number stamped on a (Motorola branded) WPC-89 ASIC. I mention this in case someone searches (stumbles) on this topic. Indeed someone already has and while looking for a completely different chip, S38FC004PG02 at: https://twitter.com/foone/status/1317575905527562240. Foone then notes "I found someone trying to find info on a Motorola ASIC from the "mid to late 1980s", which has a marking of S38FC049PI03. Which is similar in style to my S38FC004PG02" at: https://twitter.com/foone/status/1326057486294528000. Well no. Their picture shows that S38FC004PG02 is an actual chip; whereas S38FC049PI03 is just a lot number for an ASIC used on (a bunch of) pinball machines.

So no datasheet . Thanks everyone.

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from A12742:

The WPC-89 ASIC is a PLCC; something with great care you can extract. Use a PLCC puller. Read the PinWiki and its warning not to break the corners. The WPC-95 ASIC is a surface mount chip and difficult to solder to the board, for me at least. Planetary still has them for $30 (again, no affiliation, just an inconclusive random sample.)

Not quite. WPC-95 uses the same ASIC on the MPU, but the WPC-95 system *also* has another and different surface-mount ASIC on the AV board.

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Not quite. WPC-95 uses the same ASIC on the MPU, but the WPC-95 system *also* has another and different surface-mount ASIC on the AV board.

Thanks for technical correction. You are indeed correct. I edited my post.

#14 2 years ago

Yes I do have the data for the asic as i had them remade, the problem now is they no longer make this old NON ROHS chip and would need to be redone in a different package like we did with the AV ASIC, so would need an adapter board. Good news is i still have several thousand of the CPU Asics so no need to worry just yet

#15 2 years ago

Another reason to get those batteries off the board. Ran into a junkyard with lots of corrosion on the asic pins.

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballplusMN:

Another reason to get those batteries off the board. Ran into a junkyard with lots of corrosion on the asic pins.

Mine are the cheapest in the World $50 AUD about $35US so now is the time to stock up and buy one as a spare, many resellers are buying them up and selling for $80-$100US each

#17 2 years ago

Try asking around the pinMame scene they must of emulated this chip or at least have a much better understanding of what it is, if it’s function / firmware is know you could create a micro controller alternative I guess. Is a lot of work though but if can sell hundreds at $75 might be worth it

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

I wonder what it would take to reverse engineer the CPU ASIC with discreet

You would need someone to de-lid the chip, hopefully not damaging it in the process, then use a scanning electron microscope to examine the physical logic, reverse engineer it, and then program it into a FPGA and make an adapter for the ASIC socket (or pinout at least, with a form factor that matches on the pins).

If you want a true hardware-level reproduction without the benefit of just having the ability to directly produce the chip as it was.

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

You would need someone to de-lid the chip, hopefully not damaging it in the process, then use a scanning electron microscope to examine the physical logic, reverse engineer it, and then program it into a FPGA.

The WPC ASIC is not very complex, so probably a CPLD would be enough. But power consumption might be a problem. WPC ASIC is CMOS, designed to run on batteries while FPGA's and CPLD's are not exactly low power. If the clock functionality is left out, then the replacement chip would not need to be battery powered. And of course already many people run their boards with NVRAM and no batteries, so the RTC clock is anyway not running.

#20 2 years ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

The WPC ASIC is not very complex, so probably a CPLD would be enough. But power consumption might be a problem. WPC ASIC is CMOS, designed to run on batteries while FPGA's and CPLD's are not exactly low power. If the clock functionality is left out, then the replacement chip would not need to be battery powered. And of course already many people run their boards with NVRAM and no batteries, so the RTC clock is anyway not running.

Thanks for the more detailed info there.

#21 2 years ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

The WPC ASIC is not very complex, so probably a CPLD would be enough. But power consumption might be a problem. WPC ASIC is CMOS, designed to run on batteries while FPGA's and CPLD's are not exactly low power. If the clock functionality is left out, then the replacement chip would not need to be battery powered. And of course already many people run their boards with NVRAM and no batteries, so the RTC clock is anyway not running.

well people have had over 30 years to do it so far, so whats stopping them?

#22 2 years ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

well people have had over 30 years to do it so far, so whats stopping them?

Good availability of NOS ASICs.

The ASIC operation is quite clear if you look at Pinmame sources. Making an equivalent CPLD is not hard but then it would not be pin compatible, and need a socket adapter or new PCB design, which are not reasonable at current ASIC prices.

The whole WPC CPU, minus ROM, I/O buffers and LM339's could be implemented into a compact design with FPGA.

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

Good availability of NOS ASICs.

^^ this

theres a certain special red mpu getting around with a manually burnt asic in it (no williams label etc)

its very likely got the code on it unprotected but its never been worth the cost of a suitable programming environment to see now that you cant get them anyway.

just one of those things thats not worth the trouble any more.

#24 2 years ago

An ASIC is not something you can copy by reading one chip and burning another. It is a custom made chip, done to the specifications from equipment manufacturer.

Of course, if you have the original specs, you can order new ASICs made, but dont bother if your order is not at least thousands of pcs. And while you can re-create the specs by observing what the ASIC does, if it is simple enough (like Pinmame people did), write VHDL or Verilog (hardware specification language) code out of those and put that into FPGA or CPLD (programmable logic chips) you are still bounded by the PL chip packaging and pinout. Making an exact plugin replacement forces you to go the ASIC way.

#25 2 years ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

Yes I do have the data for the asic as i had them remade, the problem now is they no longer make this old NON ROHS chip and would need to be redone in a different package like we did with the AV ASIC, so would need an adapter board. Good news is i still have several thousand of the CPU Asics so no need to worry just yet

What your website? May order a couple. Ty

#26 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballplusMN:

What your website? May order a couple. Ty

https://shop.mrpinball.com.au/product/ic-wpc-asic/

2008 date code in the picture so those would have been made long after WMS closed up the pinball division.

#27 2 years ago
Quoted from wiredoug:

^^ this
theres a certain special red mpu getting around with a manually burnt asic in it (no williams label etc)
its very likely got the code on it unprotected but its never been worth the cost of a suitable programming environment to see now that you cant get them anyway.
just one of those things thats not worth the trouble any more.

Correct and we have the programmer for those as well from Williams, but they are security locked and the programmable asics are NLA and are more expensive.

#28 2 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

https://shop.mrpinball.com.au/product/ic-wpc-asic/
2008 date code in the picture so those would have been made long after WMS closed up the pinball division.

over 1,000 pces were snapped up in the past 24 hours

1 week later
#29 2 years ago

just bought 4. Starting to see games in the wild with corrosion on the legs of these. Good to have some spares.

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