Redwood City, CA
This is great news Rick. What a way to breath new life into some great playing tables.
(Topic ID: 86044)
Linked Games
Cirqus Voltaire
Bally, 1997-
FunHouse
Williams, 1990
-
Tales of the Arabian Nights
Williams, 1996
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Quoted from fastpinball:I am putting together information about our mission, hardware, etc. for our fastpinball.com website. I hope to have that up later today.
I can't speak to how our hardware is different than P-ROC because we aren't P-ROC users. Instead, I will need to focus on describing our hardware platform and it's goals and let the community comment on the differences and similarities.
The FAST WPC Controller is just one of the hardware form factors and was created specifically for use with the WPC platform and for delivering the WPC 2.0 games. I hope that the information we will be sharing in the coming weeks leading up to the formal unveiling of our platform will give everyone a better idea of where we are taking things and how our mission is different from that of Multimorphic.
I'll be sure to update this thread as we get more info onto our website as well.
Aaron
Will wait to see the information but at this point feels a little like VHS or Beta.
Quoted from PPS:The solutions that we approve will be with those who are constructing the solution and will encompase the entire solution to the customer, that is the case. Anyone that wants to put a legitimate solution proposal can always come to me as has already been done - which is with a proposal, how ip is being handled, etc. Fast hardware is not the solution, it's a piece of the solution where they are very receptive to addressing any of our concerns for ip protection when that protection is needed (which is not for custom games, one-offs, etc).
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So if I understand you correctly, if someone comes up with a project using Williams IP that is implemented with FAST pinball, P-Roc or whatever (and they want to sell or distribute it), they just need to take care of the licensing approval with you to make the project legit.
Is that right?
Quoted from PPS:They need to make a proposal, insure that our considerations over IP protection are met, discuss the business arrangement, how it would be sold, distributed, and maintained, etc - i.e. be serious about it, and then we can discuss. It is not a 'given' that every proposal comes to an agreement.
Thanks for the response Rick.
It sounds like the ability to enhance existing games will be nice but that it really isn't intended for the casual hobbyist who wants to just add cool things to a game and share it with the community without the added complication of sales, required maintenance, IP protection, etc...
Is this correct?
Or, do you think it will be possible to do some things, such as rule enhancements or adding triggers for mods, for example, without the need for licensing approval?
Quoted from fastpinball:I dont think it does. If you put the FAST WPC Controller hardware into your WPC game, you get access to all the sound, etc. that are already in the game. So if you wrote original code to interact with your Dracula and shared that original code with a friend who ran it on a FAST WPC Controller in his/her Dracula, then you didn't distribute any of the DMD frames or audio, just what you created to work with it.
Aaron
I'm confused. I thought Rick was saying that if you make any changes (including additions) to existing Williams code it would infringe on their IP. In your example, you might not be messing with the sound roms but you would be making changes to the game code in regards to rules and sound calls.
Rick, any clarification here?
Quoted from fastpinball:If you bought the stand alone hardware that didnt have a "2.0" game running on it, you totally could. Try it in each machine and code away.
If you bought "Dracula 2.0" as a released game, it and any released game can be switched into "tinker" mode. So when talking about the Popadiuk games mentioned at the show, if you bought one of those you could:
a) run the new code (enhanced mode)
b) play the original roms (classic mode)
c) write some code of your own for the game (tinker mode)
So if you took the hardware you bought for you Circus Voltaire 2.0 and put it into a Dracula cabinet, the only option that would be useful in that case would be the "tinker mode."
This was an important part of our negotiations with PPS. We feel like its a cool way to let users begin to experiment with programming because they can with hardware they bought for their enhanced game. It is such a great learning opportunity.
Aaron
Let's say, I have Circus Voltaire 2.0. Will I be able to put it in tinker mode, then add rules to the existing ones, use existing sounds and DMD effects as a base to either make new ones or just to place in different places?
Once done, can I then share these changes with friends who also have Circus Voltaire 2.0 without infringing on Williams IP?
Edit: I guess Rosh and I are asking similar things.
Quoted from fastpinball:This one might be hard to answer simple in a post, but I will give it a shot. Rick, chime in if my description is totally confusing!
When you are "tinkering" with your "Circus Voltaire 2.0" you are using the resources that are available for you. The simplest being the assets in the original hardware that are accessible. So then if we think of the "original code" or "new code" as a black box where you cannot access what is going on inside, but you can capture the things that it does as a result of your input and use them to create a different experience in your code, that is fine. Like you can now. You can share that with others who own the "Circus Voltaire 2.0" and they can drop in the code your share with them and run it in "tinker" mode.
Does this sound like what you were looking for? Let me know if I can clear that up better.
Aaron
Thanks for the answer Aaron.
I'm unclear as to the full scope of "capture the things that it does". For example, if it takes two hits to a target to light the lock. Could I alter the programming so that it takes three hits instead, and then have it display a modified ball lock animation?
Quoted from fastpinball:I am thinking we should move questions like this to a new thread after I get these base details up on our website. That way everyone can get a quick primer on what its all about and then start to throw out more technical questions. I'll address what I think the solution would be here when we start that up. But its questions like this that I love, "how would I do this..."
Aaron
Okay, looking forward to your site as it gets updated. Though I think I'm getting the idea.
Basically, the Fast controller gives you access to all the assets in the machine (ie, mechs, sound roms, lights, switches, etc...) but does not allow you access to the original code nor does it allow you to download the game rom image from IPDB to use as a starting point.
So, if I were to get a generic board for my TOM, I would not have any game code or display images (if they reside in the original game rom) but I could access everything else.
Any game code I write can be distributed to friends as long as it is only manipulating the assets that are already in the machine, ie. not redistributing any original Williams IP.
Do I have it right now Rick and Aaron?
Quoted from Colehvac1:Why do you guys got to ruin everything For the rest of us!
Not trying to ruin, just trying to get a better understanding of what is and isn't possible from a homebrew perspective.
I am really looking forward to the "canned" products that hit the scene. Especially Funhouse 2.0!
Quoted from PPS:A totan 2.0 could use original code, sound, animations, or could have any portion of those be new or modified. We have original totan source code, etc. The major 'ways' to go on the code is either a complete re-write in a higher level languance -or- a modification of the existing code to add new features, etc. This likely would include some new sound calls and some additional dmd animations if a dmd game.
Again, for clarification, you have the rights to do this Rick, but I wouldn't have access to, or be able to legally modify the original code and animations (display) resources. With or without the Fast controller, correct?
But if I had a Totan 2.0 running on the Fast controller. I could use the tinker mode to extract outgoing signals and then add code to do something with the signals. For instance, I could detect a certain sound call-out and then write some code that would play my own sound bite instead of that one. Is that about right?
Quoted from PPS:But it would be cool if we could enable a platform that made it easy to do this (and wms was ok with it) without creating another wild west of all of these custom variations being set loose ... as it's a new world that just opened up I think we'll have to do a little pioneering with wms to see where the boundaries are ...
rick
Yes, therein lies the challenge and thanks for considering ways to push the boundaries.
On one hand, the enormity of re-writing a whole game from scratch is too big for all but a few and seems like such a waste of resources when all you want to do is make a few enhancements. Also seems like treating the existing code as a "black box" and trying to build on top of it might be limiting and cumbersome.
On the other hand, as much as we might like it, can we really expect open access to all the code and other resources? I certainly understand the rights holders and Williams being protective of their property. Especially when they are actively pursuing the business.
On the other other hand, CCC is a perfect example of what one person's passion can accomplish. I wonder if Eric would have ever even started the project if he had to get all the licensing, selling, maintenance and other stuff done.
Quoted from reltham:There seems to be a lot of fuss going on here over mostly nothing. This issue is very simple. There is no gray area.
If you are making something that will not redistribute someone else's IP, then you do not need to worry about anything. You are legally safe, and this applies across the board in everything, not just pinball games.
If you are making something that will be redistributing someone else's IP, then you need to get permission from the IP owner.
Thanks for the helpful description.
I think it would be great if someone came up with a non game specific interface board that piggy backed the original CPU board and allowed access to the assets on the game rom, just like the current solutions are allowing access to the sound ROMs.
Quoted from Sonny_Jim:It doesn't, the only thing that is distributed is the main game ROM on the CPU board. Nothing is changed with respect to sounds, only the order that they are called in.
Also bear in mind that Galoob and PPS can afford to defend their position, whereas I and many others can't afford to.
Does the main game ROM contain any of the original Williams code? If not, it seems like you would be fine.
Quoted from pzy:That falls under my "lack of common sense" statement. The code is 20 years old, and the company that wrote it hasn't built a pinball machine for 15 years. It should be free.
That would be nice, but I don't think Williams let PPS obtain the rights to their IP for free either, and PPS is getting a bunch of stuff produced under that licensing agreement. For which I'm very happy. 
How often do you get something for nothing?
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