(Topic ID: 86044)

WPC 2.0(tm) - Extensions to WPC 2.0 games (from TPF PPS seminar) ...


6 years ago

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#1 6 years ago

fyi ... wanted to post and so that we don't get this merging into the MMR threads, but we are working on a number of things around a WPC 2.0 platform - extending code and playfield extensions for WPC/WPC95 games.

Attached in the next post are the three slides that I did at the TPF PPS seminar over the weekend, and notably that we are setting up a working relationship with John Popadiuk on doing a 2.0 version of either TOTAN or CV in addition to FH with another party.

We have now the formal framework (as used with the Dutch Pinball for BOP 2.0) for creating variations of games, so now we can move forward with our idea of collaborating with hardware, software, and game designers to get some enhanced games out in the market.

New hardware WPC controller has been announced from FAST Pinball as well as MMR controller which will run various software stacks of the WPC 2.0 games - which can be either emulated 6809 code or run on newer platforms such as Python, etc.

There is a 'remake' track as well as a WPC 2.0 track ... and we are looking as well as a next stage of 'remake WPC 2.0' as well ...

#2 6 years ago


#9 6 years ago

both MMR and FAST use beaglebone black ... MMR in it's current incarnation has an I/O bus structure for the new hardware setup as opposed to the classic WPC95 boards. The FAST controller specifically is setup to interface to existing WPC/WPC95 boards (power driver, sound, dmd (or lcd), etc). But the upper level software can be leveraged between the two ...


#10 6 years ago

Also, for example with popadiuk, we are discussing a number of playfield features/extensions that he had for the games that got pulled out. We 'could' include those as playfield mods (similar to the saw blade on TOM), and insure that the software and rules are there as the John had envisioned.


#13 6 years ago

Funhouse 2.0 would be a DMD kit, as well as some rules upgrade, and possibly some playfield extensions ...


#16 6 years ago

The easy examples are the ones that got pulled out of the existing games (3rd magnet on TZ, rotating sawblade on TOM, etc) but could also be new features that either fit into the existing games either with or without rule extensions.

Hopefully we can get one or more designers to divulge some things that 'never were' as they are the best ones with the list of specific features that got removed ... but then do we want to share now?


#27 6 years ago

Wait until System 11 2.0 as well ... but that is for another thread ...


#32 6 years ago
Quoted from FrankJ:

Does Alice become a PPS machine?

no, this is only about existing WMS/BLY games and extending them ... no new games allowed, other than of course this hardware can certainly run new games. Fast Pinball guys are interested in all sorts of games running on their hardware, but that is kindof separate.


#34 6 years ago

We are just trying at PPS to leverage our own little corner of the pinball world of BLY/WMS stuff and extend, expand, remake, use, remake parts, create merchandise, etc, to to the best of what people want ... but we are more than happy to help others create their dreams using some of this stuff ...


#51 6 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

Very interesting.
I have a question. If you got a totan at home. And this software 2.0 is out.
What do i need to do to make it playable on my totan?
I geuss
1 buy the software
2 buy the fast controller.
Game on?
Or do i need to do/buy more?

You would buy the kit =
- software / license
- controller (Fast WPC controller)
- any specific playfield hardware (modifications, addons, etc)
- other (possibly speaker panel with new artwork, possibly new translite, etc)

#53 6 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

It is good news that PPS and Fastpin are now making replacement WPC CPU boards. As so many have become roached from bad hacks and alkaline damage over the years. It seems like there will be a market for them.

These are not exactly WPC CPU replacements, as you can get these today. These are CPU replacement for running new versions of the games, as well as extending the functionality (new sound, new display, other features) ...

#55 6 years ago

yes they can run original code, but they are overkill for just doing that ...

#57 6 years ago

depending on the particular way the hardware is utilized, they can either run callouts to the original sound cards and hence use the original sound system -or- all the way up to how we do it in MMR, which is to use original uncompressed sound files driven into a new sound amplifier. So, it would depend on that kit for each particular game (and if the original sound files are available, etc).

#60 6 years ago

With any of these systems there can be multiple game images that can be run (similar to booting one of a number of OS's on a computer), so yes, just about any of that can be done, not sure exactly what will be done as we are just starting up on this. So, you could have original MM, home MM, MM 2.0 and switch between them.


#92 6 years ago
Quoted from notaflyingtoy:

Interested in how far the license extends regarding artwork use and how that might be handled. i.e. DMD animations, new playfield parts, etc. Thanks.
Edit: wait a second. A new version of TOTAN or CV announced at TPF and no mention of this on Pinside til now!?

It can extend well into the artwork, I supposed depending on what the game needs ... we have now the rights to modify original artwork, etc ...


#95 6 years ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

Yeah, this is what baffled me most about this. Did nobody go to Rick's seminar?

To be fair, I think the audience was glued on MMR more so wanting to get the update, etc. So we did kinda sneak this in. It's better sometimes to be under the radar a little as we have a number of elements coming together. Having Popadiuk onboard to work with us on a game or two is great, and then we open up to any other projects using Python or other higher level development environments.


#103 6 years ago

We will have a way for people doing re-writes/extensions to get on board and have a vehicle to leverage the WMS IP (sound, dmd frames, artwork, as well if there are cases of parts that need to be customized we can help). In addition there will be some specific projects like working with John on CV/TOTAN which will be a little more of a collaborative effect.

We are still restricted on 3rd party stuff titles, but that is just a fact of life ...


#106 6 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

Where is that thread, I don't see it

There will be a FAST System 11 Controller as well, which will be a focused interface for that system. This is in the pipeline.


#107 6 years ago
Quoted from m00dawg:

As in a licensed title (e.g. STTNG, IJ)?

Yes, unless we can get something approved (but usually costs alot of $$$).


#108 6 years ago
Quoted from ecurtz:

Closed source is not the same as DRM "enabled". I couldn't care less if their emulator is closed source. However DRM says "our priorities are fundamentally different from those of hobbyists" to me. I'm sure there are other programmers who don't care at all.

I think there is a range of open development environment, and then if there is something using say WMS IP, then there need to be controls to insure no copyright infringement. It actually works the same way if someone in their garage creates their own game, they 'might' want to insure that it's not freely copied all over ...

But it can be open and it can be controlled depending on the situation ... surely this board will be available for anyone wanting to create their own games ... better a discussion with the Fast Pinball guys.


#131 6 years ago
Quoted from ecurtz:

two amazing projects that asked for forgiveness rather than permission

The idea was to have a solution which is open for custom projects and flexible where there is ip involved ... it really was not the focus but a great byproduct. Note that the forgiveness period is over as we have one or more hardware solutions with multiple software stacks coming out which will allow alot of great games to come out!


#143 6 years ago

yes, like an SDK with a Pinball API(tm) ... and the Fast hardware makes it super easy to get a game running with very little upfront work.


#160 6 years ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

Hey guys, interesting announcement. I would like to understand why a particular boardset is required for WPC 2.0. I'm not talking about full rewrites and extensions (similar to the CCC effort), which clearly need advanced hardware to support the major feature enhancements and advanced software toolsets to make the development less arduous than the original WPC frameworks. I'm talking about smaller enhancements like the aforementioned spinning tiger saw addition to ToM.
If PPS has worked out an arrangement with WMS to allow modifications to existing game software, those modifications will likely be done in the original code base, correct? Therefore, why can't they be run on original CPU boards?
It might seem counter-intuitive to hear me say this since I developed the P-ROC and co-developed the pyprocgame framework, but as a pinball consumer, I'd like to see game enhancements made available for original CPU boards. People shouldn't have to buy new hardware to get a working tiger-saw mech on an otherwise unchanged game. It seems like it would be in PPS's best interest as well (more potential upgraders/customers).
- Gerry

Gerry, we are talking about full re-writes as well as incrementals, leveraging additional features that we are making part of WPC 2.0. There will also be a number of code enhancments not part of WPC 2.0 which will run on existing CPU boards, but WPC 2.0 is extends far beyond that with new capabilities that require incremental hardware support and that is what WPC 2.0 encompasses ... stay tuned and you will learn more over time!


#175 6 years ago

We will answer more on WPC 2.0, but basically our focus is to leverage all that we have to help provide an upgrade experience for the WPC(WPC95) game owners, and will be focused there. We have access to both MMR software development as well as WMS IP (dmd frames, original sounds, colorized dmd, rgb support, shaker support, and many other things that we can integrate into extending the original game/theme, as well as additional game features which can marry with additional game rules to the original game, as well as original designers (like Popadiuk, etc) who we hope will jump in when possible, and there are a few other things. There are many current and planned things on the hardware side which will be coming out soon - we have at this time two 'streams' of development, one with Chicago Gaming and the other with Fast Pinball, possibly more later, but at this point that is a good start!

Anyone who is knee deep in either a re-write / extension who would benefit by some of the existing sound or dmd or art or other IP is a good candidate to discuss for this wpc 2.0 (or sys11 2.0) topic and best to contact Fast Pinball as a starting point ...


#192 6 years ago

Hopefully John can chime in as there are some 'interesting' features that he had envisioned that did not make in the games - not sure if he wants to share or create some mystery

#205 6 years ago

Of course WMS sounds, DMD frames, as well as artwork as well as game names (for most) are protected IP, not to be sold, given away, replicated, etc. We don't need any IP lawyers for this.

WPC 2.0(tm) games are what will fall under our license including the replication and/or modification of any or all of that for creating an extended game.

We will approve WPC 2.0 games and will sub-license them if appropriate, and will evaluate the entire package of needs. Now that we have a path for re-creation or extension of using WMS games, we will take a strong position on anything that goes a different route and uses wms ip in an unauthorized way especially given that we now have a way forward, sorry. We are licensees of rights holders and are now able to get things moving forward!

Also, someone brought up the topic of DRM, which basically says that the software is somehow linked to the hardware, so this is an important part of insuring that there are some controls in place - customers basically are buying one piece of hardware and one piece of software to remake a game, so this is an important consideration for WPC 2.0 games.

So, already had some discussions about getting some WPC 2.0 games going, so will take a little time to move to having some titles out, so stay tuned!


#207 6 years ago

The solutions that we approve will be with those who are constructing the solution and will encompase the entire solution to the customer, that is the case. Anyone that wants to put a legitimate solution proposal can always come to me as has already been done - which is with a proposal, how ip is being handled, etc. Fast hardware is not the solution, it's a piece of the solution where they are very receptive to addressing any of our concerns for ip protection when that protection is needed (which is not for custom games, one-offs, etc).


#210 6 years ago
Quoted from DarkWizard:

Anyone mention JM/Matrix yet? That would be a joygasm if you guys could work something out to bring those to the "masses"

When we are talking about yet another set of ip ( in this case Matrix), then it gets way more complicated as how you need to get permission (usually a license) from the owner of that IP - and usually these licenses are pretty expensive.

#211 6 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

So if I understand you correctly, if someone comes up with a project using Williams IP that is implemented with FAST pinball, P-Roc or whatever (and they want to sell or distribute it), they just need to take care of the licensing approval with you to make the project legit.
Is that right?

They need to make a proposal, insure that our considerations over IP protection are met, discuss the business arrangement, how it would be sold, distributed, and maintained, etc - i.e. be serious about it, and then we can discuss. It is not a 'given' that every proposal comes to an agreement.

#216 6 years ago

Gerry ... what I said is i will entertain any proposals. I will also email anyone I wish to. I also said I will entertain solutions not individual pieces, and those solutions will need to adequately address IP and business issues.


#218 6 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

Tinkering with a game is a none issue. That is what has been done in the past and still continues. The big thing that comes into play is if you want to sell what was created. Making something for you and your friends and family use in your home or show off at a show isn't what is in contention. In fact, its a great way to learn how to program for pinball.
But when you look at all the work it takes to make a game, the idea that there is a legitimate path towards selling your efforts by paying a fair licensing fee, then the effort could be really fruitful.

or give away or make available to others for free ...

#220 6 years ago

if someone secures the Warner license for Matrix ... we are more than happy to help with whatever we could contribute to make the game ...


#226 6 years ago
Quoted from ecurtz:

Don't use the name of a commercial game (these are usually trademarked) or audio files or dmd data from the ROMs of any commercial games (these are protected by copyright) and you'll be fine. Or if you want to add a DMD to Harley-Davidson (since BOP and Funhouse seem to be covered) submit a proposal for that. I personally don't see a lot of justification for rewriting code from scratch to support new modes or mods but maybe there are a few cases where that makes sense.

Correct ... now if we could get this internalized that would be great ... as there are a bunch of wms game names that are being thrown about being recoded - fine if you are working with us, not fine if you are not (then do above).


#227 6 years ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

I don't think you guys are on the same page here.
The guy who was giving it away for free.

Eric ... giving away the dmd and sound eproms was and is an issue, and a legal process would want you to go and try to claw back .... we've not had that conversation yet ...

#230 6 years ago

Because the dmd frames and the sound and other stuff is not anyone's to repackage and give away, free or not. Totally different. If you package the dracula IP and share it, then that's a problem. If you create all NEW sounds and all new art and all new stuff (or derivative stuff) and distribute it (for free or for charge) it's infringing.


#235 6 years ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

Rules aren't an issue. Only the display and audio have ever been a problem in this situation.

ok, so I'll bite ... sounds like CCC is only viable with the sounds and the dmd frames (as well as color frames) ... where did these come from and how does someone who downloads CCC today run a game?


#237 6 years ago

seems like the pm's on the various boards of people who download the CCC code and need to get the special incremental dmd and sound packages seem to get their needs addressed just fine ... just hope that doesn't get explored too deep.

#246 6 years ago

if you re-write a game, no issues (usually), if you modify the wms code, then issues.

And this applies to distributing (i.e. having the potential of another copy being made by anyone anyhow i.e. posting, putting on a wiki, etc) free or not doesn't make a difference.


#251 6 years ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

Nobody has been able to get CCC since December when you asked me to take down the Audio and DMD files from the wiki. You asked, I complied, it's still that way.

latest code was updated March 28,2014 ... sure seems to me that they can get it.


#257 6 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Let's say, I have Circus Voltaire 2.0. Will I be able to put it in tinker mode, then add rules to the existing ones, use existing sounds and DMD effects as a base to either make new ones or just to place in different places?
Once done, can I then share these changes with friends who also have Circus Voltaire 2.0 without infringing on Williams IP?
Edit: I guess Rosh and I are asking similar things.

If rules don't require any new WMS sounds or DMD frames, then sure, as it's only rule changes.

#287 6 years ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

Rick, please clarify this.
Are you stating as fact that a derivative work that makes use of only existing WMS sounds or DMD frames can be shared free and clear and is not subject to approvals?
Does it matter how those sounds and DMD frames are provided (either accessed through original ROMs or provided with the source distribution)? There are contradictory statements about this above.
Can you please provide documentation from Wms identifying these points?
- Gerry

Gerry ... as you clearly have an agenda ... I think best you go directly to wms and ask your questions ...

thanks, rick

#297 6 years ago
Quoted from ecurtz:

That wording was just added so they can imprison anyone who adds too many tacky mods to their TZ.


#303 6 years ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

I am just trying to get this straight.
So if say TOTAN 2.0 is done, it will be a complete rewrite. There will be no use of old code or modes or animations.

A WPC 2.0(tm) totan 2.0 could use original code, sound, animations, or could have any portion of those be new or modified. We have original totan source code, etc. The major 'ways' to go on the code is either a complete re-write in a higher level languance -or- a modification of the existing code to add new features, etc. This likely would include some new sound calls and some additional dmd animations if a dmd game.

#305 6 years ago

My guess is that you can do whatever you want on 'your' machine but you cannot cause it to be replicated without some type of permission. But it would be cool if we could enable a platform that made it easy to do this (and wms was ok with it) without creating another wild west of all of these custom variations being set loose ... as it's a new world that just opened up I think we'll have to do a little pioneering with wms to see where the boundaries are ...


#308 6 years ago

I think we will be working towards a way to get 'vetted' volunteers to help, but need to figure out how that could work. Original source code is more difficult than re-written stuff for a bunch of reasons ... but as per previous thread about wms code fixes, we are still working to get that going and I'm just getting all the pieces finally lined up on that.

The original wms code is really tricky and requires a complex debug environment to insure that timing issues are not introduced and if they are to debug them. In the 6809 world there are tight tolerances (even sometimes if they are running on a beaglebone) that has to be respected.


#312 6 years ago
Quoted from BrianMadden:

Ok, after reading through all these pages it seems like that it would be ok for someone to build new game code from scratch that did not use any of the original game's assets. (sound, DMD art, etc.) And it seems they would be allowed to sell that code and that it could be on any platform.

Pretty much true ... although you can't just re-create the sounds or dmd frames, they have to be different enough to not be derivative. And can't use the name, artwork, etc in any communication about it. So for people wanting to create a brand new game running on an existing one, that's not the focus of WPC 2.0(tm) - but the Fast WPC controller and other solutions can help people if the target machine (in this discussion) is a WPC or WPC95 machine.


#334 6 years ago

don't know what I'll do ... why do you care.

#411 6 years ago

Guys ... I will give you an idea of what does work pretty easily as an example - the Dutch Pinball guys came to me with a proposal - an overall solution for the customer - code, artwork, hardware, etc, all the pieces, how they want to price and then sell it, how they would like it sold, etc. Those were pretty simple conversations, and then we put an agreement together (which can now be duplicated) and the rest is history, so BOP 2.0 is now happening.

So, as all the posts have said, if you are not using (or contributing to people using) ANY wms IP, then do whatever you want however you want to, if you are using wms IP, then best to contact me to see if this falls into the 'we care' realm and then best to have an idea of what you would like done with it. And of course giving away or making available wms IP is just not going to fly now that we have opened up a door with wms to do it legitimately. I'm not sure when people are given a way to utilize wms ip, then the posts take a larger percentage of trying to figure a way around it, that was not the goal, but a way to create upgrades to games for people to enjoy.

SO, you have my phone number 408-891-7878 or email me at rick@planetarypinball.com so if you have any questions, please call and we can discuss.


#414 6 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

So, they were taking pre-orders at expo and you guys just worked out the agreement, so it took about 5 months and that was a 'simple' one. I'd hate to see how long a complex one will take
Sounds like you believe the next "simple" one will take less time. Time will tell.

lol ...

#415 6 years ago

what we have now is a template agreement which when we got that from wms on 3/14, it was just a matter of going thru that, making some final adjustments (which will make it much easier for the next time), and then we have the agreement with DP announced on 3/28 ... good try.

1 week later
#432 6 years ago

What we are doing is trying to encourage several tracks:

- Enhanced games running 6809 object code on your hardware (per Bug Fixes thread started months ago (ex: we have CC with enhancements (DMD frames, Code fixes, etc) that we will be testing and adding further things ... running on existing WPC hardware (not 2.0)

- WPC 2.0 Games which can be either 6809 Emulated Code -or- higher level language code which can use enhanced Audio, and DMD (color, etc), as well as playfield enhancements, etc.

The above variations 'can' run on MMR platform (it's running a beaglebone), or other platforms (like FAST, probably others, etc), but the result is updated games for existing games with existing hardware, as well as 2.0 games taking advantage of lots of new features and capabilities on more advanced hardware.


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