There seems to be a lot of fuss going on here over mostly nothing. This issue is very simple. There is no gray area.

If you are making something that will not redistribute someone else's IP, then you do not need to worry about anything. You are legally safe, and this applies across the board in everything, not just pinball games.

If you are making something that will be redistributing someone else's IP, then you need to get permission from the IP owner. It's a simple thing to understand, and again it applies to everything, not just pinball games.

PPS & FAST have worked out an agreement that offers people a path to use Williams/Bally IP in their pinball game designs. So if you want to redistribute Williams/Bally IP in your pinball game design, they have a path that is easy for you to take. It's not the only path, as evident by MMR and BOP2.

Again if what you are distributing is your own work and doesn't include anyone else's IP, then you are free to do whatever you want with it. Also, if you are not distributing anything, and just making alterations to a game you own, then you are safe and need not worry.

Several of the PROC folks are making some really great designs. Some are "re-themes" where they are making something new, not using existing Williams/Bally IP. Some could be classified as "2.0" games where they are using Williams/Bally IP. Most of them appear to be one-off designs they are doing for themselves. So they likely won't run into any problems since they aren't going to be distributing anything. If I'm wrong and they do wish to redistribute Williams/Bally IP, then they'll need to work out a deal with PPS and/or WMS. A few of them have much bigger IP issues to deal with than the Williams/Bally one (doing TV show or movie themes). I don't think any of them need to stop what they are doing. I really hope they don't, because it's very inspiring and awesome work.

I personally own 2 PROC boards, a bunch of driver boards, and 2 of Mark's System 11 "adapter" boards. I am using one setup in a High Speed machine in order to experiment while I develop my C/C++ framework for making pinball games (something akin to the python stuff they have already, but I not a python fan so...). I have several System 11 machines, so I'll use the other in one of those once I have my framework done to a level that I can make something worthwhile on it. I also made a small contribution to the PROC software to help it work with the PDLED boards.

I've also Helped Ben Heck with propeller code for the sound driver in AMH, and I am working with Parker (board (co)designer for PinHeck and designer of his own "Tommy" board) to make software for his board. I'll be helping Aaron with software for FAST as well.

I'm helping all of these folks because I think they are all doing great work to advance the pinball market. I see no reason to "pick sides". I'll continue to use and work with all of them as much as I am able.

FYI, I intend to have my C/C++ framework operate with PROC, FAST, Tommy, PinHeck, and any other hardware that comes along and allows it. It's intended to be at a higher level, and will interface with the various drivers for each piece of hardware. I also intend for it to be open source.

Anyway, this post help in some way...

I hope you are correct, but until I see PPS specifically address this then I will still have my concerns.

_{Post edited by Sonny_Jim: Remove nonsense}

Thanks for the helpful description.

I think it would be great if someone came up with a non game specific interface board that piggy backed the original CPU board and allowed access to the assets on the game rom, just like the current solutions are allowing access to the sound ROMs.

Sonny_Jim,
PPS doesn't get to decide what is your original IP and what is not. He can only identify your usage of Williams/Bally IP and attempt to protect that usage. If you are not using any Williams/Bally IP, then he can't pursue you legally on that front.

See this article on the derivative work topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work That holds more weight that anything PPS can say or do on the subject. Nothing against PPS here, just stating the legal facts that he must abide by just as you must.

Your concerns are addressed by the existing copyright and IP laws that apply to everything, not just pinball games with Williams/Bally IP.

Pinball Game Genie.

game_genie-jpg.jpg

Interesting read. Especially the part below that reminded me of CCC:

>>In Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc.,[12] the appellate court held that it was a fair use for owners of copies of video games, such as Super Mario Bros., to use Galoob's product the Game Genie to customize the difficulty or other characteristics of the game by granting a character more strength, speed, or endurance. Nintendo strongly opposed Galoob's product, allegedly because it interfered with the maintenance of the "Nintendo Culture," which Nintendo claimed was important to its marketing program.[13] The court held, among other things, that the fair use defense shielded Galoob's conduct. The court said that "a party who distributes a copyrighted work cannot dictate how that work is to be enjoyed. Consumers may use ... a Game Genie to enhance a Nintendo Game cartridge’s audiovisual display in such a way as to make the experience more enjoyable."

Get that Trademarked

I would feel a lot more comfortable if PPS could state whether they will pursue people who are producing software that uses the existing soundset, as this affects me directly. I edited out the 'derivative works' part of my message as I feel there's enough mud in the waters as it is.

Nintendo sued gamegenie and lost.

Their sounds are their sounds. If you used them and distributed it, I think that's use of their IP. Now, there's a very strong argument to be made for the fact that someone who uses your mod paid for and owns the machine, including all the dots and sounds contained therein. Your work distributes their sound but only does so to customers who already own (what is essentially a license to hear) those sounds. This is why this has always been confusing to me...

There's no grey area there, if you're distributing you're distributing, you can't make the "well they had it already" argument. But if you're only distributing code, no assets, and the code calls the assets that are already in the game, that's a different matter.

It doesn't, the only thing that is distributed is the main game ROM on the CPU board. Nothing is changed with respect to sounds, only the order that they are called in.

Also bear in mind that Galoob and PPS can afford to defend their position, whereas I and many others can't afford to.

dont know about everyone else but, im just happy that there will be bop 2.0, funhouse 2.0 and hopefully totan !

Does the main game ROM contain any of the original Williams code? If not, it seems like you would be fine.

All the ambiguity and lack of common sense in the law only serves to put money in the pockets of lawyers, generally ensuring the guy with the biggest wallet wins. Fuck free innovation!

The thing is, it's not really all that ambiguous most of the time. The example above, it's infringement, sorry. You cannot redistribute the main game ROM. You can write code that calls things on the ROM, and distribute that code, but the ROM itself contains data you don't have the rights to.

Your code could be on a daughter board that modified calls to the main ROM, which is essentially what a Game Genie does, and that would be fine. That's basically the same model that ColorDMD uses, they aren't distributing any of the dots for their titles, just codes that intercepts them mid stream and modifies them.

That falls under my "lack of common sense" statement. The code is 20 years old, and the company that wrote it hasn't built a pinball machine for 15 years. It should be free.

That would be nice, but I don't think Williams let PPS obtain the rights to their IP for free either, and PPS is getting a bunch of stuff produced under that licensing agreement. For which I'm very happy.

How often do you get something for nothing?

Often, called shareware. You see it alot with old games.

I think this is a bit childish from williams. They got out long ago, why not let the pincommunity go all out on their twenty year old pins?

As if they need those few grand for the licenses. Show some pinball love while building gamble machines.

I wish someone would have just leaked all the source code and let it be community driven.

Bingo.

Code or devices that modifies or interprets the stock implementation of the factory ROM on the fly (ColorDMD, or even Eli's Tron kit) or at startup (Game Genie) have been found to be legal in past cases. What isn't legal is distributing a modified ROM imaged produced by such devices... everyone needs to buy the device, not the modified game or code if they want the added benefits.

Why would PPS have anything to say about distributing something you create that contains none of their IP? It makes no difference what they say. These is the law. This type of stuff is silly.

The Williams pinball machines come with hardware, sound, software, etc. You didn't agree toy thing when you bought the machine in regards to how you will use it. You are able to call the unmodified assets in the game including switches, coils, sounds, etc. Those are part of the game. You are not allowed to distribute a rom with their sounds included or rip their sounds off the rom and distribute the on media. But if you allow their rom to be plugged in *as is* then you can do whatever you want with it.

Yeah that went away about the time pinball died in the 90s. When was the last time a major release wasn't a basic demo, and was a full fledged shareware release?

I think this is a bit childish from williams. They got out long ago, why not let the pincommunity go all out on their twenty year old pins?

1. Because they don't want to be associated with crappy code or machines done poorly
2. They don't have to and owe no favors to us

As if they need those few grand for the licenses. Show some pinball love while building gamble machines.

I don't think anyone but Rick and PPS know if it's a 'few grand' or substantially more but, The fact is they cost something, and Rick/PPS took the gamble to secure said licenses back in the dead era of pinball. The gamble has now begun to pay off and it's up to PPS to leverage their investment as they see fit.

I would contend that if the license was so cheap and easy to get, some hobbiest with a 'good heart' should have secured them back years ago and handed out all this work for free. I find it impossible to believe this would ever have happened.

It's interesting that hacks and upgrades of console games have been going on for many years, and are freely available on the web. Nintendo and others don't seem too concerned, and they even sell many of these games in their virtual arcade. Example:

http://www.romhacking.net/?page=hacks&game=729

These are more egregious than FreeWPC using existing sound assets on the board, as the hacks themselves often redistrubute bits of original game.

The community still fights about this a lot. The people who modify their games give away the patch that only has their additions to the source code. its up to the final end user to patch it themselves. So far nintendo has never said anything or done anything.

Its such a big change for me coming to pinball and the license is king, where as in the gaming world everyone pretty much says fuck the license, lets do this.

what about all of the NES / SNES and other customs hacks of games that are distributing IPS patches that you are to do to the roms on your own?

What if they put out an update that you need to patch to the wms rom files and burn your own rom chips?

"I think this is a bit childish from williams. They got out long ago, why not let the pincommunity go all out on their twenty year old pins?"

Because they stand to make some money from it. Probably more than you think...

Isn't it time for somebody to develop an add-on board for the P_ROC that tickles the exisiting WPC sound board to play the sounds you already have in the machine? So no distribution of IP. Wouldn't it be cool if said add-on board could also have a slot for a compact flash and trigger any sounds you happen to create yourself also?

Technically you might be right, but it's not as simple as saying there is no gray area or there is nothing to worry about. Even if you are 100% in the right, it doesn't stop WMS or PPS or someone else from suing you. It still can be costly and it's a gray enough are that it approachs the "of F-it, why bother" category. The last 15 years have shown plenty of examples of this in the copyright/IP world.

This is one of the things Gerry and others want clarity on (from what I can tell).

Is there any announcement on this site that ever stays positive?

That would be fine, PPS or Williams has no say over your code so long as it doesn't contain their IP. Assuming that there's nothing that violates the DMCA about the patch, I don't know if there's DRM involved here. Anyone who tried to set up a burning service for others would be running afoul of distributing IP they don't have the rights to though.

Sure, always a risk I suppose. Maybe you could get the EFF to take your side of the case. Rick clearly understands the boundaries here, I don't see frivolous lawsuits over non WMS IP being anything someone should be worried about. Frankly the audience for something like "download this code, rip your ROM, patch it, and burn a new one" is pretty limited.

This seems like a healthy discussion to me, but it's also bordering on paranoid. The lines are pretty clear here. You can't distribute WMS IP, but you can write original code that talks to WMS hardware. People can say "it's 20 year old code, it should be free!" but it's not, and anyone with even a little investment in the conversation knows it's not.

I love CCC, but it only survived by flying under the radar. Now there's big money involved, we are talking millions here, and everything that was underground is getting a spotlight.

What about them? Distributing hacked roms is illegal. The hack patches aren't on their own (presumably) but the distribution of the roms are.

What if they put out an update that you need to patch to the wms rom files and burn your own rom chips?

Who's 'they'? PPS can theoretically do whatever they want within the bounds of their agreement, everyone else cannot distribute WMS property in any form. As I mentioned above, there are examples of 'hacks' that are legal - ColorDMD being a great one. They distribute no IP, just a system that takes existing IP and interprets it.

Oh I agree, but there is always a first and I can understand why some people might not want to risk it.

For example, if someone did a ground-up CCC like rewrite to AFM that presented the game in a very negative light (pick whatever taboo topic you'd like), I could see WMS pitching a fit because AFM is a property they actively use on their slot machines.

It's illegal to distribute roms. Hacks alone aren't the issue as its no different than a overkill game genie.

As far as rom distribution goes, just because Nintendo doesn't sue every human being under the sun doesnt make it ok. In fact, Nintendo is one of the boldest on copyright infringement and have a history of filing suit against hacking and piracy groups. The problem in this modern age of the internet is the criminal is becoming more faceless every day. If I steal a candy bar from a store and don't get arrested, it's ok for everyone to do it? Two wrongs don't make a right.

This

You're just about wrong with everything you say here.

Well put. Your counter argument is convincing

Which part is wrong? That it's illegal to distribute ROM property you don't own? Or that patching or modding without distributing IP has been found legal in most cases?

Your point above:

is true and I agreed with it so I don't know why you're trying to argue. Modding and patching code is different than distributing modded or patched code. Nintendo (or anyone else) can't stop people modding their OWNED games - they lost the game genie lawsuit (rightly so imo) - but they CAN stop people copying and distributing games, ROMS, sounds, images, etc... modded or not.

If we were talking about a chip or board that interfaced with the WPC MPU to add custom features, sounds, etc... (ie Game Genie like features) there would be no issue here as the original IP is not distributed, simply modified by the end user. What people are asking for here is access to the actual WMS code, or modified WMS code. This is not going to happen for free, or on an uncontrolled 'free-for-all' scale.

Again I'll point out, PPS can afford legal representation, I cannot. Even if their case is completely bogus, I will have no way to fight it.

EFF? (not to be confused with EMF, they're unbelievable).

https://www.eff.org/pages/legal-assistance

I am positive and very excited. I am a TV repairman with a degree in software engineering. The idea of tinker mode sounds so freaking sweet. I could end up with one of these in every machine eventually. I am going to want to see it in action first though. The seeing it in action is what has held me back on colour DMD. Videos don't do it for me. Seeing the product could even get me doing pre-orders.

Oh man, if you have titles that have been colorized then don't wait, ColorDMD is a "can never go back" upgrade once you've got it in your game in full color.

Maybe. Been buying more titles. Maybe I will get to see one and it will click. I bought 2 mods that sucked so hard I did not install them this year. I really want to see stuff before I buy it. The pictures looked great but.......
STTNG could be in color, heck if I see one with HD upscaling, they could all become color (and I would have to delay whatever the next game to come home is)! I have been having a great pin year so far though. Nothing left yet and I acquired WW, FT and BSD.

Whoa! So unbelievable! Thanks for lightening the mood my friend!

Aaron

If you're not looking to spend $400 you can make a color kit yourself.

Hey Sonny, "Back in the Zone" is completely safe as written. I spent a lot of hours reading through your code when I was first stating writing mine, by the way. I had a few long conversations with Rick after I released "Demolition Time" and he was okay with my work. Your code, like mine, is written from scratch and has no williams code in it so they have no claim on your IP.

I also understand his position. He is the gatekeeper for the williams IP and if he is seen as not doing his part in protecting it, then williams may not be so hospitable in letting him do what he is doing. Neither "back in the zone" nor "demolition time" use any of williams IP so they are fine.

Now, having said that, there is another question that I think will come into play with this new system concerning the sound roms. Both of our codes reprogram the CPU chip, but use the original sound roms, legally, since they are on a different board which we do not touch. On the new hardware, I suspect that this will not be the case. If so, it would appear that if we used the original sounds we would have to do things much differently and probably work it in such a way that PPS has some control over what we do. Or we would have to create new custom sounds. Either way it is an additional hurdle.

My thoughts are that the fast pinball SDK better be really solid for me to want to switch if they are going to put up barriers to the way I write code.

From what I understand in the thread so far, it sounds like the FAST board can interface with the original A/V board for the sounds, so it should be the same situation as FreeWPC in that regard.

Ditto

The FAST WPC Controller allows the playing of the original sounds. Super easy.

We are doing a meet-up this morning in Tacoma at fablabtacoma.com to give some people a hands on experience of how the hardware works. Off to pickup coffee and doughnuts for it!

Aaron

with this board, possible to have special sound from addams family pinball 20th:

or

Wait, there's a TechShop equivalent in Tacoma that's been open for a year? Nobody ever tells me anything.

Yep. Ecurtz are you local? Do we know each other?

Aaron