Quick note: To all those sending PMs... THANK YOU!

Working as fast as we can to get through them. Thank you for sharing in the excitement and your support and enthusiasm means a lot!

Aaron

CV rom 2.0 is cool but TOTAN can use some work also need a combo plunger

Is Fast Pinball now the licenser for WMS\BLY DMD artwork and sound?

Do we have any IP lawyers in the house? It would seem to me that playing sounds or DMD animations that are on a chip that you own with a different device would not violate any copyrights as you are not distributing the works. When you buy a CD, you don't buy one that only works on Sony devices. It would violate copyright to copy and sell the CD, but not to build a new device to play it in a different way.

Did these questions ever get answered?

DRM doesn't have to be both Hardware and Software. It could very easily be one or the other. So you could still protect WMS IP using Software Only DRM which could be hardware independent.

I think what some are worried about is that currently the impression you are giving is that ONLY FAST Pinball based hardware would be capable of WPC 2.0 support from PPS. Leaving PROC based projects such as BOP 2.0 & CCC, the two very things that basically created the interest in this being done in the first place, with the prospect of porting something to the new system in order to proceed down an approved path.

Is this the case?

Anyone mention JM/Matrix yet? That would be a joygasm if you guys could work something out to bring those to the "masses"

So if I understand you correctly, if someone comes up with a project using Williams IP that is implemented with FAST pinball, P-Roc or whatever (and they want to sell or distribute it), they just need to take care of the licensing approval with you to make the project legit.

Is that right?

So you're saying you can't do some 3rd party things, but you borrowed a Dracula for the show. Does this mean that you can modify the code on 3rd party games, but not do the art changes and add-ons that you've talked about for some games? Hopefully it doesn't mean you can't touch licensed themes at all.

It seems to me that there is a lot of gray area as to when a P-ROC\FAST game would cross the derivative work line.

Since no one in the pinball community would likely have the desire (and funds) to see a legal battle through to the end, we'll probably never know. Hopefully everything will shake out for the betterment of the community.

Rick,

Since it's now clear that P-ROC users can work with you on licensing P-ROC - based projects that utilize Wms assets, and given that at least one P-ROC - based project has already received approval, I'd appreciate it if you would stop emailing P-ROC customers and suggesting they work with FAST. I'm sure many would be happy to work with you on licensing deals if the process was friendly.

As Aaron requested, let's let our respective products speak for themselves.

Thanks.
- Gerry
http://www.multimorphic.com

Tinkering with a game is a none issue. That is what has been done in the past and still continues. The big thing that comes into play is if you want to sell what was created. Making something for you and your friends and family use in your home or show off at a show isn't what is in contention. In fact, its a great way to learn how to program for pinball.

But when you look at all the work it takes to make a game, the idea that there is a legitimate path towards selling your efforts by paying a fair licensing fee, then the effort could be really fruitful.

Aaron

If I understand you right. I could purchase one of your systems for my Dracula, but it wouldn't have any 2.0 style code/extensions, but I could then make my own changes for my own use?

It might be worth the effort, I am sure alot of people would be interested in dropping cash on that, myself included, judging by the Matrix thread. Just thought I would put the bug in your ear. I understand its just a pipe dream (for me). I can't afford the entry fee for the current solution. 8k though, that I could make happen.

Gerry,

I think that Rick only means to answer the question about what is the currently approved way to get a game released using existing PPS licensed IP.

But I gotta say, you can see how your comments about us cloning your stuff and that you are the reason for the interest in rethemes and extensions rubbed us the wrong way. Our goals were different than yours. We built a hardware platform that will enable us to build upon for our bigger goals. Lots of phones existed before the iPhone, but they were the first to bring it all together right. For the customer to use and have access to new things and for developers to innovate upon. We listened to the needs of the builder community, the IP holders and those that would love to build their first game and focused on meeting those needs. We want that engagement. It helps to shape our hardware. Our efforts created a legitimate path to working with existing IP that you feel you should benefit from as well. We provided a solution that was able to break down that wall. Our goals are to enable not only game designers and software programmers, but also hardware engineers. Those details will be unveiled soon and we hope they will really kick new pinball development into high gear.

So who is hoping to benefit from who's effort now?

Aaron

_{Post edited by fastpinball: "Those details will be unveiled soon we hope they will really kick new pinball development into high gear." was missing an "and"}

Right. You could drop it in and start to build away at what, someday, could be a new Dracula "2.0"

And also like Rick said above, "or give away or make available to others for free ..." to others who you want to share in your efforts.

Aaron

Don't use the name of a commercial game (these are usually trademarked) or audio files or dmd data from the ROMs of any commercial games (these are protected by copyright) and you'll be fine. Or if you want to add a DMD to Harley-Davidson (since BOP and Funhouse seem to be covered) submit a proposal for that. I personally don't see a lot of justification for rewriting code from scratch to support new modes or mods but maybe there are a few cases where that makes sense.

Thanks for the response Rick.

It sounds like the ability to enhance existing games will be nice but that it really isn't intended for the casual hobbyist who wants to just add cool things to a game and share it with the community without the added complication of sales, required maintenance, IP protection, etc...

Is this correct?

Or, do you think it will be possible to do some things, such as rule enhancements or adding triggers for mods, for example, without the need for licensing approval?

I don't think you guys are on the same page here.

Signed,
The guy who was giving it away for free.

I didn't give away any eproms, those are available for free on IPDB, VPforums, etc. I gave away reproductions that looked/sounded like the original - but that's a quibble.

What I was pointing out is that you tried to add "giving it away free" as something you SHOULDN'T do, but Aaron seemed to be tacking it on as something you COULD.

My thoughts exactly!

How is what Eric did any different than say me using a Fast board on a Dracula to improve the code, DMD, Sounds, whatever, and then giving that away for free (Other then you making a profit off of the Fast board)?

Well that contradicts what Aaron just said in his last post.

If you're not redistributing the audio and DMD data, I don't see how using a different tool to play them would be infringement. This is where things seem awfully gray to me. If someone rewrites the rules to a game in a different language, it would seem like a new work to me. (This happens all the time with mobile apps.) I could see an argument being made as a derivative work, but that would definitely require a legal battle.

The upcoming Supreme Court ruling on software patent trolling, while not directly applicable, will certainly give some insight as to which way the courts will be leaning with regards to software IP.

_{Post edited by pinlynx: Clarity}

Rules aren't an issue. Only the display and audio have ever been a problem in this situation.

Right, and the display and audio are stored on the game. It sounds like PPS is saying you can only view or listen to those files with his hardware.

Nobody has been able to get CCC since December when you asked me to take down the Audio and DMD files from the wiki. You asked, I complied, it's still that way.

I dont think it does. If you put the FAST WPC Controller hardware into your WPC game, you get access to all the sound, etc. that are already in the game. So if you wrote original code to interact with your Dracula and shared that original code with a friend who ran it on a FAST WPC Controller in his/her Dracula, then you didn't distribute any of the DMD frames or audio, just what you created to work with it.

Aaron

So the FAST system plays audio directly from the WPC ROM? If so, that's slick.

There's no "etc" there. Just the sound. The DMD info is on the CPU you take out to put the FAST board in. Same deal as FreeWPC games.

Totally does! That first night we fired up the hardware and got the switches playing different sounds or lighting different lamps was on par with the birth of my first child! Ok, maybe not that great, but it was pretty damn exciting to say the least. Is there anyone on this thread that got to see that in person in Texas?

Aaron

Will these be able to be changed around? IE. I buy one for my Dracula. Can I try it in my other WPC games to see which other machines I want a Fast board installed into? Or will it be married to the game I buy it for. That would be really cool if it was like color DMD and I could just move it around (re-flashing the board) to see which machines I would like to put it and which ones are good enough.

Thanks for pointing that out. I had intended that to mean like audio resources in general. The event triggered sounds, music, the sound that can be blended, the sound that interrupts other sound.

Aaron

Will you be at Pinfest Allentown? I have a mint Drac I might be willing to bring for you to demo this technology. It would be really great for the show itself in may. PM me if you want to chat!

I'm confused. I thought Rick was saying that if you make any changes (including additions) to existing Williams code it would infringe on their IP. In your example, you might not be messing with the sound roms but you would be making changes to the game code in regards to rules and sound calls.

Rick, any clarification here?

If you bought the stand alone hardware that didnt have a "2.0" game running on it, you totally could. Try it in each machine and code away.

If you bought "Dracula 2.0" as a released game, it and any released game can be switched into "tinker" mode. So when talking about the Popadiuk games mentioned at the show, if you bought one of those you could:

a) run the new code (enhanced mode)
b) play the original roms (classic mode)
c) write some code of your own for the game (tinker mode)

So if you took the hardware you bought for you Circus Voltaire 2.0 and put it into a Dracula cabinet, the only option that would be useful in that case would be the "tinker mode."

This was an important part of our negotiations with PPS. We feel like its a cool way to let users begin to experiment with programming because they can with hardware they bought for their enhanced game. It is such a great learning opportunity.

Aaron

Only person that can modify the WMS code would be them, or you (since you have the source). What you mean here is modify/use the assets.

Think of it as a blank slate to start programming on when you are using the FAST WPC Controller. We have worked into our FAST Pin Protocol / Pinball API easy commands to call out to the existing sound board and its audio. So it is not as if you are manipulating the code currently running on the game, just interfacing with the assets.

Aaron

I'm sure they were carefully extracted by each end-user from their own personal ROMs. Just as I'm sure the emulator used in your Medieval Madness remakes was implemented entirely by "clean room" engineers who had never been exposed to any PinMAME code.