Did you get your beer?

Totally. As a community, we can all challenge each other in a positive way and see what can be created. I cant wait to see more new customs at shows. Seeing what Gerry had at the Chicago Expo with the line-up of customs was so exciting. Our whole goal was to get a platform in place that got game developers focused on the code and the playfield as fast (ha!) as possible so we can all enjoy the fun part of making pinball games.

Aaron

Gee, I thought you were all about building your own hardware/electronics?

I am, but I figured I would toss that out there.

Saying this is probably going to get me the "dick of the day" award, but the only way I'm willing to invest the time into someone else's controller ecosystem is if they donate the controller to me.

Otherwise, I'm actually very excited to roll my own. I've already been designing the boards for them.

I'm at the step in the project where I need to get the actual power supply built and implemented so I can move on to more aggressive testing/build.

I always thought TZ could use a super wizard mode by actually defeating all the modes, making all the jackpots, etc. replacing useless 10 million door panel with Kick the can mode or Shatner airplane mode.

Hey guys, interesting announcement. I would like to understand why a particular boardset is required for WPC 2.0. I'm not talking about full rewrites and extensions (similar to the CCC effort), which clearly need advanced hardware to support the major feature enhancements and advanced software toolsets to make the development less arduous than the original WPC frameworks. I'm talking about smaller enhancements like the aforementioned spinning tiger saw addition to ToM.

If PPS has worked out an arrangement with WMS to allow modifications to existing game software, those modifications will likely be done in the original code base, correct? Therefore, why can't they be run on original CPU boards?

It might seem counter-intuitive to hear me say this since I developed the P-ROC and co-developed the pyprocgame framework, but as a pinball consumer, I'd like to see game enhancements made available for original CPU boards. People shouldn't have to buy new hardware to get a working tiger-saw mech on an otherwise unchanged game. It seems like it would be in PPS's best interest as well (more potential upgraders/customers).

- Gerry
http://www.multimorphic.com

Do you need a WPC2.0 /and/ a new driver board for WPC rethemes, as pictured for MMr? That seems over the top since the WPC-89 and newer are more than adequate. Replacing the sys11 driver board is a necessity since the MPU and driver board are the same board on that architecture, but just trying to understand what's needed for WPC-AlphaNumeric through WPC-95.

Funny every time I see it. Man, I love those shirts...

LOL Come to think of it, no! But they did pay for the pizza when we were out at their shop, so I say we are square.

Aaron

Haha, I've never given a second thought to it, until I saw your shirts. Now I'm gonna use it all the time on pinside.

So my existing pins are the groundwork for another generation/level of new pinball.

So although I should be selling off a few pins to help finance my MMR.

I can't because the pins I own are going to the next level.

I'm going to need some therapy

I tend to describe it as a process of bolting microchips to a steam engine. We want to bring a new, modern platform to pinball that makes it easier to introduce new technologies to traditional pinball. The toys, for example, are meant to be added in as part of the WPC 2.0 offering because we want to do more than just tack on some modes and different rule sets. Our goal with the WPC 2.0 efforts is to work with the original designers as much as possible to enrich the game and add in things that got cut. Whether be because of technology limitations or time/budget limitations. That goal is less about the hardware used to drive toys, but rather the delivery of an enhanced experience which may also include toys.

Another thing that is worth throwing out to this thread (while we are getting our site up) is a little bit about where the FAST Pinball WPC Controller came from. Our primary objective was to provide a platform for game designers to build on and invest in for the long term. This platform needed to be flexible enough for anyone using any programming language to use. It also needs to have the kind of protection the IP holders and same game designers have asked for. Nobody loves "DRM" we all know that. But we also know that these are factors. I was blown away by the hardwork put into games like Cactus Canyon Continued so we worked hard with PPS to develop a platform that enabled Rick to get the permission he needed to allow games like that to be released, with proper licensing.

But the key point to note here and I don't think we have said this here: If you are working on a unique title you do not need to use any of the DRM options and can share your code with anyone you like. We have libraries and frameworks underway and have been flooded with interest to participate. Our goal with the hardware was to be a solid foundation that can take you from a tinkering with a WPC (or ok, soon a System 11 game, seems that cat is out of the bag at this point), to taking your code to a custom game and eventually a commercial release should you want to.

The FAST Pinball WPC Controller is just one form factor. We have created it to be easy to drop write into a WPC game. In 2 hours while on the show floor on a borrowed Dracula, we had full control of the game. Native audio, all switches, lights, coils, etc. By tailoring the hardware for that era of games, the software interface was exactly the same as we expected.

There is more hardware to unveil. We were caught a little off guard by how quickly this caught on. As we unveil the rest, the overall strategy will definitely make much more sense.

Aaron

We leverage all the existing hardware in your WPC game. All eras of WPC. From Alphanumeric through WPC-95. So if you wanted to program for your own WPC game, you would just pull the CPU board and drop in our $300 FAST Pinball WPC Controller.

You totally nailed it for the System 11 needs. We are finalizing the way we plan to interface with the System 11 games and will be sharing that over the next week or two.

The enthusiasm over the the FAST Pinball System 11 Controller has us seriously considering taking pre-orders to expedite its release. To gauge interest, anyone interested in a pre-order for a FAST Pinball System 11 Controller can send me a PM. Talk about exciting!

This is going to be a very fun year for pinball... and the next year... and the next... and the...

Aaron

I dont think you already know how much this package will cost, but is this 500 euro stuff? Or more like 2k euro? Can you give some indication?

(If its not to much a whole range of old pins start to look interesting again for 1 pin home owners, totan with an awsome rulseset is top 10 material instantly)

The only pricing we have dialed in at the moment is the FAST Pinball WPC Controller for you to drop into your existing WPC game and take control. This is going to be $300 w/o the BeagleBone Black. We are working to order them in bulk and offer them as a bundled option on order. Otherwise, its $45 from most shops online for the BeagleBone Black.

Aaron

RGB LED Control is also native on the FAST Pinball WPC Controller. We had the extra space on the board so we threw it on there. Super fun way to easily add some flair to your WPC game.

Aaron

So the board has native control without the computer for routing switches to coils and some sort of light control? Does it also provide a way for events to trigger? For example, can I run the original code and at the same time my own code on top of it gets event triggers for switches, lamps, flashers? What about triggers for specific video and sound samples? These things make adjusting existing code without a full rewrite much easier.

Running original and running new are certainly easier. What we are working on is a streamlined way to capture the event triggers and do new things with them. For example, capturing a request to play a sound and play an alternate sound or capturing a lamp light and do something else are simpler examples of what can be done. We want to really dial this stuff in so that the user can take advantage of the events and not struggle with figuring out how to capture them.

Aaron

It sounds like it has potential, but also sounds like it might only be some high level modifications. So far i'm picturing a generic GUI where users can set values for scores, light flashing sequences, and audio swapping a bit.

I'm not seeing the whole picture yet, but it's going to be cool to see exactly how it opens up the code.

I don't think this will be GUI for end users but instead events driven for new code to receive triggers.

Real Funhouse clock. That's all I have to say.

Plans sound like fun to me!
Do you plan on producing a FAST pinball system 11 controller on one pcb to replace the original MPU, or just like with P-ROC like one PROC controller and one PROC-to-system-11-driverboard like used in i.e. the F14, Road Kings and Earth Shaker projects? (Or in your case: a FAST controller and a FAST-to-system-11-driverboard)? Can you shed a light on what will be the differences with P-ROC?

I share the questions Gerry is questioning about WPC2.0 and I'm not sure I understand the answer (though it's good that you're answering), but I'm sure we'll find out the details someday and we'll see how things will develop. I'm curious to see if it's 'just' a P-ROC competitor (which isn't a bad thing) or has more to offer (which I can't see yet, but I'm sure will figure out once there are more details).

Anyway, it's nice to see this: curious what new developments/games it will bring!

Bring on CV 2.0

Question about the Dracula at the show: was this also rewritten?

Cactus Canyon Continued would be epic with a color DMD and high quality sounds!

CCC already runs with color. Man.

Lets get color on MM first.

Gerry,

What is this post on your forum all about? http://www.pinballcontrollers.com/forum/index.php?topic=1145.0

"and it's obvious the FAST implementation is mostly just a clone of the 5 year old P-ROC anyway"

I really don't know how you could say that. You never came by the booth in Texas to see what we were working on. Some of your friends did, but we never saw you. I came to your booth as soon as I could away (even waited in line) to play your game because I think your work is really great. It is going a direction that we are not and regardless of whether we compete or not, I am stoked for what you are doing.

We are not P-ROC users. We don't own P-ROC hardware and have never used it. We started our hardware journey less than a year ago with a mission to create something cool for pinball. Let users explore, build and commercially release. To build a platform for game companies to invest in. The community, pinball fans who would love to create games and havent yet, even PPS, were quick to engage and give feedback and feature requests and it has been a lot of fun. But when I see posts like yours which I mentioned here, it's a bummer. I respect you as an engineer and I hope that we can let our respective hard work speak for itself.

Let's keep the excitement about what is developing in pinball going and not let the momentum be stalled by "us vs. them" battles. If Multimorphic and FAST Pinball work as hard as we can on our respective offerings, the true winners are the pinball lovers who get to create great things and get to play with and experience the creations of others. And that is a great thing.

Aaron

_{Post edited by fastpinball: "in Texas" sounds better than "at Texas" and "uses" should have been "users"}

Clone is certainly a poor choice of words on Gerry's part, but can you elaborate on ways the Fast board is functionally different from a P-ROC installed in a WPC machine?

I am putting together information about our mission, hardware, etc. for our fastpinball.com website. I hope to have that up later today.

I can't speak to how our hardware is different than P-ROC because we aren't P-ROC users. Instead, I will need to focus on describing our hardware platform and it's goals and let the community comment on the differences and similarities.

The FAST WPC Controller is just one of the hardware form factors and was created specifically for use with the WPC platform and for delivering the WPC 2.0 games. I hope that the information we will be sharing in the coming weeks leading up to the formal unveiling of our platform will give everyone a better idea of where we are taking things and how our mission is different from that of Multimorphic.

I'll be sure to update this thread as we get more info onto our website as well.

Aaron

Yep. My point is integration with a possible future Cactus Canyon 2.0 (unless PPS officially recognized yours as CC 2.0 like they did with Dutch Pinball's Bride of Pinbot)

Will wait to see the information but at this point feels a little like VHS or Beta.

Hi Aaron,

This is a thread about FAST and WPC 2.0. I respect that and don't want to get into an argument here (or anywhere really). I am a straight shooter, and I'm protective of my boards, my company, and the community of P-ROC users. I will address your specific points here. If you (or anybody) wants to discuss my opinions about what's happening, you can email me, or we can start a new thread about it (either here or at www.pinballcontrollers.com/forum). Perhaps a separate thread discussing the differences between our products and your products is merited too.

Correct, I didn't come by your booth, but you did see me. We talked for maybe 20 minutes on Saturday near the Marco booth where you told me all about your products and plans.

Understood, but that doesn't mean you don't know about P-ROC and how your stated business goals and products mirror ours. If you recall, I reached out to you first and on multiple occasions. I emailed you before the Seattle show last year and got no response. I then visited you at your booth (you admitted receiving the email and not replying), and discussed your products for nearly 30 minutes. We talked about the overlap in our products and visions, which were uncannily similar. We discussed the details of your driver boards and switch boards and the advantages/disadvantages relative to ours. At that point the P-ROC had been shipping for nearly 4 years and the PDBs (our driver boards) for two years.

I've always encouraged and supported development in pinball technologies. I've even offered advice to people building their own control systems and machines. Aaron, you're free to develop whatever products you want, within legal limits of course. Ethical limits are for you to evaluate. I'm just extremely disappointed you decided to recreate all of the functionality we've been creating over the past 5 years in a nearly identical form factor and not give any architectural or feature credit to us. To claim ignorance is disingenuous at best.

OK... back on topic. Can somebody please explain to me why a license to develop WPC 2.0 software is restricted to a particular hardware implementation? Rick, can you please describe what the relationship is between 'approved' software products that make use of Wms IP and the FAST hardware? In other words, why are you implying that projects built on P-ROC hardware cannot be approved, or can they?

I asked a similar set of questions here: http://www.pinballcontrollers.com/forum/index.php?topic=1145.msg10030#msg10030

- Gerry
http://www.multimorphic.com

Hi Gerry,

Our FAST WPC Controller was designed based on what would be the best hardware solution to deliver our platform in a WPC machine, not on a P-ROC that plugs in a similar way. This was probably also where you started. For us to design a board that was meant to be a drop in replacement to a WPC CPU board and base it off someone else's board meant to do the same would have been foolish. The form factor you chose was likely the result of wanting to make sure that the wiring of the existing hardware could plug in easily, as did we. We chose to match the footprint so we could use the existing mounts and add new features to board using the increased PCB space. Things like direct control of RGB LEDs, seating of the BeagleBone Black directly on the board, etc.

I think its weird that you cannot fathom that another group could build hardware for pinball. You are not the gatekeeper of what happens in the world of pinball hardware. Your designs were meant to piggy back of the work of all the other engineers that designed all that other pinball hardware in the first place. I cant stop you from drawing your own conclusions on what you see us doing, but I really don't like having our integrity questioned based on a bunch of assumptions you have made.

We are not the only people creating new pinball hardware. Are you also digging into Ben Heck?

Aaron

Hey Gerry, does P-ROC have support for DRM?

I personally find all of this PROC vs. FAST business really confusing. I like the idea of a separate thread which describes the basic design and functions of these two products and some civil discussions about their relative merits from the developers.

Aaron,

If you read back through my post, you'll see I only stated facts. You're making assumptions about my motivations and putting words into my mouth, many of which carry the opposite meaning of what I actually said.

I'm a technology guy, and my main goal in the last 5 years has been to move the pinball industry forward. In my opinion, we should be figuring out ways to work together to move the industry forward, not designing very similar products and starting a format war. This industry is too small to fragment custom development into factions.

I spend most of my waking hours developing our products and our business and supporting the customers that use them. That's what I love to do, and that's what I will continue doing.

Feel free to have the last word. If you'd like to continue this discussion privately, please email or PM me.

- Gerry
http://www.multimorphic.com

Competition is good.

Good call. Let's get back to talking about how rad WPC 2.0 games like Circus Voltaire and Tales of the Arabian Nights can be and how rad that John Popadiuk is going to be involved!

Aaron

Come on JPOP, let us have it!

It's rad that John P. is involved but if I was a RAZA, Magic Girl or Alice pre-orderer I'd be worried that the man is stretching himself too thin. That's a lot of projects to be working on at once!

It sure is.

But I'd rather see COMPLEMENTARY products that work with each other from different manufacturers.

Example: I like how the different brand Gotlieb replacement boards use the same ribbon cable pinout.

This allows you to use the original Gotlieb edge connector, or a much better standard IDE ribbon cable across CPU and driver boards from several different aftermarket companies.

Hey Rick -

Will you approve non-FAST based WMS extensions or does FAST have an exclusive? I've been thinking about putting my programming skills into a PROC, but want to pick the right ecosystem.

Cheers

JM needs a new translite.

I doubt you'll ever see an official one, it's a licensed property. One cool thing about this 2.0 stuff is it's giving new life to the old original themes.

Too bad the JM movie sucked, the original story is great.

Yeah, I posted that and then the answer was on the next page. Bummer.

It is when there is enough demand to support it. If the demand is low though, one company barely sustaining in the market for example, competition could be enough for both to die. Not saying that's the case here but it could be.

Proc is run by a computer or beaglebone black (we will call that the computer too). The computer can support drm just fine. The drm can be managed at different levels in the stack. The difference here is probably that the team at fast probably already implemented some drm method and got it approved where the proc folks would have to provide some library to claim the same. Or each developer would have to implement their own drm and get it approved. The bop2.0 website still claims proc. So if there's drm concerns there, it must have been approved.