Agreed. At that level of enterprise, they have things like intellectual property rights, copyrights, exclusivity deals, and whatever else they have their lawyers work on to protect them.

At this level of modding, it is just seems like a crappy thing to do in my opinion.

Gotcha covered:

The good news is Steve will be making more witch red smoke mods.
The bad news, you can buy a knock off if you dont want to wait for the original work of art.
I personally thought it was a crappy thing for Harry to do. He should have at least emailed and discussed it with steve.

And it's not like there aren't 100s of other mods for newly released machines he could think up that have the potential for a LOT more sales since the machines are new and buyers are more active. I mean, if he bought or had access to an Elvira LE, he'd have that market to himself for a month or more since most modders only work from the Pro. LOTS of mod targets on that machine...

I'm just wondering if you think Steve discussed adding the castle "well" to his mod with the modfather?

Here's 2015 the modfather posting about his witch well and castle walls: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/woz-witchs-well-and-walls-now-available

Here's 2017 when Steve added the well to his mod, which didn't initially have it: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/woz-witch-red-smoke-mod/page/5#post-3538147

So did Steve knock off Modfather's mod?

Or maybe Modfather knocked off the well from 5 years ago when steigerpijp made the well piece first, it seems, to add on to the Modfather castle walls: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/mods-in-order-of-preferenceimportance#post-1913254

Or did Backalley Creations knock off the Modfather walls or Tmezel?

I don't know... seems like this same discussion was had over the past 6 years: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/back-alley-woz-mods-for-sale#post-1335839

Or wait, did Steve copy sillyoldelf idea to make a new witch? Because this new witch thread by sillyoldelf was posted 3 months before Steve started this thread: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wizard-of-oz-wicked-witch-super-model-mod-makeover

And it so happens that we have partnered with sillyoldelf to provide his witch with our mod. So does that mean Steve is copying the witch we are using?

If you all think somehow Steve invented this idea and nothing existed before this you should all do some research and get off your high horse about the "original" witch mod.

To answer your questions, I do not think Steve knocked off Modfather's mod. And for that matter, I don't think Steve, nor anyone else holds any proprietary right to modified witches by virtue of having done something first. I also do not think I am on a high horse for having the opinion that making a re-cast of someone else's work is above and beyond what I personally consider fair play in this mod world.

...not that I'm saying you actually re-cast it. But in my opinion, if the goal was to actually duplicate it exactly, I don't think it could have been done any closer to Steve's witch than the photos suggest.

I do hope the talent demonstrated with this recreation is directed in more original ways in the future. It would be great for the whole community. But that's just my opinion and I wish you well.

I understand the viewpoints presented here about originality here and keep coming back to the thought that we’re splitting hairs when virtually EVERYONE making a witch mod is designing and mass producing a well known character from a movie. None of them are truly original works. It’s not like Steve or Harry or anyone else made up the witch character. If they had, it would be a different story, but they didn’t. I do agree that if anyone is going to make a mod that is super similar to one already being made/been made that a courtesy call before investing in design and production is the friendly thing to do. Otherwise, it seems obvious that you should expect possible backlash/hard feelings from at least some angles, especially when a previous modder has a loyal following.

Just out of curiosity, how would one make a witch mod for WOZ that doesnt follow the basic design that was created by JJP? Since the witch goes up and down and stays in that same spot, I dont think theres a lot of options.

I'm not the creative type, but a more realistic looking face might be good and truer to the original design of the pin. Or maybe a witch that was posed in a very different way than the pose Steve used? Or some ball protector that doesn't remind me of the JJP tube nor the shape of Steve's clever smoke work-around (maybe like something that plays off of the castle theme, like a castle grate or something). Even better, how about some cool contraption that looks like she's actually melting and not merely lowering into a hole in the playfield? I think there are some good options. Just thinking out loud though. I haven't given it much thought.

No, I like the ideas. Im not creative at all so was honestly curious. I believe the other witch mod does use a different pose. I know others dont agree, but the other mod looks different to me. I think maybe he changed the design after the backlash?

Did everyone miss the part where I said we are licensing the sillyoldelf witch which pre-dates Steve's witch? I mean, how much less of a copy do you want? It. Pre-dates. Steve's.

In the movie the wicked witch appears in red smoke, disappears in red smoke and flames and melts in white "steam"... I don't think you have many options when it comes to a creative concept of the witch going "up and down" if you are trying to hold true to the movie, which is generally my goal when creating mods.

We could have designed different "smoke", but we didn't. If you want a red smoke mod only one exists. We could have had just a red, translucent option, for the flames, we don't. Could have just used the stock lighting, instead we have an interactive fire lighting show which is triggered by the witch movement.

But I guess I should go buy another pinball machine so I can make "unique" mods. Like the one cannon that exists for POTC or the one Emerald City that exists for WOZ. Or the one set of castle walls for WOZ. Or the one set of decals for WOZ. /s

The only view of the witch ever posted, before we announced the sillyoldelf witch with pictures just a few days ago, was a silhouette of one of our early concepts (designed from scratch) along with the prototype flames and base. I don't see how anyone would have known what the witch really looked like until we announced the sillyoldelf partnership and posted pictures.

I don't want you to feel like you have to defend yourself against me and my opinion. I appreciate you sharing yours. And I shared my opinion along with some alternatives that I brainstormed in about 2 minutes that are pretty distinct I think. I don't have any ill will against you, and although I gave your comments consideration, my opinion hasn't really changed. But I guess that's why it's mine. I don't expect yours to change either. And that's okay with me.

I always appreciated the different versions of mods, however, I am not making a business selling mods and just buying them. There are very similar mods, but sometimes it is nice to choose between versions. Some modders make a 3D printed green castle that attacked to the back board. There is also a modder who made a castle that’s more realistic looking. The 3D printed one is cheaper but I chose to go with the more realistic one even though it was way more expensive. I don’t really care for the light show on the red smoke on the one Houdini is selling. I as a pin owner and collector appreciate everyone’s time in making mods. I hate that this thread has gone to this back lashing. Let’s get back to witches and monkeys

Need more chicken videos

And chicken!

Oh for sure. I just think we should be dealing with the facts. I don't think most here have done the research or know which chicken came before which egg before jumping on a hate bandwagon. Support your chosen mod for whatever reasons but I would hope others would at least realize that there is depth and detail which doesn't start and end with this thread or this specific version of a witch mod.

Well, Im just going to have to buck the trend and change out to Glinda the Good Witch!

pasted_image (resized).png

Art my friend... I know eyesight gets worse when you get older; but, if you think you can fit that ball down that hole - you need your prescription checked.

*hope you are doing well.

If there wasn't already a crystal ball on the playfield, this with a hole cut out of it and the witch coming in and out of it would have been a creative mod.

Hey Scott:

They copy more than buns

Big Mac - Mcdonalds
Big King - Burger King

...but I don't think burgers are art. At least not the ones at Burger King and McDonalds.

Hamburger art you say?

https://fineartamerica.com/art/hamburger

Copying Steve's design is bad enough. Coming into Steve's thread and calling attention to it is over-the-top. IMHO Steve has a right to be bothered and to go into Harry's thread to address the issue.

You forgot the Big Carl.

Can you explain what point you think you're proving linking these two threads? Because I think you might be mistaken as to what the situation was and how it went down. But I wouldn't expect you to do more than a minor amount of searching and try to discredit me by whatever means you think proves your point.

If you are suggesting I copied someone else, you're not only dead wrong but you're also tossing another modder under the bus.

You might want to read this post: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/potc-who-has-playfield-dimples-cracking-wear-around-star-posts-/page/35#post-5111598

So if you aren't claiming ownership over the flames, please let me know which parts you are so I can make sure I understand how I copied them.

You didn't create the first witch, in fact the witch we are using was provably created before you even started this thread.

You didn't create the first castle walls nor the first witch's well. In fact your mod was released without the wall/well and was added later especially after at least 2 other people had created this before you even made your mod.

So, can you please expound on your complaint for all to see as to what I copied or what you have copyrighted?

**And in regard to your insinuation of the linked post, obviously you don't understand that much of what I post is sarcasm and tongue in cheek. I'm sorry the smiley face didn't tip you off in that post. Because, obviously, if I was going to take some copyright work or obvious IP infringement I would post about it.

Just my two cents but this back and forth on Steve's thread is just not the place to do this. Ultimately, this should be taken out of this public thread and done via PM, if at all.

This won't get resolved here.

I suggest we keep this to what it was before. Checking to see when the new list is being opened for the witch and random food comments and gifs!

Please everyone.

Dont feed the trolls.
Just put them on ignore.

I just tested my ignore feature.

By golly, it works really good! Lol

I suggest for people to at least try it.

You too!

Thanks for being such a shining example to us all.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wizard-of-oz-woz-flaming-witch-with-realistic-fire-mod-development#post-5251510

Good lord...copyright and/or original idea aside...how about just doing the right thing as another human being and:

1. Leave this thread alone
2. Find some other mod to make...there are thousands of possibilities out there. We all know you saw a quick buck in jumping in front of all of those folks still wanting a smoke mod. What you don't seem to understand is people are not lined up to buy the mod based on what it is, but rather the quality of what Gouveia puts out. These (and the monkeys) are individual works of art created with a lot of hard work....not simply a blob of plastic with some lights added in and made on a 3D printer. Gouveia's mods are of the few that actually seem to add value to the game....I can pretty much guarantee yours will not. Kind of like buying a fake Rolex to me............

This is the kind of complementary, polite, mutual fan-type stuff that goes on behind the scenes in the modder community here all the time in my experience. It's the way it should work. Modfather's also a class act, for sure in the interactions I've had with him. This courteous back and forth with Steve and Modfather doesn't surprise me at all.

This thread has officially derailed...