My question was a simple, direct one: DO YOU GUYS DOING THE WOZ PROGRAMMING BELIEVE IT MAY OR MAY NOT BE MORE COMPLETE WITHIN THE NEXT MONTH?

Anything except a response of 'We're working on it.' As I can get that type of a response from Stern. It is a yes or no response. Silence here could be VERY damaging I think.

Rick. "I'm gonna have me some answers." #190

I am biased. Of course I am. I don't expect anyone to take my opinion as gospel. My point is (lacking irony) is the only opinion that matters is your own. Screw what anyone else says.

Which is why these threads are pointless. You can treat them as points of information but form your own opinion.

So you are here. Please answer my question. IF you are really helping JJp program at all?

Rick. "I'm gonna have me some fun." #190

So, we should be demanding stern for the same thing when their code is not done right. An update every week from them as well right. Because demanding it from just one manufacturer wouldn't be right would it?

I can't answer any specifics but obviously things will be further along than they are today and Tuesday they will be further along than tomorrow. Changes and progression is iterative as all development is. 4 people working feverishly to create something amazing.

I know, right? Why doesn't anybody around here ever criticize Stern?

At the heart of most criticism is context.

-Jack claimed that Stern was making product no one wanted & he couldn't sell. Clearly that's not the case anymore...AC/DC BIB LE's and Tron LE's are sought after and people pay 10k plus for them. Even Iron Man is now being sought after & people are begging Stern to re-run it.

-Jack claimed Stern flippers can't get the ball up a ramp unless you push and beat on the game. Stern flippers are fine, yet WOZ's have been less than optimal at most show appearances.

-Jack claimed he wouldn't ship a game with unfinished code...it's starting to look highly likely that that will happen

-Jack's motto is "under promise and over deliver" ....yet nothing has been delivered yet, so...

There's just been so much fluff, and eventually some of these words and actions have become ironic or even hypocritical....it's ammo. I don't think anyone who uses that ammo (even Exejet) is just purely an evil person who is rooting for failure. I think most people feel like they were told "Stern blows, forget about them, I'm going to make the best game ever...join my wonderful club of pinball nirvana" ...that game isn't out yet, but they're having tons of fun with games like AC/DC and Tron. They've played WOZ at shows and it's don't find it to be that that fun (in its current state) compared to Stern's games which have been knocked down as horrible, undesirable, weak-flippered crap - almost in a religious proselyting fashion . So, the negative attitude is a response to the various ironies of the entire endeavor, and a backlash to the cult-like nature of the "JJP can do no wrong" cheerleaders. The extremes are clashing. Jack just really built up some insane expectations and now we're in reality-land.

Underlord, your question was very basic, i understand where your coming from. Maybe its just something they cant or dont want to answer right now. Answers like "we are working on it " and " monkey is broken we are fixing him", is kind of a dry update, not one i'd care to hear. Any information i'd like to hear, they just can't give out i don't think.

Pinchrome and the rest of you guys, your doing a fine job, keep at it. I think you guys all need that if any of you have been reading this nonsense.

I too would rather hear about gameplay from actual players rather than nonsense back and forth about the state of the program..(unless its actual data on how the program is functioning, information they cant give out)

And with this, I couldn't agree more!

Greg, you need to remove yourself from the discussion as you are way to logical and make too much sense to be part of pinside ! ( No offence to Pinside )

That is pretty awesome!
I was not planning on making to much on the pins I was really thinking about fixing them up and cleaning them up and selling them for a bit of profit.

You for sure are going to get a letter from the JJP evil attorneys.

I heard a rumor that Jack hired the X-Men programmer to program WOZ.

We see it most every day here. So it's already happening.

Where is that Transformers update ?

LTG : )

You are missing the point. If I hire Google to do something for me, and I hire a local startup in my hometown to do the same thing ... I'm hoping that the local start-up is able to communicate more with me than Google. Smaller, newer businesses usually are able to do this, and it helps. To compare them with Stern is, as others have said, apples and oranges. However, if Stern does a kickstarter campaign for a theme that they haven't even started to see if there's enough interest - then yes - I would expect more communication from Stern on a project like that if it got started than the normal pinball machine.

Are you biased in the other direction though, just saying.

I wondered why designers, software programmers, etc don't come on public forums.

Now I know why.

Really? That's not been my reality. I played the latest sterns and I found them lacking. I played a very unfinished WOZ and was pleasantly surprised. I don't have a WOZ or any sterns at this point, but am thinking of getting pins again. If I was to buy a pin, it would be a WOZ. Forget all the promises and hype. I am talking comparing machines. That's my reality. Everything else is just garbage talk, and other people's opinions. What matters most is how the pins play and feel to me. I think everyone should just play one and if you like it buy it. If not move on to something else.

Any way you color it, it is still double standard. Both companies should be held to the same standard. That is the point. Anything else to me is just double talk. Truth is truth.

I really wish AC/DC or Tron did it for me.

WOZ may very well turn out to be a turd, but I am more than willing to wait it out as there are no new machines at this time I have any interest in.

Alex most of us appreciate you coming on the site and giving your opinion. We also appreciate what ever insight you can and have shared with us. Obviously to most with an IQ over room temperature realize that you have some form of a non-disclosure agreement and can not just spill the beans.

It's Sunday does Jack pay time and a half : ))

Thanks for your posts --- now back to work : ))

They dont because its dangerous to their career. I know a professional bike rider, he and other pros do no post on public forums. Its not worth damaging your career over bullsh!t nonsense on a public forum. Most of the talk here is in circles as with any forum, there's little good information in them and any pos that actually has some real info in it gets skimmed over and lost in all the nonsense. Its just how it is, i dont post much and take forums for what they are.

You will have to explain that to me Tom, because I really don't know WTF you are talking about.

Just saying.

Understood, but then you know nothing about business. Different strokes for different folks my friend.

I have a growing concern over WOZ completion, nothing solidly based on facts at this time.

Call it finish line anxiety, concern over the lack of code progress, or Jack being in Italy on the final (hopefully!) stretch of production. Together my gut tells me something is amiss.
Lots of emotional exhuberance built up into this purchase. Beginning to end.
Like usual, I hope for the best but expect the worst.

Rick. "I'm gonna have me some fun." #190

I know nothing about business? Taking personal cheap shots tells me a lot about you.

I expecting WOZ code not to be fully complete by the time It ships.
Jack is going to a amusement/arcade show in Italy this week I'm assuming to promote WOZ.

Sorry Rob. I missed read your posts as yet another WOZ hater when you went off on Alex (at least that's how I took it to be).

Ok Noobs, take it outside, no hitting below the belt and I want a good clean fight! DING!

Internet thread posts...bringing folks together.

Rick. "I'm gonna have me some fun." #190

Keeping the faith Tommy. Now about that TF update we never got...

Rick. "I'm gonna have me some fun." #190

Marquess of Queensberry rules.

LTG : )

Don't get me started. Wish that "Christmas Update Powerpack" was never announced.

Alex said that those who criticize WOZ are biased. The obvious irony is that WOZ lover Alex is biased because he is working for JJP helping with code. Alex then posted that he admits that he is biased. I have nothing against him being biased in his situation either, as long as he admits it, which he has. I'd be biased in favor of WOZ if I were him too.

I don't see any reason why this project wouldn't be completed. I don't have a horse in the race, but I think those that do will be very happy in the near future. I for one am glad to see a new company taking a risk and building such high caliber machines. I know a lot of people on here think that the latest Sterns are the pinnacle of pinball, but I think a new standard will be set here... or maybe it's an older standard being revived from when everything but the kitchen sink was put into a game.

I think you have to have a real passion for pinball to want to start a new manufacturing company. Certainly there's better and easier ways to increase your cash flow. You have to have respect for these new upstarts and hope they succeed, because the future of pinball most likely depends on it.

I don't think a lot of people see Stern as the pinnacle of pinball. Don't get me wrong. I love Stern pinball, otherwise I won't buy their games, but they haven't made strides to make pinball evolve into the next evolution of pinball. The games have stayed the same for the last 20 years. It's great they have kept it alive but it would be nice to see something different.
JJP is taking a step in with the LCD. P3 has the LCD in the playfield which is big leap IMHO.

Or it could be the JJP fans labeling anybody that says anything negative about WOZ as JJP bashers who want nothing more than to see JJP fail. It's the easiest way to remove different opinions from yours.

Same thing for all the Stern fanboys. You say anything negative about Stern and you must want them to fail. See the comparison? Same shit different manufacturer.

I have skin in the game. WOZ is paid for. Obviously I want JJP to succeed, but I'm not giving them a blind pass on everything either. Most of the negativity towards JJP IS warranted. If WOZ owners can't take it then maybe they should go back to the JJP forum where the water is nice and warm.

Pappy

I think what they are doing with the LCD in the PF, which is interactive with the ball, is *far* more innovative than just using an LCD screen in the back box.

That doesn't mean P3 is going to be any good....in fact, looking at the prototype it better play a lot better than it looks, its still pinball and the shots on what I'm seeing so far ain't that great...

And I think "than just using an LCD screen in the back box" is pretty damn innovative and much further along than anyone else has done!

There are plenty of video games out there instead for what P3 is trying to do....for me.....I don't need a 350 pound clunker just to play a video game or have 1200 removable upper play fields....just sayin....but that said, as always, I'm open to see what happens with it!

Rob, whenever I see a post from you regarding WOZ I would lay odds it will be negative in tone. Same with Pappy, McCune, Benepinball, Chessiv and others. I wouldn't go so far as to say you are "haters who want JJP to fail".

Just as my I may come across as a WOZ fanboy and Stern hater, though I think LOTR, TSPP and a few others are great pins. I hope Stern produces machines of their like again and I think they're moving in that direction. In the mean time, I will call em like I see em in hope that the input might lead to improvements.

Perhaps you guys are just doing the same. Perhaps you have some other agenda, only you know.

Flame suit on

Pinball 2k has had a monitor and images that interact with the playfield directly. Plus the p3 also uses a LCD that INTERACTS with the ball. All pin manufacturers need to spend a majority of money on items that INTERACT with the ball. Too much window dressing is wasting money. Stern needs to re-learn this.

Just got back from Marvin's and played a good 8 games (set to $1 each) on WOZ. Wow, what a machine! Like everyone else has said the machine is built like a tank. The side art feels great (printed directly on the cabinet I believe?) and appears durable. The whole machine just pops no matter what part of the playfield you look at.

As far as game play goes its easy to tell that the code is far from complete. There doesn't appear to be a single mode in the game at this point. I was a little concerned about the lack of longer ramps but the two shots at the back of the playfield are nice to hit. The right ramp shot is very similar to the power playfield shot in TZ in terms of steepness and difficulty. The shot to the left has a drop down target that must be hit several times until you hit it again and enter the upper left mini playfield. Once some modes and a deep rule set are in this game I can see the potential of it being a top 10 game. The sound quality is great, the playfield looks great and the quality and feel is similar to TZ.

A couple concerns I have is that the right outlane does drain often even with the bumper peg set to the middle position. I also saw two balls get stuck in a spot near the crystal ball (awesome feature btw!) where a kicker pushes the ball up. It's possible that the ball stuck issue could be fixed by increasing the coil strength for that particular coil. I did not see the house spin at all in this game and I did get a multiball a few times. I'm not sure if the house will always just spin at one speed or (would be cool in my opinion) spins quicker with each shot hit in the upper right mini playfield.

The game at Marvin's in the standard model and here's the difference from what I could tell. The ball return's are not green as in the LE but standard raw metal. I don't believe this attracts from the game in my opinion. Also, considering that the Tin Man is the same color (lol) the ball returns look nice in the standard model. Finally, there is a topper on the game that (at least on this machine) is the same as the one I saw on the LE at Abel Electronics and the side rails and lock down bar are standard silver.

I have a Hobbit LE preordered and feel much more comfortable being in the long haul for it after seeing and playing WOZ in person.

It's kind of a step back from P2K IMO. I still think it's a good innovation though. And will really help WOZ stand out on location.

After reading what I wrote, I could see how someone could see what I said as a JJP update, when in fact, I was presenting a "what if" type newsletter written by myself. Sorry for the confusion.

I think it's silly to criticize, call people haters, or want company x, y and z to fail based on an honest criticism that is a snapshot in time. There is plenty to criticize both JJP and Sten on. Yet, I don't think anyone here wants any to fail.

I'm not a huge Stern fan but AC/DC is by far my favorite game of all time. I so want Jack to succeed and embrace not only his enthusiasm but demand for quality. I was a buyer of WOZ twice. I backed out on an LE because at the time, it just seemed so far off and it felt like a lot paying for the game. I got back in when I saw the quality of the game as a whole. I bailed because the slow gameplay and because I simply could not stand the voice acting of the game. Not happy that JJP is most likely going to ship a game that is far from finished.

I will be eagerly watching the Hobbit, but I could not pre-order when the gameplay track record so far is not to my liking.

I was just there a few hours ago. Got some interesting stuff and would love to play a complete one, but this is basically "shoot a ramp" code right now. Flippers had nice power, and outlanes didn't give me too much hassle but tilt wasn't too sensitive.

Sure, everyone has their own opinion based on their tastes and experiences. I was just trying to offer some context as to why some people would have a negative opinion JJP and WOZ thus far. They're not just "haters" or "want him to fail".

If anyone gives a crap about my post, that is their problem ! I don't hate WOZ at all. I have good friends that ordered WOZ ! I do get a kick out of some of the fan boys that do way more harm to JJP than JJP themselves !

I remember the hate spewed when AC/DC was announced and the JJP fanboys were brutal !

I am friends with Jack and Keith and wish the best for them .

Nice of you to read more into my post then I meant for them to say , I will try harder...NOT

McCune

Well this post really isn't very fair, is it?

I mean, even if I make posts that you perceive as mostly "negative in tone" when it comes to WOZ, what does that matter if what I post is my honest opinion? It isn't fair to try and paint with such a broad brush or to try and imply that I am somehow biased.

If you see a post from me about WOZ or JJP that you disagree with, how about responding to it with your reasons for disagreeing with it? We can discuss it. That would make a lot more sense than your gross overgeneralization here that you made against me and other members.

If the point of your post was to get me to post "positive" things about WOZ or JJP, in order to prove I'm not biased, you have failed. My prior posts on the subjects stand on their own. If you don't like those opinions, and you think that I am biased, that's ok. But again, it would make a lot more sense to me to actually discuss specific things that I said instead just throwing mud.

Duh.

Can we all just stop saying that others wish company XYZ to fail? I've yet to see someone actually say that - instead, all I see are people saying that others think that. I've been very negative towards WOZ in terms of the stage it's at and whatnot, but like others, I do NOT want it to fail! I want it to be the best game of all time. I want there to be good competition. I for one actually like the concept of WOZ as well. This does not mean I'm rooting for JJP to fail or the machine to fail. I'm not at all - I just have concerns, like others, about various issues. Period.

My last post was not negative towards JJP. But I have been negative in the past. Just not happy with how some things went down with WOZ. However I preordered two years ago and I have followed this WOZ journey all the way. I feel like I can speak from real experience and I will continue to say how I feel. Just like you I call em like I see em.

I had no idea you were keeping tabs. I better watch what I say now

Pappy