It is completely ridiculous and borderline offensive that you beat TNPLH on your first try. Who do you think you are, Bowen Kerins?

Well if you do play it make sure it is in a well lit room, the GI is terrible and it is very hard to track the ball if you have low light on in the room. I also find the sound effects to be quite annoying, and the insert LEDs are blinding.

I am very happy that this pin was made though. As already discussed the rules are deep, high quality feel, quite a few unique features, and shows promise for more great things to come from JJP. I really hope Jack can figure out a solution to the GI on Hobbit.

I did it on my first try as well. ><

In the 20-odd times since then, not even close...

Haha I did the same. First time i got it i completed it and saved the ball. Never again have I come close.

Do have to say I did not enjoy TNPLH mode - felt like a chore. Toto is fine, one shot and go. TNPLH should also be timed quick, and it should just be to light the rainbow targets, with every hit to a rainbow target spotting a letter not each individual target being required. Then its over fast sucess or failure.

...or you can just not have any ball-save mini games like every other pin. I completed TNPLH only once...and that drives me to do it again. It's a game within a game, and a great challenge...and it should be if you want your ball back.

It just takes too long. I've completed it once and it was such a pain in the ass I'd rather let the ball drain. The only time i'd consider completing it now is if i had a great game/ball going. To play a four player game and have each player thrash away at TNPLH for a few minutes each is just painful.

Deep games aren't for impatient multiplayer parties. It's an adventure - whatcha gonna do.

I think TNPLH mini-game is kinda cool...yeah, it's long...but there's definitely a sense of accomplishment when completed. I did it once- but then lost my ball down the middle 10 seconds later lol

There's only one "card game rule" you need to know, and that is the completed holdem hand value (the hand displayed in center of pf) gives you a multiplier of the points in the "pot" (which can be increased by hitting the spinners). A high card (no pair or better) gives you 1/2 the pot value, a pair gives you the pot, 2 pair gives 2x pot, 3-of-a-kind gives 3x pot, and there are a few higher multipliers for flush, straight, 4-of-a-kind, etc. The rest of the game is just points and modes and multiballs and stacking, nicely interwoven. Drop targets flash to show which targets you need to make another hand. WPT is one of the deepest and probably THE most strategic pin ever. And the playfield shoots nicely, having both great flow and a ton of drop targets and a challenging mini-playfield.

Yes, the "EIGHTEEN!" modes in ST are a joke. (Really 6 fungible modes, with 3 "levels" each.) Basically variations on maybe 2 modes, nothing else: hit the flashing or colored insert shots or the single drop target (and they are all basic ramps/lanes), sometimes with a timer, sometimes with more points for consecutive "combos." A very basic, simplistic format for ALL the modes. Played the game, watched the tutorial. *yawn* Yes it has flow, but it's incredibly repetitive.

You also understate so much of what is in WOZ. Lights on/off with 2x scoring? Just 2 of the 5 crystal ball modes, and they stack with other modes but it's tough to know what you need to start other modes without the inserts helping. You missed no-hold flipper and reversed flipper modes, either of which is more interesting than any ST mode, esp. when stacked. And there's a novel "weak flipper" mode. And those are just for one minor playfield element, the crystal ball standups and spinner lane. ST modes most closely correspond to TNPLH on WOZ, and *that* is just a single ballsave mode. There's also stuff like hitting the dangerous rainbow standups to activate the twister pf, and making enough orbit shots around the house to start one of 4 munchkin modes (with a timed restart up the ramp if you drain from the mini-pf). The witch hurryups, which can then start fireball mode. Locking different numbers of balls in the castle before starting Rescue multiball. Hitting rollover buttons to enable locks for Emerald City multiball. HOADC mode. Haunted Forest scoring modes (four of them). Most of these are stackable too.

WOZ code isn't finished yet but it's deeper and more varied than ST can/will ever be (there's simply not enough pf shot variety in ST to support any breadth of experiences), and the higher wizard modes aren't even in yet. ST is a fast "reflex" game that involves hitting the same small set of indicated shots over and over. It's good for what it is, but to say it is deep or complex or that the playfield layout is interesting, or that there's any significant variety of shots and playfield targets, well, that is simply not true. Disingenuous at best.

Wanna put a disclaimer on your posts that you also sell Stern games now, Derek? I think you should.

Great post. +1! I like both games but ST is not deep by any stretch of the imagination.

The beauty of TSPP is that you don't have to appreciate how deep the game is to have a fun, shallow time with the machine. You can be playing in under a minute and have an exciting, challenging game. The extra stuff is there to discover and it keeps the game from being tedious and repetitive. I like both shallow and deep games, but an epic game is one like TSPP which can pander to both sensibilities simultaneously.

Jesus H. where is the freaking whinny kid pic when you need it??? Rob???? lol

I'm glad you got rid of it so maybe you'll quit whining about it.

So like I said before not that deep on WOZ; I played it and it is cool but does not really have any modes in it yet where it is hit this shot then hit this shot and so on; it is just s flail fest where everything on the playfield lights up. Just saying yeah it is cool with the flipper thing and the lights but like I said is just a flail fest

Did you have your eyes open while playing WOZ? Most modes have very specific goals and shots needed. Another "ST" mode is the fireball mode, where you have to shoot the blue shot while avoiding the orange (fire) shots. Again, just one of many varied modes, with a huge assortment of playfield targets and features to shoot at. Not a flail fest at all; you just look foolish publicly by making statements like that.

I did not say all modes were a flail fest; I said some were like lights out and lights on

I've played the WOZ and it was really hard to tell what light was staying on so I could see what mode I was shooting. That's a design issue, all the flashing lights and the inability to see the light that's on. Doesn't seem like a well thought out design.

That's not really true. Fireball Frenzy is a very unique mode with specific shots to hit and shots that change colors for a specific purpose unlike your typical shoot all shots mode. Emerald City Multiball and Rescuse Multiball also have very unique and deep objective based rules that require various shot to be hit throughout the playfield. Battle The Wicked Witch and Somewhere Over the Rainbow wizard modes will likely be objective based as well once they get in the game. All of those modes are much deeper then "Shoot all lit shots" based modes and wizard modes in my opinion. Combined with HD LCD animations they are really cool.

Whats unique about WOZ is that the above modes can be stacked with Crystal Ball mulitball modes that offer 2x-3x scoring that can really help increase your score. These are not your average 2x scoring modes as it only last for as long as you have the multiball and they are each unique, 5 in all. There's light off, lights on, flipper frenzy (reverse flippers), weak flippers, and no hold flippers. Instead of making only a 2x scoring multiplier WOZ goes the extra mile and puts unique twists on scoring modes. All the modes are risk / reward as they make the game more difficult (the witch messing with you) but can offer additional points. Same can be said for the Munckin Land modes, which total 4 alone. Also, I haven't got Munchkin Multiball yet but I would think it would be objective based as well. Also, Haunted Multiball is still coming for the game and I'm betting will be another objective based multiball. Toss in Horse of a Different Color, Glinda rewards, as well as other Keith surprises that will make it into the game and I think you have the deepest pinball machine of all time.

I'm sure Keith will polish up some of the games existing modes as well, some he already has, which will only make the game even better.

Which simply means you don't get the concept of the rules. I know you have probably never seen the movie, because a real man never would have seen it. But when the crystal ball was in it, the witch was messing with Dorothy. And crystal ball modes in the game are the witch messing with you. They are supposed to make the game harder to play and difficult to understand. But under those modes, the real mode you are trying to play is still running, but you cannot see what to do anymore because again, the Wicked Witch (the protagonist in the story of the game) is fucking with you. When you think about that for more than a second, it is absolutely brilliant programming. Flailing??? Flailing will start modes when you don't want to. Playing out of control on WOZ will turn it into a flail fest, because you were playing it like a flail fest. So Keith decided the witch should kick your ass as a reward.

And Kieth, those modes tick me off more than you could imagine. If i play out of control the game just punishes me? That is just evil programming. ECMB, and a munchkin mode stacked with reverse flippers??? You are a cruel man.

Why do the same WOZ owners here try so hard to convince the Pinside group we've somehow missed the fun factor of WOZ? Most of us here have spent enough time on the game to see all it has to offer so far. The TV and non-stop flashing LED's only carry the game so far. Seems like a green copy of the TSPP with LED's.

Actually, as a WOZ owner, I couldn't give a crap if you like the game or not. If you don't find it fun, don't buy it. Don't put tokens in it. But I also notice the same group of people in every WOZ thread. For people that say don't like the game, they sure seem to like the threads about the game, eh?

I thought the same thing until I noticed that you score points during TNPLH, you just don't notice while in the mode. Completing it gives you 15K - 20K which are decent points on WOZ. TNPLH is much more fun now that I'm not wasting three minutes trying to hit the R target on Rainbow.

If you see this video... TNPLH starts at 28,438 points and ends with 63,898 - which means 35,460 points were scored. Likely less if there weren't so many missed shots!

That is what this forum is for,that pinsders can talk about what they like about their pins,as well as other things pinball related.

Not trying to convince anyone especially since a big majority of people like the game. Just trying to be helpful regarding comments on the rules for people that may not fully understand them. Like any game the rules change with updates and WOZ has received over 20 of them this year. I can recall a few people that did not like the game early on but do now especially after the last couple of updates.

I don't think Jack will do that, at least we hope he won't. So far JJP has done a few positive things different from Stern and I think offering complete deep rule sets will be one of them. If anything they want to and need to come across as "Hey we are committed to completing code and offering rich deep rule sets in our games".

I think Jack knows that good solid code helps sell games and can make a game great. Without completing the code for WOZ and having it polished with a deep ruleset I think there would be a good amount of people that would back out of The Hobbit. Personally I would as without a deep ruleset I don't see the point in spending $7.5k-$8k on a pinball machine no matter how many toys it contains.

So far JJP has done a great job with updating WOZ and I hope that continues for a while longer. Keith also mentioned that WOZ would be updated down the road if The Hobbit and even future games get something unique software wise (maybe system / menu related) and WOZ doesn't have it.

Your contempt for WOZ defies rationality. Did WOZ sleep with your wife? Were you called a "munchkin" in grade school? Are you afraid of scarecrows, flying monkeys or little dogs? Why is it that in every thread you feel compelled to lecture everybody about how "boring" and crappy the game is?

Here's an idea.. save yourself some time.. contact Robin and see if you can pay him to put a banner on every page of pinside where you can say how much you hate WOZ/JJP. Imagine the time and trouble that will save!