It's more like coil pulse length isn't it? Unless the flipper transistors are actually triacs.

it does not effect the flipper coils

stern adjustment menu
COIL PULSE POWER: Set to NORMAL, HARD or SOFT. Factory Default = NORMAL. When set to
HARD, the coil pulse power is increased by 12.5% of the normal pulse rate. When set to SOFT the coil pulse power is decreased by 12.5% of the normal pulse rate. This adjustment is provided to compensate for Low Line or High Line voltage conditions where the solenoids (coils) appear to kicking too weak or too hard. Adjust as required.

I thought they were using Williams parts? In that case they are using double wound coils instead of the (Stern) pulse width modulation. Must be something in between based on a new board set I suspect...

As others have said. This is not a problem in the least bit for anyone who bought this machine. They will have the flippers at full strength before release and the game will be set up at 6.5+ degrees. It just is a little baffling why the game is set up as it is without explanation when JJP knows so much attention is being paid?

I don't know how to post a you tube link, but there is a new posting of gameplay footage up. I googled Wizard of Oz Pinball Gameplay PPE 2012 WOZ. It shows some very nice detail and it is easier to hear the callouts. It is 1:32 long.

Maybe will see a set of these for WOZ:

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=1112

I think this is the video of which you speak.

Thanks Jarjar! That is it.

That game looks sweet! I want one.

Nice! Thats some awesome lighting.

There is quite a bit going on in this playfield and the player hit the ramp a few times in a few seconds even during a multiball. I don't see a problem with the flipper strength. Looking forward to playing this someday.

I hope Jacks dream comes true and the current arcades all get one. Time will tell.

Can't wait to see this in real life. That will be the real test.

Great... Now I am going to have to pony up for another $8K game. Good for Jack..!!!

I played it a bunch at PPE, and I think Zucot summed up my feelings exactly. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna bail as well unless someone can talk me out of it ...Keith? Matt?

It was interesting to see the two camps at PPE - the "Flippers are weak" camp, and the "You have to be precise" camp. C'mon, lets not bullshit each other here. We know what a Williams flipper feels like. It SNAPS. We know Jack has made fun of Stern flippers in past seminars, and touted how great his WMS flippers will be. So - we can speculate about how the flippers will be stronger in the future....but WTF aren't they strong NOW!? This is what scares me, honestly. I understand the WIP nature of the code & sound....that stuff takes time...but the first thing that should work and work well is the FLIPPER. Why would you want weak flippers on your first impression games? Something about it just doesn't add up...Jack was very defensive about it and every time someone made a ramp he was like "look, they made the ramp!" ...OK, I can make the ramp on a Batman Forever that needs a flipper rebuild, but it's not satisfying...it's a "I fiiiiinally made it...gah!" feeling. So...yeah...that's what these flippers felt like to me...routed Sega flippers. They "pushed"...they didn't "snap". Meanwhile - all my Sterns are snappin' just fine and rockin' balls up ramps with ease. The irony here is mindblowing.

Honestly, the toys weren't impressing me much either. You kind of don't notice the witch much from the player's perspective....she kinda gets lost in the trees. The trees are very stiff and plasticy...some bouncy branches or glowing eyes would have made them more interesting. I kept thinking that they're technically the same idea as TSPP's towers...but the towers light up. The house loop wasn't that fun. I don't quite get the point of the flying Monkey....I thought it was going to lock balls behind the castle doors...but it drops it on the upper playfield and is immediately released by a small door. Functionally, it serves the same purpose as the VUK...get the ball to the upper left....so - yeah, don't quite get the point. Behind the two castle doors is a kickout saucer....so - you open the doors...then shoot it in the saucer? *shrug* ...I dunno.

The color and fade FX of the LEDs were gorgeous...it was well built and shiny. I like the LCD...the resoluation kinda makes it seem like an interactive backglass....but overall, it was just "off" for me. I wish them the best and hope it makes some kind of turnaround before release...but I just don't know if I can hang.

Solid points.... Maybe it having a deep ruleset would change your mind???? But if you dont like making the shots then yeah that aint a good thing...

I just hope those guys aren't afraid to ask for additional help when they need it, and not before it's too late. It's not their fault so many people are so excited and hopeful that WOZ is going to break new ground, but it does put a lot of pressure on everybody involved and I feel for them.

I haven't played the game - I have my own list of things I expect to see. I am not looking to cancel - I am still expecting JJP to be attentive to the community and roll with the punches, take everything into account, and deliver a great product.

Where are the pictures NimblePin?

Here!

On the move...
IMG_1533.jpg

A dialed down look at the PF.
IMG_1572.JPG

The upper PF... (Which cradles surprisingly well!)
IMG_1579.JPG

From a "Todd MacCulloch" style POV...
IMG_1626.jpg
Witch under glass... (plastic.)
IMG_1633.JPG
Green powder coating...
IMG_1569.JPG

Moar...

Tree detail...
IMG_1578.JPG
Another angle...
IMG_1580.JPG
Yet another...
IMG_1581.JPG
The gLoWiNg underside... (Hey look! Shower handrails! )
IMG_1593.JPG
Leg detail...
IMG_1638.jpg
Another POV...
IMG_1573.jpg

Hi Greg,

I think the problem with having the flippers too strong is that the drop target could break. I don't know if they're working on a reinforced target, but maybe that's why the flippers are set for less power right now.

As I understand it there will be much more to the upper left playfield. Jack mentioned that the monkey will drop the ball behind the door and it will be held there. You will have to do a number of things to open the castle doors, then put a ball in the saucer behind the doors to start a multiball. Do you know of another game that has two different ball lock mechanisms? It seems to me, the variety of shots, toys, lights, etc... give Keith plenty to work with. Don't you think he'll make the most of it?

As zucot said, you can't change the playfield. I didn't experience his problem with the location of the center left vuk/right ramp placement but he does have a point regarding the difficulty in seeing the ball to time a shot from the upper right flipper. Other than that issue, go around the playfield and look at the shots, I think you'll find most of them are satisfying to hit.

We'll see how major or minor these issues are as the game progresses and we get more playing time.

Jim

"I have no horse in the race but I asked your friends about your activities and chase down JJP fundraising rumors."

Regarding the flippers - the word I got was the power was deliberately turned down on them. I set up the overhead camera for Jack's presentation and was told this by a few people who were at the setup that you see in the video. I didn't get much more info than that - I had to leave and go lose in the tournament.

I sort of shrugged my shoulders at that decision because I knew exactly the kind of reaction that would result on the message boards. But yeah, it's still a WIP, though you can't help but be impressed by the fit and finish, art work, light show and LCD. The whole thing just really stands out in a group of games. Even made the new colorDMDs pale by comparison.

After hearing all the weak flipper complaints I decided not to play it. Several friends are getting it so I think I'll wait for the finished product. The line 20 deep to play it also contributed to that decision...

http://www.youtube.com/embed/n1To6stxuHQ

Really? How often have regular-powered Williams flippers broken a drop target? Especially one all the way near the top of the playfield?

If that was truly a decision...it absolutely makes no sense...and after the barrage of complaints, why weren't they deliberately turned back up?

Something just does not make sense here...

To a point, worrying about flipper strength on a prototype pinball is akin to worrying about whether you'll be able to pound a nail into a piece of wood with a hammer. If the hammer you have is too small, you can simply get a bigger hammer. In case case, if the coil strength is too low, you turn it up. And if the coil simply doesn't have the power, you put in a stronger coil.

I can see no reason why the finished product would not have the ability to deliver way too much power to the flippers. As to why it was "turned down" or inadequate at the show, unless someone in the know actually says something, all we have are wild guesses and there's already enough of that around here.

(But Greg... I'm kinda surprised that you're complaining that the flying monkey ball lock merely releases the ball right away... maybe it is time to get out, because there's no way you honestly believe it'll behave that way when Keith's done!)

Is it though? A flipper is a pretty fundamental thing that shouldn't need "development time" to feel right. It just seems really strange that it felt how it felt. I played the P3 proto extensively, and that is TRULY a proto...with all new flipper designs...and they JAM. So...it just seems like there's something really strange about this situation. Spidey-sense tingling!

Good point.....but I dunno man, after playing it in person I am just NOT feeling it. Like any game, I guess...it either grabs you or doesn't.

We all know coils can be made as strong as you need, so there's absolutely no technical or physicial reason why they can't be strong enough in the end.

But as to why it isn't right now? Who knows. I can't think of any conspiracy theories that would result in the final game having issues. The most logical ideas that come to my mind are that they don't have the right coils installed (because they changed the BOM and don't have them yet), they're worried about damaging prototype plastics on the playfield, or perhaps there's an issue with overheating after a day of solid use and they are still in process of changing things.

That's all guesses, but what isn't a guess is that there's a hell of a lot of pinball expertise on this team, and if they're weak then it was for a good reason, and at the end of the day there's no way they would purposefully ship out an underpowered game.

All this mountain-out of a molehill weak flipper talk is nonsense.

As long as they aren't like the crap in LOTR, monopoly, TSPP, RBION, I think we'll be ok.

One thing I can think of regarding the flippers is the slippers that are tacked on. Granted, they don't weigh much, but they weigh something. The additional mass has to be moved, and the flippers we're used to have basically been the same mass for what, 30 years? Think of the difference it makes when you swap out WMS System 3-7 flippers with the newer type that are lighter. Or if you drill out System 3-7 flippers as Clay recommends in his guides. The change in mass makes a difference, they are more snappy.

Can this be overcome by tweaking the coil pulse or the coil type? Probably. It is just something that has to be dialed in.

The player has always had the power to make the flippers stronger, just click them together three times.

How are people not jumping all over the answers to issues that we are getting?

Gameplay Angle:
"We didn't adjust the leg levelers because we didn't have tools on-hand". Seriously?!? We are accepting this answer AT A PINBALL EXPO? Anyone who's ever been to any type of pinball show knows that owners are constantly working on their games. Couldn't ask to borrow a wrench? Set the angle ONCE and never touch it again. It may not be right every time you setup, but it will surely be BETTER and it would silence critics.

Flipper Strength:
-=No answer given=- If ANY of us had possession of this game, wouldn't this be the VERY FIRST thing you did to get the game ready to show it off? Especially with Jack's history of knocking the competition on that very issue.

Voice Acting
"There is no 'pinball-specific' speech in the movie". That's just lame. I'm trying to remember the 'pinball specific' speech in the following movies: The Addams Family, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Congo, Dracula, Demolition Man, Lethal Weapon 3, Hook (I said it), ... ... and countless more games that used real clips. Some of the CREATIVE USES of voice have even become classic call outs. "Dirty Pool". "Stay on target".

My frustration doesn't come from the answers themselves, and issues ARE expected, but from the fact that these answers seem to be GOOD ENOUGH for many people here. Not only do you guys accept the answers, but you actively defend them.

Why?

Directly from the horses mouth:

From Jersey Jack on the JJP Forum-

"I spent almost six hours straight last night until midnight watching
people playing the game and listening to their comments. Lots of great
stuff.

We set this game up to play at medium strength for all coils including
lower flippers. Even little kids get up the ramp, it's a skill shot
more at the moment although once tweaked up in strength, even a
halfway shot will get it up the ramp. It's going to kick!"

Where in LOTR movie does Gimli go "SOOOOOPER JACKPOT MUAH-HA-HA-HA!!"??

or.. "EXTRA BALL!!" or "Special!" or... "That's an army!" =\

I'm a little surprised they didn't go for the obvious pun (and marketing tag line) "Ruby Red Flippers." Don't need the shoes on the flipper bats, just paint the bats.

so true. Besides finance, this probably best explains variance in collections!

Maybe mold the bats.

the flipper coils don't look to be stock. their labeled with a jjp logo type 23-2000-00.

I am pretty sure they are doing that with all the parts rather than using the Williams parts numbers. I believe Stern does the same thing for all their parts.

Not sure if people saw this or not...

Looks so good in those pics! Gameplay looks like pinball to me . But with a HUGE lcd screen and killer rgb color changing led lamps. Here in Northwest Arkansas we cannot wait for this to come out and be in the collection(s) . Totally excited to be in on this project.

Clay - WOW!! Great vid...maybe some of these guys are looking at a different machine than I am lol. It is like several pins packed into one machine. Innovation and new stuff everywhere along with familiar stuff right alongside. Wish you could have looked inside the shiny box .

I personally think they are leaving the table at a shallow angle, and lowered the power of the flippers so that the game would play slower and let people explore it a little more.

Maybe at the proper incline and flipper power, the game is absolutely brutal.

Even if this isn't the real reason, it could be a good excuse.

I do not care why they are doing it. It does not effect my income. I/we are not making the calls because it is not our company. I do not expect there will be problems when the production pin hits the streets. It is a non-issue in the big picture. Why do we have to hear the same questions over and over?

Thanks for the video Clay. Looks like a very impressive machine both inside and out! Seeing the pc and the diagnostics screen on the LCD reminds me of Pinball2000. This machine really is the next big step in the evolution of pinball! Even if the game-play ends up being mediocre, I'd still be tempted to buy one just because of how flippin' cool it looks! Have any details been leaked on what type of pc is powering this game. I'd have to imagine it's running some version of Linux, as well as a SSD hard drive to speed up boot times and increase reliability.

Are those quick connect wires on all of the coils on the game? I'm sure that makes things easier to swap and replace, but I wonder if there would be any potential problems with the connectors falling off because of vibration?

Very good point Wolfmarsh. Maybe that's also why they set the game up for 2 ball play only (what I heard anyways). I'm not going to pass any judgement until I see it at expo in Chicago. By then there will be another month of work on it. I think the game looks visually excellent. The weak flippers worry me but if it was done intentionally then I just don't know what to say. Hoping the best for JJP at this point as he is the only one pushing Stern to make good games.

In the big picture, neither do I, but I am eating lunch and speculating. It's fun.

I also heard that the LE legs have electronic auto-levellers that drive the levellers up or down to auto set the incline. True story.

The issue I'm starting to have is the "excuse" making. Yes, this is a work in progress, but when the people standing over the game making videos are all saying the flippers feel weak, why not just set them to full temporarily to shut everyone up once and for all.

I'm just being honest with myself and there are many positives and many negatives. At the moment, the negatives are winning out. There is still time, but I feel like that window of opportunity (for me) is closing.

I think the flipper strength issue may be something of a catch 22. The ramp shot is similar to the Alpha ramp on STTNG in that it needs a high powered coil at full strength to consistently make the shot. But WOZ also has short shots like the crystal ball and Wizard on the left and right side. . With full strength coils these shots would likely "brick out" or worse yet cause airballs which could cause things to break. A game like STTNG is fine with stronger coils because most of the shots are long and you don't have saucers and things to hit up close. It may just be an issue where they are having a hard time achieving a good flipper power balance and they decided to err on the side of caution by making them weak on purpose? This is just my theory though.

The game is looking stunning to say the least , my wife and daughter seen the latest video and said lets purchase when its avaliable .

The game will eventually come out, be as good as expected (once it's tweaked out) and be worth twice what they paid for them in a year. Looks great to me.
Just my prediction/opinion, Bob

Jack stated on the WOZ forum that the coils were "dialed down" for PPE as they wanted to "go Easy". "We will crank them up for Expo"

Yep, and those new flippers actually broke on the 2nd day. So while I commend the P3 guys for really letting people bang around on it, I think JJP was smart to tone the game down so that they could minimize any potential failures and allow people to play the game as much as possible.

Obviously JJP wasn't successful in getting WOZ to stay up and running the entire time either, but it certainly could have gone much worse if it had been cranked up to 11.

Tony

Not a big fan of the theme, but the game looks pretty incredible. Hope this is just the first of many.