Back again with another WOZ problem (I swear it's not me!)

Something is wrong with the lighting. Noticing these things:

1. The yellow brick road lighting (1-10 or whatever) is always on in normal game play from the start (yellow) ... there may be a few other things always on now, like TOTO but I'm not 100% sure what is normally on/off.

2. In "save" (TNPLH or TOTO) or "special" modes (like RESCUE) all inserts on the playfield are on and white. So, in the first TOTO save you'll have all white solid inserts and then the ramp will be blinking white. I am almost 100% sure the other inserts were off previously.

3. All of the LED lighting is extremely bright and the LED brightness setting (low, med and high or whatever) does nothing to change this.

4. The RESCUE letters are now a very vibrant yellow and not sort of orangish, definitely noticed a change here.

The last thing I did on the machine was put it back together after working on the castle playfield. I checked all LED connections that I touched (all lights work/turn on so nothing is unplugged) and rebooted it. Recently (within the past week or so) I updated the software, however I am almost sure it worked fine after that (the LEDs were acting normally). Not sure what to do, only familiar with old style lighting. Thanks!

Thanks!

Thanks, that helps!

Hum, I think I screwed something up. I was trying to debug each board/connection and I unplugged power to some of the main boards (W6 and W3) while the game was on. Apparently this was not a good thing to do? When I plugged them back in they would not turn on and some other boards north of those are also out now. Resetting the game did nothing. I wouldn't think it would be a fuse since they power is daisy chained and I don't even think my version of the game has the individual fuses for LED circuits (according to the manual).

I was spending a good amount of time reading about the LED setup in the manual. I didn't realize that my printed manual is missing a lot of that content (apparently it was all added after my game was produced) and just stumbled across it in an online version I downloaded.

Did I mess something up royally?

As far as testing goes, the only thing I noticed was that the left orbit GI might be out. Otherwise, I went through every LED in white and nothing stood out. A few were sort of "tinted" a different color (the last O in TOTO was a bit reddish). When I first enter the menu all of the lights go on white. When I enter the LED individual test just one LED is on, so in general they were working decently. I found one wire (the one from the IO to W6) which was sort of repaired and was fraying, I'm looking to order one of those but I am not sure if that is an issue. I can temporarily hold the wires together and nothing really changes, if I seperate the wires a bit some of the boards upstream dim a bit but that's all. I tried turning off the orbit LED in the game settings and nothing changed as far as the overall function/issue with the LEDs.

During the ALL LED test (before I unplugged those boards) about half the playfield was on white (the color selected) and the other half was various colors. Mostly red, a few green here and there and some of the GI were blue. Based on my reading of the manual it looks like I need to deduce what "string" of wiring to which board is causing the issues and bypass that board. Do I have to do all of this while the game is off? It's hella time consuming to move one wire, turn it on, turn it back off, etc.

What exactly am I looking for when testing each LED? Ones that don't turn on?

Bah. So now what?

Thanks, I was reading this thread and now with your post I understand better: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/woz-lighting-problems

Crap, just turned the game on and no lights at all now. My manual says there are no fuses for lighting. I checked the fuses and they look ok, all the lights are lit up next to them. The smaller power supply (which all purple wires go in to, obviously this looks like the DC power supply for the LED boards) was already unscrewed so I opened it up and there is one fuse in there which looks fine as well.

Suppose I should try and call JJP.
*Ok, called and left them a message. Call backs seem rare so I will probably call again tomorrow.

Thanks, just got a call from Lloyd and he basically reiterated what was said here. He had me check board power and it's 5v so that's good. I am going to do some bypassing of boards now and see what lights up.

Geesh, so many things going on here. I started tracing, unplugging and plugging back in. When I put the game in LED test and turn the color to red, for example, the lower half of the playfield is red. Some of the upper half is red, some off and some green. I haven't found a board yet that I can unplug or bypass (only can reach the cables so far) that changes the top half to the proper colors so I'm not sure where to go from here. I am going to call Frank in the morning and see if can relay exactly what I'm seeing so he might be able to point me in a better direction.

The big pic is the game on LED test with RED selected. The other pic is the one board that doesn't light up at all, interesting to see that sticker on there. It seems like it was replaced last year and that is a QC check?

I'm going to try and do some more plugging and unplugging. Btw, it looks like the main IO cable to W6 is just like any other cable and is very long, so having an extra one of those means you could probably bypass any board, anywhere. Mine is messed up so I am going to order two so I can do this in the future.

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Even when I am test mode (All LED on) do I need to turn off a board in the game settings if I bypass it?

Ok thanks... ugh, that's going to be a long process. Not sure I can even see the board settings when the playfield is up. Considering the 2.0 upgrade kit, install looks like a fun time.

Oh ok... because I'm still getting a LOT of mixed green and red in the test (and they reverse when I change the color to "green" in the test, but blue works fine). So I'm trying to start at the beginning and test out each board, bypass, etc. I am assuming that some board(s) is/are causing the red/green issue across the whole game and it's not just each board itself? I did replace one small board and it fixed the red/green issue with that one board, so it seems like it could be isolated to each board but that would mean many, many boards all failed at the same time. So it seems more likely that one or few boards are causing the issue? I'm not so well versed in how it all works in that kind of detail.

Ok, so everything should work in the test while bypassing boards without changing any of the settings in the game menu for which boards are bypassed? That is what I assumed, so that is how I was testing. But there seems to be some major issues as with all the bypassing and detection work I still have many mixed colors (green on when it should be red). I am not sure if that means each of those boards is bad or if it could be just one or two boards causing all of the upstream issues. I'm going to detect more just to see if I can figure it out but might just give up and go the 2.0 route.

HA, ok, thanks to you both. I'll get back down there with that helpful info. I'd sure love to save that $800 and put it towards a DI or PoTC.

OK, so the board that seems to be the issue is W2. If I bypass it by taking the output of 28 and going directly to 15 then all of the rest of the lights turn on in the sequence. So, in the ALL LED test with WHITE on everything is turned on except W2, the red and green were still messed up and blue is fine. I then disabled W2 in the GAME SETTINGS menu and went back to the test. White is the same, red and green are ALMOST fixed and blue is still fine. There are only two LEDs now that are backwards for red and green, it's 15 and the R in RESCUE. I did just swap 15 for a spare board to see if the red/green issue was the board, so that could be isolated (no idea if the board I swapped in was good or not, it was just in the cabinet when I got it). I can swap another for 15 but obviously the R in rescue is part of a larger board (W8, I believe).

So, I guess the question now is what would cause these two lights to be backwards. Is there still a board somewhere back in the chain that is an issue? Or would this be isolated to those two boards. I'll swap 15 just to see.

Edit - Also, when in ALL LED test with WHITE there are two lights which are "pinkish". I don't know if that is just a failing of the board coming, something to be expected, etc. It's the O in TOTO and the lion rollover. They are definitely on the white side, but have a very dark pink hue. Tried to get a pic but doesn't come out. Again, not sure if this is a symptom of something related but I did notice this (and some others had a very light blue hue to them). I know it's RGB combined so again, might be expected somewhat.

Ok. So I plugged everything back in:

W2 is not on at all. When I went in to white test many other lights are green and red upstream. So I bypassed it physical and programmatically. Then all other lights are whiteish.

When I test red and green I get messed up colors all along (just noticed I have two 14 boards, lol... One is 17). So ones like 14, 15, 16, 17, parts of W1, etc. You can see in pics.

Skipping the castle playfield gives similar results. All white lights work except the skipped ones, green and red still messed up.

14 is the first "off" board in the red green issue. I skipped it as well and no changes were seen upstream. W5 was a larger board with one off color so I skipped that as well, no change.

Changing 15 again to another spare board made no change.

All the bypassing I am doing doesn't seem to change the red green issue.

Pics are after all these changes were made. All boards that are disconnected are turned off in software.

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Ok, now I'm getting somewhere!

So, firstly, I scrolled down the LED list further than I had before and found a LED off (I think #1) that I hadn't turned off. So I turned that back on (it's in the chain and does work).

Then I made sure castle playfield related ones were still off and I pulled out 28 and put back in W2. W2 is definitely an issue.. when it is in the chain the lights end there. I then put W2 out of the chain as well (so both were out) and then all but one were working (it was #15 which was one of the ones I swapped with a "spare" earlier). I can tell some of my "spares" are used and bad, so I swapped another in there and it works!

Just wanted to give you an update, I am going to go add back in the castle playfield ones and confirm. I'll also see if I have a spare to test in 28. Then it sounds like the only board I might need is W2.

Is there some sort of board swap/repair/replace thing still? I thought I heard of that. If not, the board is $270 on JJP website, ouch. That one board might make the swap to the 2.0 worth it. Dang.

Thanks, definitely what I'm thinking on the board situation.

So to keep things isolated, I'm dealing with just one issue right now. I put 28 back in the rotation and it seems to work fine. I tried a few boards on it and it's good. However, 15 (which is right after 28) is always the wrong color (green/red). No matter which board I put in 15 or 28 it's always the same. If I remove 28 from the rotation then 15 is fine. I have 3-4 good working little boards so I tried several combinations across the playfield to just confirm and it seems like the issue is with position 15. So if it's not the board right before it, then what? The only other thought I have is cable.

Heh, Yea. I'm getting ready to pull the trigger. Thanks, I'll check it out tomorrow.

Wonder if JJP has a warranty on boards. WOZ2 board has as sticker that looks like it was QC'd in 2018.

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You are definitely right in 28 causing something. At least when I bypass it (and WOZ2, that is definitely bad... and I have the castle stuff still bypassed) all the rest of the lights work properly. When I add 28 back in then 15 is always wrong with the red/green. That is the only "wrong" board left and is only wrong when 28 is in.

I have 6 "spare" mini boards. No idea if any are good but at least 3 of them light up properly when used in other places on the playfield, so I am going with those 3 being good. None of those have number stickers on them. One has #27 on it (which has been replaced in the game since #27 does not have a sticker now), one gets really hot and doesn't light up and the other has a really dim light. Not sure how many spares came with the game either. I tried the 3 "good" boards in place of 28 and every single one does the same thing with 15 being wrong.

So, if the prior board physically isn't causing the issue (3 other boards do the same) I suppose it could be one of the cables? Or software related? I did just update code... not sure if the latest code, which is what is needed for the 2.0 lighting system, has some issue with the old lighting system? At this point it is narrowed down enough that I feel like I could call JJP again with specifics. Let me know if I should do that next.

Ideally, I'd like to wait on the 2.0 kit if I can... trying to buy a PoTC this weekend. Not sure if WOZ2 has any sort of warranty, but if it does then investing in a mini board or something like that would be worth to keep this going for a bit more.

Yeah, I popped off an email. It's a SE btw, #146 or something so WAY out of warranty. You would think a replacement board would at least have a year warranty but I also didn't buy this board so who knows what they'll say. If I have to contact the previous owner and have them help I might be able to do that too, in case that affects the warranty.

I'll also grab one from another position in the game and test. Sure seems 28 is bad. Ty

So get this... I grabbed board #10, for sure a known working board, and swapped it with #28 and even still #15 was the wrong color.

A known working board in the #28 position would solve #15 is what you all seemed to say, so what would still be causing this?

Also, I went ahead and removed WOZ5 from the chain since it was immediately before #28 just to see if that would make a difference, nope.

Yeah, I hear ya. I'm strongly considering it. I need to follow-up on the one year old board and see if there is any recourse there. That could change things a bit in the near term and also for board resale value. But yeah, I definitely want to go in that direction. I sorta want to figure out the problems, even just to know what is wrong. I have the 2.0 kit in my cart, waiting to be paid for.

Yes.

Correct. I will go again and confirm all of the boards that are not plugged in and what the game settings are for the boards just to double check. But, yes, that is what I believe to be true. As long as there is a board 28 in there (no matter what board) then 15 is the wrong green/red. Let me confirm everything just to be sure.

Yup, this is 100% the case. I went to confirm all other lights work and I did find that #9 was out (didn't notice if it was out before, it's at the bottom and probably would have been hard to notice) so I replaced it with one of the "maybe ok" boards and that solved #9 not working.

I then confirmed which boards were actually plugged in and which weren't and confirmed that in the settings (just the 3 for the castle and WOZ2). The only light that does not show red/green properly is #15 and I am fairly sure at least 2 of those little spare boards are working good and that when I replaced #28 a few times that should have solved it if #28 was causing the #15 problem.

I keep forgetting to try and swap cables, because if it is only the prior boards which can screw this up (or wrong settings in the system) then it should have been solved by now and cables seem the only constant (I've replaced 15 and 28 with various combinations of the "maybe ok" boards I have). I will do that just to rule that out. Is there anything else that could cause this?

I was reading the number wrong, FYI... it was board 6, not 9.

So, made sure all of the castle lights, #6 and #28 were removed from the menu and wiring. All lights that were left plugged in are properly lit in all colors.

I added back in #6 (using #10) and still all of the lights are lit properly. I used one of the spare boards in #6 and all of the lights work properly.

I added back in #28 and that is what makes #15 reversed. I tried the #10 board in #28, same thing. So, no matter if I have #6 removed or not, as long as I have any board in #28 that makes #15 wrong. Seems like #6 was just a board that was "out" and putting another board in there seems to solve that issue. Also seems unrelated to the #15 issue.

I swapped #15 out for another board, same issue. I tested both cables that go in and out of #28 (swapped each cable, one at a time) and that did not change anything either.

So, in conclusion it seems like, in isolation, nothing else seems to affect board #15 having an issue except having board #28 in the game. No matter what board is in #28 or #15 the issue still exists. I confirmed again which boards are off in the software and it is all correct.

Based on my limited experience it seems like this would stem either from the prior board being screwey or the software settings being incorrect. Is there anything else? Could it be a board further up the chain (prior)?

*Btw, JJP didn't get back to me on the W2 board warranty. So just waiting on that to know if I am going to 2.0 right away.

15 works without 28 in, I confirmed that. In fact, all other lights work with 28 out except castle (just didn't add those back in yet). I'll go do that now and if that works I'll test out the wires around 15. Thanks!

Everything is plugged back in except for 28 and WOZ2 and everything works fine.

I put 28 back in the mix and that gives 15 the red/green issue.

I swapped all of the cables surrounding 15 and 28 to see if that made a difference (using another cable from a bypassed off #10 board), it did not. I could not test a cable swap in to WOZ5 (it's a long one, I think I could rob the one from the castle playfield to test). I did bypass WOZ5 just to test and that didn't change anything.

So, back to you Bob

Thanks, I was not aware of this!

W2 doesn't work. It doesn't light up at all, ever, and when it is in the chain it screws up everything after it (when on WHITE in LED test the lights after W2 are all wrong... some blue, some green, some red). W2 is definitely bad.

I may not have noticed this before or only just had it happen now since everything is plugged back in but I see that both 15 and 28 are wrong in red/green. Like I said, I also tried bypassing W5 and W7 (individually, one at a time) just to see if something prior to W2 and 28 are causing the issue but nothing I seem to change solves the issue with 15 and 28.

Through all of the testing you've had me do I am pretty sure that W2 is bad. It seems like something else is causing 15 and 28 to be the wrong red/green color. If it isn't the cable and it isn't one of the boards immediately before a board, then what?

While I know there are no "known good" little boards that I have spare, I am fairly sure that at least 2 of them are in good shape. They don't have a number sticker (nor goo from where the sticker was, which others have) and they work when I put them in place of any other properly working little board. I say this because I did also swap these in for 15 and 28 to test and they did not solve the issue. So it seems, as we have also sort of touched on, that it isn't 15 or 28 that is the issue itself but something before.

Now, for all I know, W2 might have been the only issue that happened right now. As far as I know the red/green issue could have existed for some time and I never knew because it's 2 small lights out of the whole blinding array of lights and only at certain color combinations. Not that it makes a big difference. The only other real work I did on the machine (aside from having the castle playfield in and out a bunch of times) is to update the software. Doubt that makes a difference, but it's a variable.

Tell me if you want me to just call JJP at this point, happy to stop bugging you. I want to hit them up on that W2 board warranty anyhow.

I had a reply started here but I just heard back from JJP who stated the board in question was not purchased from them (odd?) and it would only have a 30 day warranty to the first owner of the machine. So there you go... gonna have to go to 2.0 as I'm not spending $270 on a single board.

Exactly... I find that a bit odd. In fact, I find it odd that JJP would know somehow the board was not purchased from them. Unless they are suggesting the sticker is not something they would put on there, which I could see. Either way they are saying 30 day warranty so it's far from that.

Yeah, Shannan told me the price of the swap. It's like $150 IF they can use the board you send back. So possibly still the full price, since there seems to be no way to know. Like others suggested, it seems like it's worth the initial outlay of money to hopefully be able to sell the 1.0 boards. Also, it concerns me that this board has some "2018" indication of inspection on it, either from someone reselling it or from JJP (who's to say here), and it failed. Plus I still haven't tracked down the full issue (15 and 28 are still wrong) and this seems like a way larger issue than just "the board before it is bad" so I bit the bullet and ordered the kit.