(Topic ID: 60046)

WOZ issues

By cfh

10 years ago


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  • Latest reply 10 years ago by LTG
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15
#1 10 years ago

I saw and reviewed WOZ some time ago and identified a few things that i thought would be issues to operators. i told whoever would listen (next to no one.) But turns out, those chicken have come home to roost.

Now understand that WOZ is an incredible machine. But frankly it's just not designed to be operated. Sorry Jack, but it's not. I mean it's the coolest pinball ever (aside from the theme of a chick trying to get red shoes), but there are things that should have been designed better.

First and foremost are the connectors. There are a zillion of them on WOZ, which in theory is good. But in reality, they are MUCH too small. I've been telling anyone that would listen for years that anything other than a .156" locking molex or a "mini-fit" style plug (Gottlieb system3) is inadequate for pinball playfields. The connector pins are too small, the wires too thin (to fit the too small pins), and the wires and/or pins break or crack at the solder joints. Williams demonstrated this with some system11 drop targets and the magnetic ball sensor on Twilight zone. You damn well would think people would learn from this mistake, but apparently that's not the case. (Stern for that matter makes this mistake too, so it's not just Jack.) WOZ has connectors on the EOS flipper switches, probably a bad idea too...

Light boards. They are still serial. Meaning if it fails upstream, ALL lights downstream don't work. I thought they were addressing this, but apparently not.

Speaking of light boards, they have non-replaceable fuses soldered to the board. REALLY? and to boot, they are either 2 amp or 15 amp. Seems like a wide range, and seems rather random. But a non-replaceable fuse??

Tim at the PHoF has been experiencing these problems in spades. He can't keep WOZ running due to these small but important issues. He's modifying the light boards with a replaceable 3AG style fuse and fuse holder. Seems silly that he has to do this. And all the small connectors are failing too.

I realize that this probably isn't an issue with home use games, but for a solid operator, these things should have been addressed! Hopefully Jack is more respondent than Stern (who doesn't listen to anyone, and continues to decrease the quality of their hardware at every corner, even when only one penny is involved) when it comes to issues such as these.

#2 10 years ago

Jacks already said he's moved production of LED boards to a different supplier.

#3 10 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

I mean it's the coolest pinball ever (aside from the theme of a chick trying to get red shoes),

Don't lie, you love those shoes!

#4 10 years ago
Quoted from j69:

Jacks already said he's moved production of LED boards to a different supplier.

Seems irrelevant who is making them.

There appear to be a few fundamental flaws here,from what Clay(?)has said

1. they are serial so any failures screw it all upstream of the fault

2. unless connector size is addressed,still same issues with that problem

3. agree that huge fuse range is a joke.at the uk pinball party we had a solenoid melt the plastic big style and smoke the place out cos some tit had put a 15amp fuse where there should have been a 2.5amp in place.15a is A LOT of current in a pin,or anything for that matter

#5 10 years ago

Lets not forget the flicker on the screens.At least from ones I have seen here in the uk

IIRC that was reported to JJP a year ago with the guy offering help but no reply

#6 10 years ago

I must admit I played it at the show also and didn't notice the flicker. Played fine and I'm guessing three days solid on free play is as hard a life as your going to get, although can't speak for long term.

#7 10 years ago
Quoted from Muppet_Man:

I must admit I played it at the show also and didn't notice the flicker. Played fine and I'm guessing three days solid on free play is as hard a life as your going to get, although can't speak for long term.

when you look closer it was there on the game all weekend

TBH its prob like anything,once you notice something it allways seems more "in your face"

still does not deter from the fact it is there.still

#8 10 years ago
Quoted from Muppet_Man:

I must admit I played it at the show also and didn't notice the flicker. Played fine and I'm guessing three days solid on free play is as hard a life as your going to get, although can't speak for long term.

300 odd plays aint that much for a commercial pin

#9 10 years ago

A Pin like WOZ at a crowded show could easily take 300 plays per day
(ask Markmon about his MM at NW pinball show)

#10 10 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

A Pin like WOZ at a crowded show could easily take 300 plays per day
(ask Markmon about his MM at NW pinball show)

Even if it was 800 plays all weekend,all I was saying is that for a commercial pin that is not a lot

poi

#11 10 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

Tim at the PHoF has been experiencing these problems in spades.

When I needed some assistance with ball traps on WOZ last Sunday, I told Tim I need some help over at WOZ, Tim ask, "is it broke" and said the ball is trapped under the sling. He hung his head and said "SHIT".

I could tell that the game has been a pain in the ass for him.

#12 10 years ago

You gotta admit that you're an early adopter into a new product line. There are going to be mistakes and problems. The perfect time to buy a woz is in a year or so.

#13 10 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

I saw and reviewed WOZ some time ago and identified a few things that i thought would be issues to operators. i told whoever would listen (next to no one.) But turns out, those chicken have come home to roost.

Now understand that WOZ is an incredible machine. But frankly it's just not designed to be operated. Sorry Jack, but it's not. I mean it's the coolest pinball ever (aside from the theme of a chick trying to get red shoes), but there are things that should have been designed better.

First and foremost are the connectors. There are a zillion of them on WOZ, which in theory is good. But in reality, they are MUCH too small. I've been telling anyone that would listen for years that anything other than a .156" locking molex or a "mini-fit" style plug (Gottlieb system3) is inadequate for pinball playfields. The connector pins are too small, the wires too thin (to fit the too small pins), and the wires and/or pins break or crack at the solder joints. Williams demonstrated this with some system11 drop targets and the magnetic ball sensor on Twilight Zone. You damn well would think people would learn from this mistake, but apparently that's not the case. (Stern for that matter makes this mistake too, so it's not just Jack.) WOZ has connectors on the EOS flipper switches too, probably a bad idea too...

Light boards. This is a joke on WOZ. They are still serial. Meaning if it fails upstream, ALL lights downstream don't work. I thought they were addressing this, but apparently not.

Speaking of light boards, they have non-replaceable fuses soldered to the board. REALLY? and to boot, they are either 2 amp or 15 amp. Seems like a wide range, and seems rather random. But a non-replaceable fuse??

Tim at the PHoF has been experiencing these problems in spades. He can't keep WOZ running due to these small but important issues. He's modifying the light boards with a replaceable 3AG style fuse and fuse holder. Seems silly that he has to do this. And all the small connectors are failing too.

I realize that this probably isn't an issue with home use games, but for a solid operator, these things should have been addressed! Hopefully Jack is more respondent than Stern (who doesn't listen to anyone, and continues to decrease the quality of their hardware at every corner, even when only one penny is involved) when it comes to issues such as these.

Eye-opening; thanks for this location durability insight Clay.

#14 10 years ago

Eye opening indeed...The whole replacement of boards and sending off for more.. and what you mention above is absurd... hopefully the long waiters just now getting machines won't have to deal with what you describe...it's so stupid.. one board goes out and the whole "chain" goes out (serial) rendering the game unplayable for a long time (till you can get to it and receive replacement parts)..
Hopefully JJP will get enough cash from their learning experience (WOZ).. to still make it.. their basic design, ingenuity, and creativity is solid otherwise....

#15 10 years ago

Did you open a trouble ticket?

#16 10 years ago

Maybe Tim has a prototype.

#17 10 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Maybe Tim has a prototype

It could be, it is missing parts .

#18 10 years ago
Quoted from lordloss:

There are going to be mistakes and problems. The perfect time to buy a woz is in a year or so.

That is IF the factory makes correct revisions to the assemblies involved. If they simply pick another supplier and build to the same part print then you have the same conditions.

#19 10 years ago

I should also add that Jack does care and does address things in a timely manner. Tim says though since WOZ has been at the PHoF, it has been one problem after another. But Jack's tech staff is always there to help, even on weekends and at 11pm at night. That's great, they care. This is unlike Stern which only answers tech phone calls from 2:00pm to 2:01pm weekdays.

WOZ is a new system and it will take time to make it robust. But the connector issue they should have seen coming. I took one look at the game and knew that was going to be a problem. (Those Gottlieb sys3 style "mini-fit" connectors are the answer here.) And no board should ever have non-replaceable soldered in place fuses.

#20 10 years ago

I dont like the fact that the LED boards daisy chain either. My guess is this was the best or easiest way for them to do it considering the way they are controlling the lights. A non-replacable fuse is rediculous also, i wonder if all thats wrong with peoples boards that are "going out" just have a blown fuse on them..

#21 10 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

This is unlike Stern which only answers tech phone calls from 2:00pm to 2:01pm weekdays.

I'm throwing the BS flag here. Sure Stern has set tech support hours but that is perfectly acceptable for and established business. I have called them tons of times and they always answer the phone. Why do you have to bring Stern into this conversation at all? This thread is about WoZ and you have taken multiple untrue swipes at Stern. This is how fanboyism is created.

#22 10 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

I'm throwing the BS flag here. Sure Stern has set tech support hours but that is perfectly acceptable for and established business. I have called them tons of times and they always answer the phone. Why do you have to bring Stern into this conversation at all? This thread is about WoZ and you have taken multiple untrue swipes at Stern. This is how fanboyism is created.

He owns a lot of Stern machines. The 2:00 to 2:01 comment was pure sarcasm that anyone, especially a cash paying customer is entitled to.

#23 10 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

First and foremost are the connectors...they are MUCH too small...
Light boards. They are still serial. Meaning if it fails upstream, ALL lights downstream don't work. I thought they were addressing this, but apparently not...
Speaking of light boards, they have non-replaceable fuses soldered to the board.

Have you discussed these three issues directly with Jack? You've made some good points here and I think we'd all like to see these issues addressed.

#24 10 years ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

Have you discussed these three issues directly with Jack? You've made some good points here and I think we'd all like to see these issues addressed.

They are into production and have shipped hundreds of games. Its not like they can address these issues in software. Short of a really expensive board handout and making owners swap dozens of connectors, these issues will are here to stay. Maybe late production WoZ could see changes or if not hopefully The Hobbit...

#25 10 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

They are into production and have shipped hundreds of games. Its not like they can address these issues in software. Short of a really expensive board handout and making owners swap dozens of connectors, these issues will are here to stay. Maybe late production WoZ could see changes or if not hopefully The Hobbit...

I think you're right, the issues are here to stay for the games that have shipped already. However, if these issues are as serious as the OP claims they are for operators putting the games on location then JJP will need to do something about them. Why continue to build games with the same hardware if there are known problems? The design of the games must continue to evolve.

I'm mean, let's take the connectors for example. Maybe I'm being naive but let's say they've got a few boxes of them in the factory. A decision is made, they're shipped back to the supplier so someone else can use them and they get some of the Gottlieb sys3 connectors as the op has suggested instead. They could be fitting them to games from next week and going forward.

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#26 10 years ago

Have the connectors on WOZ proven a legitimate problem yet, or is this just a prediction at this time? (Based on prior history and experience, I understand.) I do remember someone with similar comments quite a while ago... and some concerns over using spade lugs.

#27 10 years ago
Quoted from Sunfox:

Have the connectors on WOZ proven a legitimate problem yet, or is this just a prediction at this time? (Based on prior history and experience, I understand.) I do remember someone with similar comments quite a while ago... and some concerns over using spade lugs.

It would be news to me. I have not heard a single comment about the connectors failing.

#28 10 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

It would be news to me

Not every issue gets filtered though DCFAN . I know of several issues that do not come up on Pinside .

#29 10 years ago
Quoted from Sunfox:

Have the connectors on WOZ proven a legitimate problem yet, or is this just a prediction at this time?

At the bottom of Clay's initial post above:

Quoted from cfh:

Tim at the PHoF has been experiencing these problems in spades. He can't keep WOZ running due to these small but important issues. He's modifying the light boards with a replaceable 3AG style fuse and fuse holder. Seems silly that he has to do this. And all the small connectors are failing too.

I realize that this probably isn't an issue with home use games, but for a solid operator, these things should have been addressed!...

#30 10 years ago

Thanks, didn't notice that part. Haven't heard of similar issues yet, but hopefully he's detailing the exact problems he's seeing for JJP.

#31 10 years ago

I have not heard of anyone having trouble with the connectors yet. This "information" is being spewed by well known JJP hater EZsleeze over on RGP and he has posted this link in his usual manner.

#32 10 years ago
Quoted from playernumber4:

I have not heard of anyone having trouble with the connectors yet. This "information" is being spewed by well known JJP hater EZsleeze over on RGP and he has posted this link in his usual manner.

Technically EZ is saying he's reposting Clay's post (since it's to his purposes). Yes, that notation is a little buried, and I was confused for a while trying to figure out why EZ and Clay seemed to be the same person...

#33 10 years ago

Thank you Clay

#34 10 years ago
Quoted from Sunfox:

Have the connectors on WOZ proven a legitimate problem yet, or is this just a prediction at this time? (Based on prior history and experience, I understand.) I do remember someone with similar comments quite a while ago... and some concerns over using spade lugs.

{Teevee game show chime noise here} That would be me about the spade lugs and it was poo-pooed so I figured operators will let JJP know if it becomes a problem. After all, what in the hell do I know about pinball machines?

#35 10 years ago
Quoted from playernumber4:

I have not heard of anyone having trouble with the connectors yet.

From reading the post, Clay is getting his information from operators, most of it from Tim Arnold it seems.

Tim, Clay and MrBally know their stuff. I really wouldn't just dismiss their suggestions and would instead hope Jack listens as it can only make his product better in the future.

#36 10 years ago

I'm not sure he said the connectors actually failed but they had a high probability of failing, and he also said same as stern. Has Tim actually had connectors fail Clay?

#37 10 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

And no board should ever have non-replaceable soldered in place fuses.

I agree with that 100%. And I'd also like to add that any board that has fuses should have the value of the fuse silkscreened onto the board.

#38 10 years ago

Captive fuses on a board is not unusual in the World of Hi-End Hi-Fi. We use them on valve amps as a last stage protection. Basically, if this fuse blows, it's because without it, the unit would have self destructed, and just being able to pop another in would have been self deprecating. If they go, you're amp REALLY needs checking before you even think of fitting another fuse. So I wonder if these two are for the same reason.

#39 10 years ago

Some have siad WoZ is high-end so you may be on to something.

#40 10 years ago
Quoted from jimjim66:

From reading the post, Clay is getting his information from operators, most of it from Tim Arnold it seems.

Clay obviously gets input from Marvin's Mechanical Museum too (MMMs WOZ was down the other day also).

http://www.marvin3m.com/

#41 10 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

I'm not sure he said the connectors actually failed but they had a high probability of failing, and he also said same as stern. Has Tim actually had connectors fail Clay?

Round Deux.

At the bottom of Clay's initial post above:

Quoted from cfh:

Tim at the PHoF has been experiencing these problems in spades. He can't keep WOZ running due to these small but important issues. He's modifying the light boards with a replaceable 3AG style fuse and fuse holder. Seems silly that he has to do this. And all the small connectors are failing too.

I realize that this probably isn't an issue with home use games, but for a solid operator, these things should have been addressed!...

#42 10 years ago

Are these small connectors used every where or just on the RGB light boards?

#43 10 years ago
Quoted from NM:

Round Deux.
At the bottom of Clay's initial post above:

It's not clear if its just the light boards or the connectors or both. One of the reasons I ask is he said the same thing about stern pins and I haven't heard of the connectors being a real issue on sterns either. Doesn't mean it isn't an issue, just haven't heard anyone but clay complain about it.

#44 10 years ago
Quoted from McCune:

Not every issue gets filtered though DCFAN . I know of several issues that do not come up on Pinside .

I am no insider but I do read the WOZ group and Pinside and I know a couple WOZ owners and nobody has said their connectors are failing that I have read or heard. Clay has been expressing concern that the connectors would fail, but I do not see any reason to expect them to fail anymore at an arcade as compared to a home unless the operator is messing with them.

#45 10 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

It's not clear if its just the light boards or the connectors or both. One of the reasons I ask is he said the same thing about stern pins and I haven't heard of the connectors being a real issue on sterns either. Doesn't mean it isn't an issue, just haven't heard anyone but clay complain about it.

Not sure what exactly in the original statement quoted below doesn't seem clear (as to both issues existing on Tim's game), but I'll step aside now to see if Clay feels it necessary to confirm or clarify his statement.

Quoted from cfh:

Tim at the PHoF has been experiencing these problems in spades. He can't keep WOZ running due to these small but important issues. He's modifying the light boards with a replaceable 3AG style fuse and fuse holder. Seems silly that he has to do this. And all the small connectors are failing too.

#46 10 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

I am no insider but I do read the WOZ group and Pinside and I know a couple WOZ owners and nobody has said their connectors are failing that I have read or heard. Clay has been expressing concern that the connectors would fail, but I do not see any reason to expect them to fail anymore at an arcade as compared to a home unless the operator is messing with them.

There is a huge difference in the amount of plays that a pin will see on location as opposed to home use. The connectors on slings and flipper coils being fasted by connectors instead of direct solder joints just sounds like a bad idea.

#47 10 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

I am no insider but I do read the WOZ group and Pinside and I know a couple WOZ owners and nobody has said their connectors are failing that I have read or heard. Clay has been expressing concern that the connectors would fail, but I do not see any reason to expect them to fail anymore at an arcade as compared to a home unless the operator is messing with them.

Fun fact

WOZ owners share with non WOZ owners because fanboys can at times be snitches. So the WOZ group is actually a month behind the "underground Pinside". Info moves without this forum & it's usually more "real" than the fluff posted publicly.

Jim had pics of PF wear almost a month ago but kept his honor to protect the nuts of owners until the PHOF visit.

I mentioned trouble in paradise 2 months ago & a certain JJP employee called me a liar. It took great restraint to not give names & specifics but rest assured shit happens, even with WOZ NIB. Now we hear "Prototype, old code, trouble ticket" & other jabs from the jokes of the denial campaign.

No matter, it's pinball. What man makes breaks!

#48 10 years ago

Dude you are the KING of thumbs down

Are you a rebel lol

image.jpgimage.jpg

#49 10 years ago
Quoted from smassa:

... The connectors on slings and flipper coils being fasted by connectors instead of direct solder joints just sounds like a bad idea.

This is from Williams manufacturing. Every MB, RFM, SWE1, CC, and certainly other late WPC-95 games that I can't think of at the moment, used connectors on the coils, not directly soldered. You don't hear of problems with these games. It's a non-issue in my view.

My initial thoughts on the 0.100 connectors through-out the game were the same as Clay's, not a wise choice. Years of dealing with them on early Bally/Stern boards can only result in one conclusion, not a good idea. With that said though, we really have no idea how these connectors will hold up on the serial light boards. It's a completely different use, and may very well hold up just fine for the serial data.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#50 10 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Clay obviously gets input from Marvin's Mechanical Museum too (MMMs WOZ was down the other day also).
http://www.marvin3m.com/

I was at Marvin's tonight and half of the inserts on WOZ were dead......

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