(Topic ID: 107278)

WoZ (IMO) is the best pin ever made...


By iamabearsfan

4 years ago



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#1 4 years ago

WoZ2.JPG

To start off with...IMO stands for "In my opinion". But I thought I owed it to the JJP team and others to take some time to write some initial feedback on the machine and JJP.

First off I chose to put this machine at my new business. I just opened a team building business in the west burbs called Newton's Cube (www.newtonscube.com). We serve a lot of different types of teams and I thought the WoZ would fit the spirit of our product.

We had our ribbon cutting the other night and we had about 150 people come here. I would say of those, I had at least 20 come up to me and ask me about the WoZ. They were stunned on how good it looked, LCD, gameplay, etc.

Let me back up the clock though. I unpackaged the pin, put it together played half a dozen games. Then turned off the machine. Turned it on the next day and it was dead as a doornail. After several rounds of boards with Lloyd and Ken we finally got it working. But I have to say that JJP was VERY responsive and worked through the issue correctly. That to me was the important part. How they responded when there was a problem.

Anyway, I decided to break down the game into functional areas....

1) Aesthetics: 9.9

I cannot think of a better looking pin overall. The cleared cabinet is nothing but stunning. Then when you look at the green legs with how it compliments the playfield and you say WOW! The only thing that keeps it from being a 10 is how it looks when it is off. The black screen looks kind of funky when it is off.....but should I even evaluate a machine based on how it looks when it is off anyway?

2) Workmanship: 10

Sorry folks, but to date, I have not seen any manufacturer match the workmanship of this machine. Not even close.

3) Innovation: 10

The LCD and OS platform are second to none. The LCD is much more than gameplay. To have the manual at your fingertips. To have the menu system so easy to use because you are working with a full screen. Full color for the menu and game play. Lastly, the status report screens are really helpful. Need I go on? It is in a class of its own. I also think some of the playfield pieces are very unique. In particular the two ball save functions are really cool. It adds a very unique and challenging part to the game.

4) Ruleset: 10

OMG, I just can't get over how deep this ruleset is. The stacking of modes and the mapping of how to get there is well thought out and incredibly complex. It is clear that MANY man hours were spent thinking through how to do this. I hope they spun some video during their design sessions. Years from now it would be really cool to hear at an Expo some of the debates during this part of production.

5) Lighting: 8 (10 if you get the GI add-on kit)

The main reason it gets an 8 is because of the GI. I like to play pinball in darker settings. At the office it works because even with the lights off, the emergency lights still are on. But that is good in this case. When one adds the after market GI lighting kit, all is good.

Now the rest of the lighting? STUNNING! That is the single thing that sticks out the most to me. It is incredible. No other words can describe it. And looking at the machine for 30 minutes doesn't do it justice. You need to get deeper into the ruleset to see all of the cool things they did with those RGB LED's! And yes, I had to set the ball count way high just to see this! I sure haven't "earned" it yet There is so much more to this machine's lighting than I saw at the Expos.

6) Speed of the game: 9

This is an interesting topic to me. I get it. Some people like more open playfields and like faster gameplay. BUT, WoZ is much faster than what I read on Pinside. At least in my opinion. There are times it is slower, but over all the game flows quite well. I think a lot of the confusion in this area is that because of the double upper playfields you lose sight of the ball. But it is still moving! Bottom line I think the game is plenty fast. I sure wouldn't want to give up the content of the playfield....then we would maybe be in the spot we are with TH? There is a hard balance here for the designers. Hard to please everyone.

7) Theme: 9

I know, I know. Some people give WoZ a 1. Makes them want to throw up. For me though, it has really grown on me. There is so much to that story line that has allowed for a really deep ruleset. It is also a timeless and family oriented theme. So to me, those are very important. It is clearly the first pin my wife really likes.....and that is saying a ton! I have two teenage boys. Not a problem at with anything on this pin. The only real big problem is they are both pissed that I put it at my work!

Support: 10

Like I said at the top of this post. Their support has been second to none. They are there both on the phone and on the boards helping people. You get people that know the game and take a ton of pride in their work. I will also say that the tools in the software to help diagnose issues will be a huge help to that support team.

9) JJP as a company: 8 and going up (time can heal this one)

This is a tricky one. It is clear that in the past there was communication issues with Jack and crew. Especially during the last six months of WoZ. All of us were dragged through a long process. BUT I will say that starting a company, especially a pinball company, has to be VERY hard. I am not making excuses for lack of communication, but I am taking into account what is involved. Jack was in a very tough spot. He clearly had supply chain issues that haunted him. He also has some design issues with the LED boards. I think several times they thought they had the problem licked and it wasn't. Bottom line is I think they are communicating better with TH and are trying to listen better to the community at large. They clearly have some of the best employees in the industry. Their product is the best there is....sorry, I just don't see a close second (maybe Dutch?).

Let me conclude by saying that I don't hand out 10's in anything very often. I am fairly critical of a lot of things. Especially with technology. I have been a CIO for 15 years and have seen things done crappy and things done well. WoZ was done correctly. The JJP team should be very proud of the work they have done on that machine.

Ok, remember, this is "IMO", so please keep any comments civil and all. I just wanted to put out another perspective of the game and give credit where credit is due.

Dave

#3 4 years ago

Love my WOZ as well. Great game!

#4 4 years ago

I agree with you. But looking at your gameroom pic, you'd think it's the only pin ever made.

Prepare to get flamed by those who don't agree, and thanks for the great post!

#5 4 years ago

I think woz gets a beat down for some silly reasons. Mostly theme I assume. It is an excellent game that NOTHING else plays like. You get those modes going and stacked and it is pure fun. The other night I had 3 balls spinning around the house at the same damn time. IT was insanely fun. The light show has set the bar. I LOVE the under play field hidden flashers and the way that they wave. I absolutely love the music changes wether you like the music or not. It is theme integration at its finest. I have no complaints. MY GI is perfectly acceptable. ON my very very early LE I had to add the kit but, on my late production standard I own now the GI is absolutely fine and looks great no kit needed. WOZ is in its own league just plays differently than games we are used too. Some pinheads must have the perfect shots or flow. Woz is not really that just different. Sometimes I have thought of selling it again but, then I play it and say nope. I know I will want it back.

#6 4 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

I agree with you. But looking at your gameroom pic, you'd think it's the only pin ever made.
Prepare to get flamed by those who don't agree, and thanks for the great post!

That is my work lobby. Home basement has four pins....MM, IJ, CV, and TZ. If I brought another pin to my work my kids would disown me

#7 4 years ago

I find it strange that you give such an overwhelming review to a game that was BROKEN after the initial first plays. IMO that is a bit contradictory to the title of this thread "WOZ is the greatest pin ever made"!

8K plus games shouldn't have any issues after they are unboxed. It's just insane on how low expectations are for many pin enthusiasts.

#8 4 years ago

Best to play this game in a home environment to truly understand the rules, the strategy, hear the sounds and the many different options to tackle the objectives. The light show combinations from stacking various modes is something truly special. It "is" diferent than anything else out there. Id give your post a 10 except its all been said before, but because its so good, it can be said once again, nice summary.

#9 4 years ago
Quoted from iamabearsfan:

Turned it on the next day and it was dead as a doornail. After several rounds of boards with Lloyd and Ken we finally got it working.

Did they ship these back and forth to you? This would of frustrated me to no end if
this happened to me, having my brand new game unplayable for weeks...
Glad you like your Woz though.

#10 4 years ago
Quoted from robotron911:

I find it strange that you give such an overwhelming review to a game that was BROKEN after the initial first plays. IMO that is a bit contradictory to the title of this thread "WOZ is the greatest pin ever made"!
8K plus games shouldn't have any issues after they are unboxed. It's just insane on how low expectations are for many pin enthusiasts.

HHmmmm, I have to disagree. There are a ton of reasons why something as a pinball can have issues after traveling a thousand miles and put through many hands. I also drive a Mercedes that has had issues. They are rare, but it is how Mercedes handles issues that is key. To think 100% of the machines that are going to be delivered by any pinball manufacturer to not have issues is just a pipe dream at best. I don't care how much you pay for it. It is a real risk in the product we are buying. Compaq servers get burned in at the factory. For many years they were considered the best money could buy. But some still came DOA. So I have no problem giving a good review to something I had an initial problem with. If anything, the response from Lloyd and Ken made me respect JJP more. But again, I started the post with IMO.

#11 4 years ago

First, congrats on finding a way to buy a pin as a business write off.
Second, thanks for the review.
I have no way to see one of these in person and was wondering if it lived up to the hype.
I am very anxious to see what JJP & Lawlor come up with together - should be very interesting.

#12 4 years ago
Quoted from limelime20:

Did they ship these back and forth to you? This would of frustrated me to know end if
this happened to me, having my brand new game unplayable for weeks...Glad you like your Woz though.

I had the boards two days later. Easy to install. Fixed. End of story. Frustrating? Sure. But it was fixed, that was the key to me.

#13 4 years ago

While I may disagree on it being the best ever I would say it's a good pin especially once you get past the initial break in period. Seems most have a few parts that go out quickly then it's solid after that from what I've seen.

It looks great in your game room. Almost like the Gameroom was colored to match it (happy coincidence I'm sure). Bravo to you for putting on out there for the public to play as well.

#14 4 years ago

Jack crammed a lot of goodies, beautiful art and great theme integration into WOZ! I am afraid he set the bar very high and then claimed it will be his worst game.
Gunna be hard to top! not sure TH can get it done, but Pats game might.

#15 4 years ago

How can workmanship be a 10/10, with near-DOA issues, out of the box?

-Mark

#16 4 years ago
Quoted from marcos:

How can workmanship be a 10/10, with near-DOA issues, out of the box?
-Mark

See my post above. When you ship something with fragile parts half way across the country, sh*t happens. It was packaged well and all, but stuff happens when you move something as complicated as a pinball machine. Heck, I have had issues moving a pinball machine from upstairs to downstairs.

I guess my expectations are more realistic than others. Maybe it is my IT background. I get that things aren't perfect. My expectations are that people are doing what makes sense (i.e. burn-ins, packaging things well, securing stuff, using the correct hardware for the task). To me, all of those things were done.....but even though there was an issue, it was resolved. I still stand by my 10/10.....because I have realistic expectations when someone is manufacturing something as complicated as a pinball machine.

#17 4 years ago

Thanks for the review. I'd love to get my hands on a WOZ someday in the used market.

#18 4 years ago
Quoted from iamabearsfan:

6) Speed of the game: 9
This is an interesting topic to me. I get it. Some people like more open playfields and like faster gameplay. BUT, WoZ is much faster than what I read on Pinside. At least in my opinion. There are times it is slower, but over all the game flows quite well. I think a lot of the confusion in this area is that because of the double upper playfields you lose sight of the ball. But it is still moving! Bottom line I think the game is plenty fast. I sure wouldn't want to give up the content of the playfield....then we would maybe be in the spot we are with TH? There is a hard balance here for the designers. Hard to please everyone.

The layout is also much, much better than people realize if you spend time with the game. It definitely keeps the game moving along. Just a couple of examples:

When you miss munchkin mode, raise the upper right flipper and it'll return to the left flipper 95% of the time. If you're in multiball you can cradle on the right flipper and keep returning to munchkin land until you make it. Key to getting to munchkin multiball.

If the game is set up 'as intended' a hard cradle separation from the left flipper will go into the spinner to start the crystal ball mode or just to safely buy you time.

A hard cradle separation from the right flipper will go into the HODC 'collect' buying you some time to make shots. A soft cradle separation will go into the throne room, which is key in EMCB

I mention the multiballs because that's what the game is all about: stacking multiballs, and the layout works very, very well for moving the game along.

#19 4 years ago

I can understand wires/connectors wiggling loose, or socketed chips that need to be pressed on after shipping, or even forklift damage or the machine being dropped, but your issue sounds like it had nothing to do with bumps along the way.

I also do IT for a living, and have two growing pinball businesses as part-time jobs.

Yesterday, I had to figure out why several brand new OptiPlex PC's from Dell were DOA, in the box. It ended up being either poor workmanship or quality control: dead power supplies and system boards. I'm sure Dell just blames their subcontractor, but it's a complete waste of time for me as customer to figure out their issues, and then box them up and return them. I suppose I am fortunate they are in boxes that weigh 15 pounds, and not 300!

That being said, bring that machine over to Joliet tonight, and we'll work out the kinks for ya'.

-Mark

#20 4 years ago
Quoted from iamabearsfan:

That is my work lobby. Home basement has four pins....MM, IJ, CV, and TZ. If I brought another pin to my work my kids would disown me

So you brought the one pin that has a children's theme to the work lobby? You're an awful parent.

#21 4 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

So you brought the one pin that has a children's theme to the work lobby? You're an awful parent.

Let's be clear. I am a selfish parent. My kids have already pointed that out to me. They consider it child abuse to not have brought that home.

I just look at dorothy a little different than they do

#22 4 years ago

I agree with OP 100%

#23 4 years ago

If my WOZ evaporated from existence I'd replace it with a new WOZ. The game is that good. I agree that it plays different from every other game out there. The thing that ties it all together is the rules. Keith (and Ted, and company) outdid themselves when they put this thing together. Did they have some issues? Sure they did. But the result is nothing short of spectacular in my eyes. It is just such a fun game to play.

#24 4 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

If my WOZ evaporated from existence I'd replace it with a new WOZ. The game is that good. I agree that it plays different from every other game out there. The thing that ties it all together is the rules. Keith (and Ted, and company) outdid themselves when they put this thing together. ..................... the result is nothing short of spectacular in my eyes. It is just such a fun game to play.

Spectacular indeed. A pin to own for sure.

#25 4 years ago
Quoted from iamabearsfan:

I just look at dorothy a little different than they do

Comments like that could make this thread go downhill fast!

DD.jpg

#26 4 years ago

My WOZ and I have a love hate relationship...I really love the game, but I really hate that I am at work not playing it!

I do agree that workmanship should be like 9 or so. There is always room for improvement.

#27 4 years ago

I could sit and type all the reasons, but let me just say that it is not even in my top 100.

#28 4 years ago
Quoted from iamabearsfan:

Let's be clear. I am a selfish parent. My kids have already pointed that out to me. They consider it child abuse to not have brought that home.
I just look at dorothy a little different than they do

Go get another one for the house. Problem solved.

#29 4 years ago

How many have been shipped and out of those how many have had problems outta the box? There were 7 shipped around me from friends and 6 out of 7 had issues, not good odds there. None of the 7 are still owned by the original owners, that being said if we all liked the same games things would be pretty boring, I'm glad that you are digging yours.

#30 4 years ago
Quoted from misfitdart:

How many have been shipped and out of those how many have had problems outta the box? There were 7 shipped around me from friends and 6 out of 7 had issues, not good odds there. None of the 7 are still owned by the original owners, that being said if we all liked the same games things would be pretty boring, I'm glad that you are digging yours.

Depends on when they got them. A lot of the problems were fixed by the start of this year. I got mine pretty early and had to do a lot of RGB replacing. And I'm not upset about it at all...it's what taught me about fixing pinball machines. Now my WOZ is solid - absolutely no issues at all.

#31 4 years ago

fun game. I have about 200 plays on mine (received about 3 weeks ago). I Love stacking strategies in games. I melted the witch for the first time the other night and scored in the 700 thousands. Super fun.

I have yet to get a score over a million. Is anyone else scoring that high regularly?

#32 4 years ago

I agree it's my favorite pin too. I've owned upwards of twenty-five pins over the years and played many more. Currently there's six in my game room at home and I have a Hobbit Smaug Gold SE on order. I don't need to say why it's my favorite all time pin as you've pretty much summed up my feelings about it so I won't waste time explaining.

As far as problems out of the box I did have to adjust the height of the drop target and one flipper coil came loose. Other than that it's been rock solid.

If you are so inclined and want to make the pin even more special and more 'you' there's plenty of 'mods' available on the internet to purchase. I added castle walls (Back Alley Creations), lighted winkie guard drop target kit (Mezel Mods), Munchkin 'Cliffy' protector, lollypop targets (JJP), had the play field protector factory installed and on order the Throne Room Fire Pots (also Mezel Mods). These additions to my ECLE make it more 'mine' if you understand. I even enjoy just looking at it...D'oh!

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

#33 4 years ago
Quoted from TZBen:

fun game. I have about 200 plays on mine (received about 3 weeks ago). I Love stacking strategies in games. I melted the witch for the first time the other night and scored in the 700 thousands. Super fun.
I have yet to get a score over a million. Is anyone else scoring that high regularly?

Massive scores became a lot harder in 4.0 (I think it was 4). There was a scoring bug with the Haunted Multiball that would cause HUGE scores (incorrect multiplier). Once Keith fixed that the scores dropped down and became a lot more balanced.

He also got vindictive one day and removed the skillshot bug where you could soft plunge, get the ball to the lower right flipper and take a nice easy shot to the lit BALL target. So you have to actually earn CB modes now. (yes, you could also hit the skill shot as intended from the upper right flipper to the BALL target, but seriously when I try that the left outlane is all I'm going to hit).

-3
#34 4 years ago

It's not really my cup of tea.

But I had no idea there were so many friends of Dorothy here!

#35 4 years ago

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. However, here are my top WOZ annoyances:
1) There is ZERO grace period on the ball saver. If the light is out a millisecond before draining, you are done. I've cursed it many times.
2) The witch hurry-up doesn't pause while you are on the castle playfield...so if you miss the witch and go to the VUK instead the counter keeps going...do I flip on the castle playfield or let it fall off so I can finish the witch off?
3) That damn castle playfield...you get up there after knocking the guards down and drain off you have to knock the guards down again. It becomes really frustrating after capturing Dorothy and spelling Rescue, opening the door finally and draining off it. Have to start over on the guards and door...and really hope you don't accidentally hit the rescue loop to add a ball...now you have to spell rescue again and open the door! Rescue multiball is extremely difficult to start!
4) It seems that every time I get rainbow spelled locks or EC multiball is lit...so, I get stuck hitting the ramp and trying to juggle twister and multiple balls. One or both always seems to be lost for me.
5) Fireball frenzy always seems to start with some other multiball for me...good luck avoiding the "fire" shots with multiple balls!
6) The spinning house hangs low on a corner and hits the ball if both in the right place...anyone else notice this?
7) During Melt the Witch, like clockwork, I always drain a ball after locking one in the VUK. ALWAYS.

That said...boy this is a fantastic game! I've wanted to slam a sledgehammer through it many times, but challenge is a good thing. I love it!

#36 4 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. However, here are my top WOZ annoyances:

6) The spinning house hangs low on a corner and hits the ball if both in the right place...anyone else notice this?

I don't think that is normal. Something may be mounted wrong.

#37 4 years ago

Ha...thats a good summation too Pimp77. (I dont have the #6 problem however)

#38 4 years ago

Ok, can I complain too. The left side save is horribly hard compared to the Toto save. I don't even know why I try. Most times I can't even spell RAINBOW. It gives the false hope to the player. It just makes the death of the ball hurt that much more.

#39 4 years ago
Quoted from iamabearsfan:

Ok, can I complain too. The left side save is horribly hard compared to the Toto save. I don't even know why I try. Most times I can't even spell RAINBOW. It gives the false hope to the player. It just makes the death of the ball hurt that much more.

I agree...for my machine the middle target (I guess it the "place" target) is really tough to get. I've beat TNPLH once to win my ball back and it felt great!

#40 4 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. However, here are my top WOZ annoyances:
1) There is ZERO grace period on the ball saver. If the light is out a millisecond before draining, you are done. I've cursed it many times.
2) The witch hurry-up doesn't pause while you are on the castle playfield...so if you miss the witch and go to the VUK instead the counter keeps going...do I flip on the castle playfield or let it fall off so I can finish the witch off?
3) That damn castle playfield...you get up there after knocking the guards down and drain off you have to knock the guards down again. It becomes really frustrating after capturing Dorothy and spelling Rescue, opening the door finally and draining off it. Have to start over on the guards and door...and really hope you don't accidentally hit the rescue loop to add a ball...now you have to spell rescue again and open the door! Rescue multiball is extremely difficult to start!
4) It seems that every time I get rainbow spelled locks or EC multiball is lit...so, I get stuck hitting the ramp and trying to juggle Twister and multiple balls. One or both always seems to be lost for me.
5) Fireball frenzy always seems to start with some other multiball for me...good luck avoiding the "fire" shots with multiple balls!
6) The spinning house hangs low on a corner and hits the ball if both in the right place...anyone else notice this?
7) During Melt the Witch, like clockwork, I always drain a ball after locking one in the VUK. ALWAYS.
That said...boy this is a fantastic game! I've wanted to slam a sledgehammer through it many times, but challenge is a good thing. I love it!

Add a second to the ball saver to compensate

As far as #6 that shouldn't happen? I would check the house is sitting properly on the spindle.

#41 4 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

I don't think that is normal. Something may be mounted wrong.

Want verify for me? Spin the house by hand and check out the ball clearances?

#42 4 years ago

I agree with pimp77 on most complaints. except I have no problem with the witch counter going during the castle, it make you choose between the two. My biggest complaint in that the witch counter keeps going during the throne room lock! I think is is a bug that should be fixed.

#4 is kinda a problem I wish could be fixed in code. I am getting better at trying to get the munchkin going while the ball save is active.

#43 4 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

6) The spinning house hangs low on a corner and hits the ball if both in the right place...anyone else notice this?

Do you mean when you plunge? Because mine gets hung up on something right there during plunge sometimes.

#44 4 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

Add a second to the ball saver to compensate
As far as #6 that shouldn't happen? I would check the house is sitting properly on the spindle.

It's not often...seems a slow roller MAY get hit, but a fast loop doesn't?

#45 4 years ago
Quoted from iamabearsfan:

Ok, can I complain too. The left side save is horribly hard compared to the Toto save. I don't even know why I try. Most times I can't even spell RAINBOW. It gives the false hope to the player. It just makes the death of the ball hurt that much more.

I've saved it twice from TNPLH in... OMG, I've had this thing a year. So in a year of playing it I have completed the task twice. That is just sad.

#46 4 years ago

"You serious, Clark?"--- Cousin Eddie

#47 4 years ago

JJP absolutely killed it with WOZ IMO. First pin ever by this company and fast forward to today (forget about any bumps in the road and all the garage- not what this thread is about) - it really is unbelievable that they created this pin.

Interactive toys, light show, LCD, colors, integrated theme, almost no expense seems to have been spared - I don't know that they will ever top it.

-10
#48 4 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

JJP absolutely killed it with WOZ IMO. First pin ever by this company and fast forward to today (forget about any bumps in the road and all the garage- not what this thread is about) - it really is unbelievable that they created this pin.
Interactive toys, light show, LCD, colors, integrated theme, almost no expense seems to have been spared - I don't know that they will ever top it.

JJP did some cool things with a lot of promise. The game lacks one major feature required of any good pinball machine. IT'S NO FUN!

#49 4 years ago
Quoted from usandthem:

JJP did some cool things with a lot of promise. The game lacks one major feature required of any good pinball machine. IT'S NO FUN!

You may not have enough plays in on it. How much have you played it? Where do you play it?

#50 4 years ago

I agree it is the best pin ever made.

But for me it aint the most fun pin. Due to theme and lay out.

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