(Topic ID: 73593)

WOZ Crapped itself **FIXED**

By wdpvideo

10 years ago


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  • 130 posts
  • 39 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Pinball69
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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#37 10 years ago
Quoted from jadziedzic:

The whole idea of needing a "reset switch" is lame. And obviously this start failure is not as rare as the great one believes if it happened to a couple of people within the last week or so. Someone - likely a kid - turns on the switch, nothing happens (computer is booting), and then they turn the switch off (and maybe on) as an instinctive reaction.
Someone at JJP should develop a watchdog board that whacks the CPU on the side of the head with a 2x4 - I mean, electronically presses the "reset switch" - if the mobo doesn't start running within a few seconds after power on.

a watchdog won't work on modern motherboards because they contain a built in voltage cutoff failsafe. Msi, Asus, etc.. Introduced it about 18 months ago to deal with power loss.

The reason this occurs is because the owner flips the power off/on in rapid succession. The failsafe in the motherboard treats this as a potential spike and doesn't honor the last power state. This ensures that no devices downstream of the mobo plugged into powered ports ( USB ) don't get destroyed in a surge. This is in direct response to mainstream complains about folks phones and other devices getting destroyed by surges. And before anyone asks this is a hardware interrupt. Not something that can be changed at a bios level.

Go check out the inside of any new arcade game that's pc based. All have a reset switch for this same reason.

#38 10 years ago
Quoted from jadziedzic:

Yes, really - three instances since Thanksgiving is not "rare", especially when you're dealing with a small sample size (at most a few hundred games across all Pinside owners). But please do go on deluding yourself that this is not a problem with the design ...

Ok big guy. You can go tell intel/msi/Asus that their design sucks.

I'm sure they will listen to you...

Right from the msi page below.

Owners need to count to 10 before powering their game back on after a cycle so the caps drain.

P.s. Lloyd stop being so delusional . It's those cold winters where you are.

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#40 10 years ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

I think this is just one of the negatives we have to deal with in order to get all the positives that come with this setup. Its the same with my flat screen hdtv and DirecTV. It takes about 10 seconds from the time I turn them on to the time I get that great picture and 300 channels of programming. It takes about 3 seconds between changing the channel and the picture and sound coming up. It can be frustrating considering I grew up with a tv that tuned in immediately when I turned it on and the channels changed immediately when I turned the knob. But I only had maybe 7 channels and I love Lucy was on 3 of them.

The only thing a user has to do to prevent it is turn the game off, count to 10 and turn it back on when they want to cycle it

#44 10 years ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

Well I know that and you know that but that little 7 year old stinker Nicholas apparently doesn't and although I told him not to touch it, the little bugger found the switch and did it anyway.

LOL! That I know ohh too well.

#47 10 years ago
Quoted from ChadH:

It makes sense that the motherboard does this safeguard. The problem is that the game should be designed to have easier access to the reset functionality.

The switch is inside the cage on purpose. To prevent folks on location from hitting it

the tag on the inside is pretty big with red bold letters that says "RESET" on it.

#48 10 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

Hey get me one of the staff shirts from the party and I'll be warmer.
LTG : )

Haha I don't even have a staff hoodie. I'm going to ask jack about that. Hahah.

#56 10 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

My complaint, as an owner, is that I have to come to Pinside or the JJP forums to get the info about waiting 10 seconds before restarting the game. This should be a bulletin that gets sent to registered owners. I don't want to have to stumble upon this stuff and after it came up the first time the warning should have been sent out.

It's going in the owners manual.

Also I've been saying here and on the JJP forum for 6 months when we found out the root cause of the power down from msi.

#57 10 years ago
Quoted from cal50:

On a PC its not a problem , building a game around the PC you still have the occasional PC problem/s but harder to reset easily. If the MB has remote pin outs running a remote reset switch and mounting it inside the coin door is an easy mod and WAY easier access.

Anyone can extend the reset switch if they choose. It's a simple instant on PC switch that essentially shorts 2 mins. Just extend the current one with some wire.

#66 10 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

You know this isn't rocket science. For an $8000 machine, JJP could spend an extra $30 and add an arduino. Use this sort of logic:
1) arduino is wired to PC power button
2) PC bios is set to stay off in case of power loss. This requires pressing power button to start PC.
3) when system is powered on, arduino gets power and powers up
4) arduino on boot up, closes power button switch for N milliseconds and opens it again. Arduino goes idle.
5) at power off, arduino and PC lose power so power off state is the same.
6) on next power on, #4 above will occur.
Should be permanently solved. No need for a reset switch, ever. There are probably similar circuits that could be built for even cheaper than an arduino.

$30 x 2000 machines = $60,000

$.25c x 2000 machines = $500

Both solve the same problem. (Which isn't even a problem if procedure is followed). Which would you go for if you were building a machine?

What everyone else who is suggesting a watchdog board also doesn't think about is this adds another point of possible failure. If that board is going to be in the chain then it has to be there for every single time the game boots. Now a few years down the road you have to worry about old cracking and cold solder joints and your game won't turn on. Now games are out of warranty and you have owners who may not be as tech savvy with a huge brick.

I'm an engineer like the rest of us and id love to make everything fully automated but sometimes the benefit doesn't outweigh both the risk and cost and that always has to be taken into account.

#67 10 years ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

Not sure what you mean by shorts for 2 mins. I shorted it manually for maybe a second with a screwdriver. I would appreciate instructions for a manual modification for us early pin owners who didn't have reset switches. If you could give us part #'s to buy and install that would be cool. As a very early buyer I knew there might be issues so no worries. I'm pretty handy with a soldering iron and DMM. Gotta say that the main reason I bought WOZ is for the family, and they absolutely love it and I am the coolest Uncle. Several of the kids asked their parents for a pinball machine for Christmas. Probably gonna be disappointed on that one. (edit: Because my siblings are not gonna spring for an expensive pinball machine)

That should have said short 2 pins not mins . Stupid iPhone.

If you don't have a reset switch I'll gladly send you one. It just plugs right into the motherboard. Take 60 seconds to install.

#70 10 years ago
Quoted from jadziedzic:

Stop thinking about home owners and starting thinking about games on location (NOT in a manned arcade like Lloyd's) with no access to the interior of the game. If a game on location gets into a "no start" condition for whatever reason and the operator has to send someone out to open the coin door to press a reset button, the first time it happens they'll be annoyed; if it happens again they'll be inclined to just leave the game alone until the next time they are out doing collections. The worst case condition (for JJP) is the operator calling his distributor and telling him take the game back.
All the explanations as to *why* the game can get into a no start condition are useless when the game on location is not earning for the operator. Arguments to "follow the procedure" are meaningless when dealing with games on location with no location owner access.
(And you *know* that once this sensitivity to manipulation becomes common knowledge there *will be* smart alecs who toy with games on location just to be a jerk.)

Wow. You're new here and these are your first posts? Very suspect.

I guess every arcade game has the same problems? I don't see them having the issue? On location games aren't power cycled abusively as they are normally on all day. And you are the only one to ever suggest that someone would vindictively power off and on the machine rapidly multiple times to make this occur.

You are either a little kid who can only think of cynicism or a dumb ass troll who's first posts here are on this topic? I'm leaning towards both.

Get a clue.

#72 10 years ago
Quoted from ChadH:

He has been a member since January 2013. This is not his first post either. Be nice. Not everyone posts everyday.

Look at his post count. It's less than 10 (8) with most of them being in this thread

2 FS posts and 6 trolling posts in this thread. That's it.

#77 10 years ago
Quoted from ChadH:

Really though... just make it easier for the operator/owner to find and press the reset button. And make it come that way from the factory.
I know it's a rare situation but apparently it is happening out there.
Alex, are you saying that The Hobbit will have the same setup for this reset functionality? If not, then you must concede that the way it is today is cumbersome and is worth improving upon.

Hobbit will likely have a reset button integrated into the inside of the coin door. It's too far along on woz to change it now.

#80 10 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Amazing to me that he still gets away with this person insult crap.

Coming from the league leader. How ironic. That halo around your head sure must be weighing heavily.

-2
#83 10 years ago
Quoted from ChadH:

This is good to hear. I feel like we've made a breakthrough.
Next time, why not just post something like... "Here is how to reset it (insert instructions). We are aware that it is cumbersome and all future JJP Pinball machines after WOZ will be redesigned to make the reset functionality easier for the owner/operator. In the meantime, we have posted a Service Bulletin about this on the official website (insert link). Thank you for your input."

I have many times in the past. When someones first post here is criticizing something he obviously hasn't researched and is just trying to stir up trouble especially with Lloyd, I take offence..

#84 10 years ago
Quoted from PW79:

Here is a clip of every WOZ thread
» YouTube video

I have never seen that movie. May be time to watch it

#88 10 years ago
Quoted from ChadH:

Do you have a link for where someone researching this could possibly find the official answer to the original question? Preferably a link to the official web site and not buried in a forum somewhere.

Sure:

http://support.jerseyjackpinball.com:8081/helpdesk/WebObjects/Helpdesk.woa/wa/FaqActions/view?faqId=2

In the JJP support portal available to customers. Here is the external link available to everyone.

#90 10 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

I think you know very well that I don't go around throwing personal insults. You, on the other hand, seem to dish is out on a daily basis. Of course you think I throw out personal insults because I call you out on yours. You just can't help yourself, can you?
How do you get away with it? Seriously. I'd like to know the answer to that. How can you specifically call someone a "dumb ass troll" and not get banned? Especially when you do it regularly?
I just don't get it.

That's right.. you didn't get banned before for it? You really think way too highly of yourself. If that's a "personal" insult you must have been coddled as a youngster. I don't know the guy "personally". Only his immediate online persona which by the very definition of the rules of this site is trolling.

"NO FLAMING OR TROLLING
On Pinside.com, flaming means posting something that's angry and mean-spirited - the online equivalent of flying off the handle. Trolls say deliberately provocative things just to stir up trouble - it's not polite, so please don't do it." <-- You do this daily.

And you are right, calling Lloyd "Delusional" doesn't fall within the above? I know it's probably hard to hear us down here from up on your high horse but try to understand. Given you are an attorney and it's your job to be argumentative it's almost impossible for you NOT to be in violation of the rules.

#92 10 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Alex, Joe has been around the hobby for a very long time. I bought a Farfalla off him ten years ago. He knows what he's talking about. Don't judge people solely by their time on this site. I've been playing since the 80s and collecting since the 90s, yet only been on this site a couple years. Many people choose not to post here at all due to all the bullshit. Just sayin'

Then before flaming Lloyd who has been around significantly longer than that he should have done his homework and not called him delusional. It was rude and actually showed his lack of concern for facts prior to posting.

Starting his first post like this "The whole idea of needing a "reset switch" is lame." when he has no understanding of the reasoning or need immediately casts a doubt on his intentions and/or understanding. Then after Lloyd explained the problem we went on to call him delusional. Regardless of his time in the hobby it's people like this that start all the bullshit.

#95 10 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Thanks for clarifying Alex.
If I had known that you didn't know the guy "personally" I never would have thought that calling him a "dumb ass troll" was a personal attack.
It all makes sense now.

Since I don't know you "personally", I can call you a dumb ass too, right? Not a personal attack because I don't know you personally.
Dumb ass.

Thats perfectly fine. It's an internet forum nothing more. Grow some skin.

#97 10 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

I just read his post... where did he call Lloyd delusional or flame him?? All he did was say you should fix this before it gets abused on location. Are you drinking, or have you been up all night with no sleep? Seriously, this is weird...

[jadziedzic said:
And obviously this start failure is not as rare as the great one believes if it happened to a couple of people within the last week or so.]

[Really ?

I'm only speaking from 7 months experience doing JJP tech support. What do I know.

LTG : )]

[jadziedzic said:
Yes, really - three instances since Thanksgiving is not "rare", especially when you're dealing with a small sample size (at most a few hundred games across all Pinside owners). But please do go on deluding yourself that this is not a problem with the design ...]

There it goes.. He also referred to Lloyd as "The great one" in a nasty way. And there is no design flaw. The motherboard is working as intended and this is the same mechanism used by EVERY modern arcade game. A reset switch is inside the cabinet should this happen. Guitar Hero, Fruit Ninja, Etc.. It's just the nature of the protections built into the systems. Just a TAD bit of research or asking a question as to why would have been better than his responses.

P.S. I don't drink.

#103 10 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

Is 1.24 available?

not yet.. waiting on a final revision. Some really good stuff even aside from content in the release like the fix for crystal ball disconnects.

#106 10 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

hours? tomorrow?

Probably 2 hrs.. maybe a little less. All depends on how quick the upload goes.. packaging now. You will likely have it for your 7pm party.

#108 10 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Hey Alex, sorry if I added fuel to this fire on the reset issue. I respect you and the work you do. As you know I was hit with the reset issue myself and was able to figure it out once you told me what to look for. (I mounted a reset button inside). I really think its a pretty easy perm solution though and was coming at this more from an overall interested engineering perspective.
If it were me, I think I'd have a push button power switch and have it turn the computer on. Then I think I'd have a smart power strip type circuit so when the computer started up, the rest of the system came alive. (This is how I wired my CCC and my video pin). Then to turn off you hit the power button again and PC shuts down. When it powers off, smart power circuit kills power to the rest. Could have PC default to power on on power loss for those that power on with a breaker.

That is certainly a way to do it and it would be very easy to do. We would have to be careful as to its function because that's not how ACPI works on motherboards. One thing that is coming is a new power supply we are working on that will handle the "brownout" scenario internally but the reset button may be there just in case. There are instances where the OS (kernel level) will issue a sig 0 in an effort to protect the OS which is a gentle halt. Normally you would just cycle the PC and that would fix it but in this case the remaining power in the machine would be on as its separate from the mobo/atx. You would still need a way to ensure that it comes back on without a forced hard cycle.

We are getting creative on how to handle these nuances. None of which are showstoppers but certainly can be annoying.

#111 10 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

is there a link on prepping the drive on a Mac? Sorry but I always f it up.

Taylor,

go into "Disk Utility" on the mac with your USB stick inserted. Click on the stick on the left.

Click "Erase" and then make sure msdos/fat is selected and erase it (format it)

#115 10 years ago
Quoted from PappyBoyington:

MS-DOS(FAT) is how it looks in disk utility right Alex? I'm on a Mac too.
thanks
pappy

I believe so... Checking

#116 10 years ago

Yes that's correct Pappy. MS-DOS (FAT) on a mac and FAT32 on windows.

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