"magnet cores get ignored"

Sounds like you answered your own question in regards to why those Stern play fields got wore so bad that they needed replaced. And it has nothing to do with they quality of wood or amount of ply's.

Yeah the outlane save modes were fun the first few games but I got tired of them being one of the very few things to do. These software updates are bringing in a small amount of newness each time but those that have them or play them get tired of everything before the updates. I like playing a new game and figuring it out which takes time, sometimes a lot of time... Woz won't take time to figure out because after each update there are only a few new things and they are learned very quickly.

Literally?

I think most people will agree that higher quality doesn't mean the game will be more fun. Still, it's hard not to consider the relative build qualities of two games when they are selling for similar prices.

For example, you may not think a $30 metal Cross pen writes as well as a $1 BIC pen, even though better more costly materials were used for the Cross pen's contruction. Because of this, you may not think the Cross pen is worth $30, but would you want to spend $30 for the BIC?

To me, the quality of a product comes in many forms. Some are known, like the materials used. Some become known over time, like failure rates and customer service.

I don't think things that are purely a matter of personal preference, like "fun factor" or aesthetics, should be confused with quality. 

Of course, the "fun factor" can have a huge effect on the value of a game. But since it's subjective and both of the major manufacturers continue to develop the game rules long after machines are released, I don't know how helpful it is to even consider it when making any sweeping generalizations as to a game's value shortly after a game is released.

I think it will take some time (maybe years) after a game's rules stabilize and the hype/anti-hype trains wind down to determine any kind of consensus as to a game's "fun factor" and hence it's effect on a game's value. 

Literally. I wish I had a cameraphone back then. It was big enough the ball could fall outside the scoop. I assume they simply never replaced the balls, and the constant metal-on-metal contact with the VUK turned them into 200 grit sandpaper balls. Add in a humid environment (amusement park arcade) that encouraged swelling of the exposed wood, and that playfield was doomed.

Dude, this thread was started as a comment *and* comparison of build quality. And it makes total sense to compare build quality to the only other current manufacturer of pins, esp. because they are in a similar price range. Some people think value is important, along with fun factor of course. I'd feel ripped off buying a new Stern game based on the corner-cutting approach they are taking while raising prices. IMO every game since (and including) Avatar or RS has looked and felt lighter, flimsier, more plasticy.

Also, people are focusing on the various WOZ issues. It's the first game from a startup, first appearance of a new platform and first use of an entire new assembly line and workers. And they are still adjusting and correcting things mid-stream. Does anyone not think that Hobbit will have fewer delays and fewer production issues? OTOH, Stern is well-established. They have far less excuse for putting out weak/problematic components. Unless they switched over to a new hardware system, lcd display, etc. But then they'd price themselves out of the general market to maintain their profit margins.

So yeah, when it comes to company-specific build quality, a comparison makes total sense.

You do know how big a softball is, right?

totally agree and is this the thing that makes me just want to lower the head until code is somewhat done. EC and Rescue MBs are fun to stack but what's the point? You beat the MBs and then your roadblocked by the incomplete code. I cannot even figure out if my game is working as Im not sure which inserts are suppose to be working or not.

Yep, I've seen them. It might have been a bit smaller than a softball, but much bigger than a baseball. How big is a pop-bumper cap, anyway... http://tinyurl.com/k5b7jes

OOf, sorry to hear that. I lived that nightmare with Xmen and its just frustrating.

Has anyone examined how standard Williams flippers work with a thicker playfield?

I've seen where people put too much clear coat on and the Williams flippers won't work.

Okay that is all I needed to hear. You are willing to overlook some of the short comings of one company but not the other. I am an unbiased regarding this situation. I can tell you for a fact I do not feel ripped off by some of the newer Sterns I've had in any way. I can also tell you that I don't cut slack for one but not the other. I expect the same from both a fun playing pin that is reliable. IMO you have been and continue to be biased in this debate. Just an observation/opinion as always I can and will agree to disagree.

Hey Scot i notice you have SM rated a 10! News flash it wasnt born that way... It became a great game after the code was completed and if my memory serves me right that code took some time to develop.

This is not at all true.

I have a WOZ playfield and it is the same thickness as any other game in my collection.

*

Like all the other WOZ threads, the fanboys fill it with nonsense until it the septic tank overflows.

But the DNA was there, it just had to mature!

Uggg. This is so typical.

Some guys like heavy, like a 300 lb. wife over a 100 lb. wife.
Sturdier and heavier built = not always better.

Keep you warmer in the winter too !

LTG : )

....and harder to kidnap.

It *is* thicker. Not by much after sanding, but it starts off life as 11-ply 3/4", while Stern uses 7-ply 5/8" (and then dropped down to 5-ply for a few years, but I hear they might be back to 7-ply this summer).

BTW. It's not very nice to say that everyone positive towards WOZ/JJP (ie. "the fanboys") are filling WOZ threads with sh*t (we all know what goes in a septic tank and what you're trying to say), especially when you haven't proven the point you're complaining about to be false.

Well a thicker playfield is great.....if I am going to be sitting on it.

If its flat and smooth it plays the same. Maybe we can wire one up to an oscilloscope and compare cabinet harmonics and other intangible traits.

As someone pointed out earlier, thin plywood can warp simply from its own weight over time. With all the mini-playfields and solid steel attached to WOZ, thicker/more rigid plywood is pretty much a necessity. Plus, when you pull one of the thinner Sterns out and the playfield is bending and warping as you lift it up (despite WOZ's extreme weight, it has very little such movement), do you think all that flex is good for everything installed on the playfield? The glue holding the inserts in? Large plastics screwed to the surface?

You may consider such non-gameplay-impacting qualities to be "intangible", but if that were the only consideration in how to design a pinball, then why did some people see fit to complain about plastic aprons and playfield pegs and big dots on screened artwork, and why do they like metal ramps and wireforms, LED bulbs and custom moulded toys... it's because quality is nice to have, and having a company put thought and money into the materials being used in the construction of a product is not something to be berated, whether that company's name begins with "J" or "S".

Did not read this whole thread but YES they are freekin heavy. And YES after delivering the first couple HANDS DOWN they are very solid and well built inside and out, top to bottom. I agree in the early statement that the Sterns are built well, but the WOZ is a whole different ball game. So far having my hands in a few of them I'm impressed with them. Video, Sound, Cosmetics all outstanding and MUCH better than anything in the past. Game play, don't ask me. The first 3 we had left in a few days so we were never able to get a floor model set up. Waiting on more....

I hate to tell you but thick or thin wood still warps, just becasue its thicker does not exempt it from environmental conditions not favorable to any wood. If you are concerned about inserts I would be focused on the mounting and adhesive used because lifting the playfiled for service has never to my knowledge damaged inserts on games that I am aware of.

My RFM had a plastic apron and it was designed as such becasue it lit up like a Christmas tree from the flashers. P2K was built like a tank, even with the "plastic" apron. Its a cosmetic item and a damn nice one.

I have been involved in precision machining and manufacturing for the last 33 years so spare me the lecture on design, build quality and material usage. WOZ is a well built machine and no one is claiming its not. It does however have some issues that are emerging and noting that cant be "fixed" either by a revision at the factory or by the owners /ops if they feel the need. Collectors will make pampered changes while most ops just want the lights on to accept $$$

Mines bigger........neener . neener.

It does help at least a little (otherwise I'm sure Stern would've tried 1/3" during the cutback years). As does having additional layers.

Odd. I guess Stern's doing it backwards then. Should be plastic on LE, steel on pros.

I have been involved in precision machining and manufacturing for the last 33 years so spare me the lecture on design, build quality and material usage.

Did you even read your reply?

It's a good thing you clarified now that you're an expert, because I wasn't able to guess through the sarcasm.

WOZ is a well built machine and no one is claiming its not. It does however have some issues that are emerging and noting that cant be "fixed" either by a revision at the factory or by the owners /ops if they feel the need. Collectors will make pampered changes while most ops just want the lights on to accept $$$

So... WOZ is well built... playfield may or may not be thicker... such things are intangible anyways... don't lecture you on materials or build quality... nothing's perfect... assume sarcastic = expert... check.

What do you have against discussing things? I like people with experience, information, facts, history, and examples. Learning something new from such knowledgeable individuals is a pleasure, not an inconvenience.

BTW. You thumbs-downed my post stating that the plywood is thicker. Am I incorrect on that?

Cal looking at your posting history it appears your on any and all WOZ threads like a rat on a Cheeto... What is your motivation? Funny how your absent on any and all MET threads where it seems that they are having their share of hammer, magnet, board, playfield wear and other issues.
The only reason I mention these other threads/games with issues is that...

(Sarcasm on)
"YOU have been involved in precision machining and manufacturing for the last 33 years" I'm NOT meaning to lecture you, BUT it seems unfair that all of us WOZ guys are getting so much of your attention (it could be perceived as favoritism) so maybe you could share that wealth of knowledge with some of the other good members of these forums. (sarcasm off)

Did you abandon stalking Teekee?

give it a break. its a pinball machine.

I have read a lot of the back & forth from lovers and haters on both sides. I have no preference to any company and I do not see myself buying any more NIB games, Stern or JJP.

If the only way to feel good about something it to put something down then continue on.

But is that what's happening here? Is pointing out the component differences of one product compared to a less expensive product "putting down" the less expensive product... or is it simply stating facts? Should one not EXPECT a more expensive product to have improved build quality? Should we not be complaining if we saw the exact same grade of components being used?

The plywood is slightly thicker. Thus it costs more. It weighs more. It flexes less. What's the motivation to argue that this is meaningless, and that what Stern's using is good enough? Since when is "good enough" a worthy goal for a new company trying to make a name for themselves with a luxury product?

Yes, there are issues that need to be worked out no doubt... but if every new pinball company's design goal was to be "no different than Stern", then they're all doomed to failure.

This is a sad statement to say the least.

Concreathead,
Every time a guy talks some crap on WOZ you attack him personally. You just did it to Cal, you did it to the guy with playfield issues on the other thread and of course teekee et .
It's just wired . Can't yiu ignore address the issue instead of reply by attacking the person ?
At least Sunfix counters with well thought out posts but you literally just go at the person. I am even shocked its aloud.

Pre coffee post?

Hwawonyu,
My above post to Cal was about as much of a "personal attack" as you calling me "Concreat head" in your post. Sorry that you missed that I was being sarcastic in my post to Cal, I have edited my post to show that. I also edited my post on the playfield issue to say "give JJP a call"

If I "personally attacked" TeeKee it was completely unintentional as I have nothing but respect for the guy.(Not being sarcastic here by the way) Tony is a good guy!

lol, I swear I typed concrete heart. Iphone!! That certainly kills my position. All good. Just came across odd where you usually discuss and suddenly looked like you were lashing out a bit.

I don't know... this just seemed like it was worth repeating.

Hwawonyu, It doesn't kill your position at all! as I thought about things this morning I realized I was being a bit of a "Concrete Head" I am going to try harder to stay positive! Sometimes I can be a little too sarcastic for my own good. Sounds crazy but I appreciate you calling me on it because I don't want to be know as a bad egg around here.
I have said it before and I will say it again if we were all in a room together (preferably a room full of pinball machines and with beer on tap) I think we would get along great and differences would be instantly thrown aside.

AMEN!

We need more of that : )

true!
it's all about the game and gameplay! not it's weight.

but i think i read it somewhere, if you put some rocks inside a Stern cabinet you get instant quality improvement. Maybe that will help the guys that think Stern is crap.

I agree with many of the arguments here on both sides. As far as build quality heavier doesn't necessarily mean better but in the case of the playfield their certainly is a minimum needed which varies from pin to pin. The playfield on my NIB TSPP was too weak to support the weight of all the playfield components. When I would lift the playfield I had to support it with one hand and lift with the other or it would buckle and literally start to crease in the middle. This is not at all an issue with WOZ even with its heavier playfield components. The rails and playfield support/lifting mech is far superior as well. I don't consider this opinion but rather a fact.

On my WOZ there are some little things that are part of build quality that my TSPP did not suffer from. Things that don't line up quite right like the lockdown bar mech and the backbox hinge mech that are a pain in the butt to deal with and required tweaking just to get to work. The previously mentioned crappy looking playfield planking that found its way into my WOZ. This certainly detracts from build quality but I am only comparing the two brand new games I have owned.

Now onto gameplay which is of course not fact but opinion. Metallica in its earliest code was still really fun to play but WOZ not so much. The shots in Metallica are just more satisfying taking code or rules out of the equation. WOZ shots are getting better as code has come along but I pretty much stopped playing WOZ a few days after I got it(High score over 400K). I feel that I will sour on the game unless I wait for the rules to be essentially completed and learn them as I go as opposed to getting a few more crumbs upon each software release. I do not feel that way with Metallica. If I had to do it over again I would have used the money I spent on WOZ and gotten a Metallica Pro and a LOTR. OR wait for TH because it looks promising.

It is screened and clear coated.

Now they may have done like Williams did and put vinyl over the wood and screened that. Not sure the exact process other than they are screened and not decaled.

LTG : )

Jack said in one of his speeches that the cabs were digitally printed, not silkscreened.

Are you saying he went back to screening?

Direct printed. Clearcoated. Proprietary and exclusive process for JJP.

Done by the company Charlie of Spooky Pinball used to work for (he singlehandedly created and ran their "pinball division" until leaving earlier this year to start his own pinball company).

No, I'm saying I don't know the difference between screen or direct printed.

LTG : )